twa Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 So, was Jesus wealthy ? He had his health Oh and his Father was obviously a rancher Psalm 50:10 (New International Version) 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickalino Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 but I think the most important thing is we have many people discussing religious differences in a civil manner! We all know how rare that is Now.....can we try to accomplish that in a politics thread ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I agree with Jumbo, but will also like to say that even though i rarely participate in the theological threads, we've got some really smart people on the subject, and these threads usually spur them into excellent discussion. Techboy never fails to teach me something, even if i don't agree with the basic premise. Kudos all 'round ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickalino Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Oh and his Father was obviously a rancher Psalm 50:10 (New International Version) 10 for every animal of the forest is mine, and the cattle on a thousand hills. Well, ya gotta own some cattle and animals, if you're gonna deliver your people into the land of Milk and Honey -- Exodus 3: 8 And I am come down to deliver them out of the hand of the Egyptians, and to bring them up out of that land unto a good land and a large, unto a land flowing with milk and honey: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Now.....can we try to accomplish that in a politics thread ? Asking for a miracle as a sign? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I The Bible also says suicide is immediate rejection to Heaven chapter and verse? Did you know Jesus? Did he say these things to you? Ever play the telephone game? Things get manipulated and changed as they get passed down and the Church has been shown many times to manipulate things to suit their needs. the bible has been shown to be recorded very well, actually. thats due to the fact that you can check later manuscripts with early manuscripts - and there are more bible manuscripts than any other ancient writing. you can knock the message, but its faithfulness to the original message is pretty much iron clad. (scripture reliability is probably what made me give in and become a christian, despite my reluctance- much like c. s. lewis.) tech boy can (and has) spoken on this is much more detail and more eloquently than i. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mickalino Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Asking for a miracle as a sign? So if it happens in a political thread, then everyone will believe that "there is a God" and then they'll ALL participate in the religious threads Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 So if it happens in a political thread, then everyone will believe that "there is a God" and then they'll ALL participate in the religious threads No ,not everyone ...not even if dead rose to tell them. Anyhoo...back to the topic ..Jesus had health,wisdom and family and followed his Fathers instruction....I think he was very well off irregardless of any money issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bang Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 No ,not everyone ...not even if dead rose to tell them.Anyhoo...back to the topic ..Jesus had health,wisdom and family and followed his Fathers instruction....I think he was very well off irregardless of any money issue. True, wealth comes in many forms. And since the Bible is filled with metaphors, you might just have hit the nail squarely on the head. ~Bang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AsburySkinsFan Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 The Bible also says suicide is immediate rejection to Heaven Where? Make sure you're quoting the Bible and not the Catholic theology you were taught in school. Your argument is flawed. You cannot say the Bible is the word of God because the Bible says so. My argument uses history and literary analysis to support my belief. My argument is a faith based argument which is what this whole matter is about, faith. You are not believing him. You are believing a mans account of what he remembers Jesus saying. Did you know Jesus? Did he say these things to you? Ever play the telephone game? Things get manipulated and changed as they get passed down and the Church has been shown many times to manipulate things to suit their needs. The Church has been more of a political entity throughout history than almost anyone else. You think politics do not corrupt the message? Sorry, but the accuracy of the oral traditions are in many cases just as accurate as any written account, this is WAY different than the telephone game where you hear something once and then quickly pass it on, these accounts were told and retold through liturgy, song and story, they were passed on from one generation to the next faithfully. The fact that you equate oral tradition to the telephone game again tips your hand to the fact that you don't really know what's going on. Oh...and for Jumbo No, he was not wealthy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxBuddy21 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 chapter and verse? 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are." If God destroys you for killing yourself, somehow I doubt you get into heaven after that one. The bible has been shown to be recorded very well, actually. thats due to the fact that you can check later manuscripts with early manuscripts - and there are more bible manuscripts than any other ancient writing. you can knock the message, but its faithfulness to the original message is pretty much iron clad. (scripture reliability is probably what made me give in and become a christian, despite my reluctance- much like c. s. lewis.) tech boy can (and has) spoken on this is much more detail and more eloquently than i. Dont get me wrong, I agree the message is still there but its the semantics and such surrounding the message that get lost or changed through translations. The minor details that some people cling so desparately to is where the differences arise. People who spend too much time focusing on those things instead of the overall message are the ones that miss the point! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxBuddy21 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Now.....can we try to accomplish that in a politics thread ? Wouldnt that be a miracle. Imagine what would get accomplished if people could discuss differences and understand other view points in politics. There would be no need for political parties and we might actually get things accomplished! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talk show host Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 chapter and verse?the bible has been shown to be recorded very well, actually. thats due to the fact that you can check later manuscripts with early manuscripts - and there are more bible manuscripts than any other ancient writing. you can knock the message, but its faithfulness to the original message is pretty much iron clad. (scripture reliability is probably what made me give in and become a christian, despite my reluctance- much like c. s. lewis.) tech boy can (and has) spoken on this is much more detail and more eloquently than i. excellent post. i've found that people who criticize the accuracy of current bible translations or claim the bible contradicts itself are merely repeating baseless claims they've heard others made. Just like there are people who make claims about what the bible says based soley on church theology they've been taught, there are those who take the opposite approach. the same thing actually applies in "The Stadium." it amazes me how so many people here become adamant about how good or bad a college player is based soley on what they've heard others say. If people are going to make defninative statements, they should investigate them themselves: whether its the bible, sports, or anything else. There's nothing that will make someone look dumber than pretending theyre an expert in something that they really know nothing about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DRSmith Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I hope no one takes this the wrong way, but as often happens in these threads after a few days, anyone clicking on to read about the topic will not find it really being discussed in recent posts. Its basically becomes a random/general theological discussion "hijack" by a select and specific "group." I'm somewhat loathe to point this out as I enjoy seeing enthusiastic and member-appreciated activity. On the other hand, when others do it we usually act. I also enjoy seeing anything that has educational possibilites in any normal subject area, as these exchanges can provide. And most every thread has it's share of off-topic diversions, but in these case, it literally becomes a different thread with no title change to alert the reader and the original topic becomes functionally inoperative. Maybe start a thread of "Bible interpretations?" in general or for specifics? I'm not "directing" anything right now, just pointing out a community/board matter and bringing it to awareness for anyone's consideration. Normally in a case where a thread runs off-topic enough, we close it and post a suggestion that the "new discussion" get it's own thread. But given the benign and informative nature of this still-vaguely-related digression I thought I'd just do this instead to get ya'all thinking about such for now and the future. I think in some cases bible translation could be brought into something like this, when I read the goals of the conservative bible project I could see it really lend itself to the idea of wealth and health teachers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxBuddy21 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Where? Make sure you're quoting the Bible and not the Catholic theology you were taught in school. See previous post My argument is a faith based argument which is what this whole matter is about, faith. Faith without reason is ignorance. Studying theology you should know that. Faith means believing something when there is no other rationale explanation. It does not mean believing it in contrast to facts. Do you also believe evolution is a myth? Do you believe the earth was literally created in six days? Or do you believe the creation story is an allegorical story to help illustrate our place in the world? Thats another reason supporting my belief the Bible is not the word of God but is instead mans interpretation of God's word. The creation story was stolen from a polytheistic faith. The story was used because many people in the area were part of the polytheistic religion and they kept things that were familiar to them but transformed it into a monotheistic story. I have read the original story and its clearly the same story with one God replacing the many Gods. If its the word of God, how did that happen? Sorry, but the accuracy of the oral traditions are in many cases just as accurate as any written account, this is WAY different than the telephone game where you hear something once and then quickly pass it on, these accounts were told and retold through liturgy, song and story, they were passed on from one generation to the next faithfully. The fact that you equate oral tradition to the telephone game again tips your hand to the fact that you don't really know what's going on. I agree oral tradition is much stronger and I do know very well how oral traditions are learned and passed. When do you do that over thousands of years, people take their own twist on things and incorprate them into the story. As stories are translated from language to language, the meaning of certain things gets lost. Its not like these are stories that were passed down from father to son since 1900. These have been around for thousands of years yet you still think everything is 100% accurate as it was originally intended? You are naive if you believe that. The general message is the same but the details are not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxBuddy21 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 excellent post. i've found that people who criticize the accuracy of current bible translations or claim the bible contradicts itself are merely repeating baseless claims they've heard others made. Just like there are people who make claims about what the bible says based soley on church theology they've been taught, there are those who take the opposite approach. the same thing actually applies in "The Stadium." it amazes me how so many people here become adamant about how good or bad a college player is based soley on what they've heard others say. If people are going to make defninative statements, they should investigate them themselves: whether its the bible, sports, or anything else. There's nothing that will make someone look dumber than pretending theyre an expert in something that they really know nothing about. People who ignore the clear contradictions in the bible are naive. There are contradictions between the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke. All three told similar stories but some of the details vary. If this is the word of God, how could that be? Sounds more to me like 3 guys remembering the same story a little differently like all people do. The basic premise is the same but some of the details are shaky. The word of God would not be flawed like that. All three stories would be identical if they were the word of God would they not? Why does each emphasize different things they felt were important? Maybe because they are human and we all view whats important a little differently? The fact is the Bible was written by man and man is flawed therefore the Bible is flawed. Doesnt mean the message is lost or it is not a useful tool to help people in their knowledge and understanding of God. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talk show host Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 People who ignore the clear contradictions in the bible are naive. There are contradictions between the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke. All three told similar stories but some of the details vary. If this is the word of God, how could that be? Sounds more to me like 3 guys remembering the same story a little differently like all people do. The basic premise is the same but some of the details are shaky. The word of God would not be flawed like that. All three stories would be identical if they were the word of God would they not? Why does each emphasize different things they felt were important? Maybe because they are human and we all view whats important a little differently? The fact is the Bible was written by man and man is flawed therefore the Bible is flawed. Doesnt mean the message is lost or it is not a useful tool to help people in their knowledge and understanding of God. I get your point about people telling the same story from different points of view... but offereing different details is not the same as a contradiction. I've never found a single contradiction in the bible. Please name one that you beleive you've found. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."If God destroys you for killing yourself, somehow I doubt you get into heaven after that one. How is ending your life defiling the Temple? Flesh is material,whereas your soul and the Spirit of God are not. By that reasoning any choice against God's will is defiling the Temple. Are you saying life itself is holy and the repository of the Holy Spirit? On Topic;) He had armies of thousands at his call,he was obviously not poor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxBuddy21 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I get your point about people telling the same story from different points of view... but offereing different details is not the same as a contradiction. I've never found a single contradiction in the bible. Please name one that you beleive you've found. I already stated one earlier regarding suicide. If you kill yourself, God will destroy you but Jesus tells Judas he will see him in Heaven but Judas commits suicide. How is that not a contradiction? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LaxBuddy21 Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 How is ending your life defiling the Temple?Flesh is material,whereas your soul and the Spirit of God are not. By that reasoning any choice against God's will is defiling the Temple. Are you saying life itself is holy and the repository of the Holy Spirit? On Topic;) He had armies of thousands at his call,he was obviously not poor. Your body is the temple. A temple is a physical vessel. How is destroying the temple not defiling it? Is it ok to burn a church down as long as you dont piss on the ashes? lol Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
talk show host Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 I already stated one earlier regarding suicide. If you kill yourself, God will destroy you but Jesus tells Judas he will see him in Heaven but Judas commits suicide. How is that not a contradiction? 1. Your statement on suicide is open to interpretation. The bible clearly says that human life is sacred and that murderers (and murder includes suicide) will not inherit everlasting life. But you can't make a blanket statement that God will destroy everyone who kills themselves like that that isnt clearly stated in the scriptures. What if someone sees a bomb in a crowded theater and, knowing it would go off in 5 seconds, decides to pick up the bomb and take it outside - saving everyone in the theater - and subsequently dies, as opposed to running out and saving his own life? Technically, that person killed himself. What about people who are mentally insane and take their own lives? What of those who commit murder, but later are truly repent, convert, and change their lives? you can't judge those people. God does. There is no contradiction in the Bible. The contradiction lies in humans trying to make a hard-fast rule where none exists and applying it to all situations. 2. Where does Jesus tell Judas he'll see him in heaven? Is it before or after Judas began stealing money and ultimately betrayed Jesus? The bible says that only those who are faithful "to the end" will be saved. Judas obviously wasnt. Again, there is no contradiction. the apparent contradiction only exists to those who take statements out of context or have the incorrect understanding about what a scripture is saying to begin with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 Your body is the temple. A temple is a physical vessel. How is destroying the temple not defiling it? Is it ok to burn a church down as long as you dont piss on the ashes? lol No a Temple is a physical structure...a building You can't burn down a 'Church' in my estimation,only a building dedicated to God I'm one of those that believe where two or three are gathered together in His name He is there. Since you brought up the temple There were different areas where different levels of sin was tolerable,but one that was very restricted where the Spirit of God visited. A analogy for our body and soul? (the soul being where the Spirit resides) on topic;) How could a man that was so loved that men willingly died in his name be considered poor?...Cash is not King:) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 1 Corinthians 3:16-17 "Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you? If any man defile the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are."If God destroys you for killing yourself, somehow I doubt you get into heaven after that one. eh, to me, thats pretty ambiguous. i'm not saying suicide makes God happy- just that it seems to be more of a catholic teaching than one specifically derived from the bible. Dont get me wrong, I agree the message is still there but its the semantics and such surrounding the message that get lost or changed through translations. The minor details that some people cling so desparately to is where the differences arise. People who spend too much time focusing on those things instead of the overall message are the ones that miss the point! 100% agree- people get very hung up on the small stuff. 'baptized in the name of jesus, or in the name of the father, son, holy spirit'??? huh? really? :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grego Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 People who ignore the clear contradictions in the bible are naive. There are contradictions between the Gospels of Mark, Matthew and Luke. All three told similar stories but some of the details vary. If this is the word of God, how could that be? Sounds more to me like 3 guys remembering the same story a little differently like all people do. The basic premise is the same but some of the details are shaky. The word of God would not be flawed like that. All three stories would be identical if they were the word of God would they not? Why does each emphasize different things they felt were important? Maybe because they are human and we all view whats important a little differently? The fact is the Bible was written by man and man is flawed therefore the Bible is flawed. Doesnt mean the message is lost or it is not a useful tool to help people in their knowledge and understanding of God. actual 'contradictions'- meaning both cannot be true- arent quite that common. but, i've always looked at it as 4 witnesses accounts, which is what they claim to be- which will virtually always differ when you get down to specific details. now, if the bible claimed to be the book or mormon, or koran- 'delivered' to mankind in a very different way, i would agree that discrepancies are not favorable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dan T. Posted December 31, 2009 Share Posted December 31, 2009 excellent post. i've found that people who criticize the accuracy of current bible translations or claim the bible contradicts itself are merely repeating baseless claims they've heard others made. I'm not so sure. I recommend Erhman is a religious scholar and a leading authority on ancient texts of the bible. He reached adulthood as an evangelical Christian, and his beliefs changed over time with his intensive study of early Christianity and the various ancient Biblical texts. His conclusions in the book aren't a refutation of Christianity, but do call into question how well ancient scribes accurately reproduced succeeding generations of the Biblical texts. Here's a Wiki summary of Misquoting Jesus: The book describes an early Christian environment in which the books that would later compose the New Testament were copied by hand, mostly by Christian amateurs. Ehrman concludes that various early scribes altered the New Testament texts in order to deemphasize the role of women in the early church, to unify and harmonize the different portrayals of Jesus in the four gospels, and to oppose certain heresies (such as Adoptionism). Ehrman contends that certain widely-held Christian beliefs, such about the divinity of Jesus, are associated not with the original words of scripture but with these later alterations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Archived
This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.