CNN: Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy?

[Vicious]

just have a little respect for those who do

Why? Why should I show you respect when you spit in the face of progress? Why should I show you respect when Religious fervor strikes down advancements in humanity like stem cells? Why should I show respect to terrorists? Why should I show respect to people that even when confronted with our modern knowledge choose instead to hide behind myth and do horrendous things to each other for an Afterlife that does not exist?

[polywog999]

Why? Why should I show you respect when you spit in the face of progress? Why should I show you respect when Religious fervor strikes down advancements in humanity like stem cells? Why should I show respect to terrorists? Why should I show respect to people that even when confronted with our modern knowledge choose instead to hide behind myth and do horrendous things to each other for an Afterlife that does not exist?

Lol! OK Sid, I admit...It's all my fault! I am the one who did all that stuff, but you are more hateful and intolerant than any Zealot that I have ever encountered. You think all this crap you brought up is because of god? Yes, perhaps most of it, even. Still I'm awfully glad you aren't in charge of this shin-dig!

So, favor me with some of this "modern knowledge."

[endzone_dave]

Baptizing people, where in the entire New Testament does it once say that Jesus ever baptized anyone?

John 3:22

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.

Soon after Jesus said that unless you are born of water and the Spirit, you can't enter the Kingdom of God. Of course most Protestants think these two verses, only 17 verses apart, are completely unrelated.

[polywog999]

John 3:22

22After this, Jesus and his disciples went out into the Judean countryside, where he spent some time with them, and baptized.

Soon after Jesus said that unless you are born of water and the Spirit, you can't enter the Kingdom of God. Of course most Protestants think these two verses, only 17 verses apart, are completely unrelated.

You have to hand it to him though... he's usually spot on!

[Vicious]

So, favor me with some of this "modern knowledge."

What's the matter, can't read a book that isn't regurgitated for you by a guy at a podium asking for money?

[polywog999]

What's the matter, can't read a book that isn't regurgitated for you by a guy at a podium asking for money?

Once again you make the assumption that I am a church goer. You need to give it up Vicious and you are dangerously close to trolling. Have respect on here dude, It's a requirement.

Actually, my favorite book is Steven Hawking's "A brief history of time."

[alexey]

Why? Why should I show you respect when you spit in the face of progress? Why should I show you respect when Religious fervor strikes down advancements in humanity like stem cells? Why should I show respect to terrorists? Why should I show respect to people that even when confronted with our modern knowledge choose instead to hide behind myth and do horrendous things to each other for an Afterlife that does not exist?

Because there is more to religion than that. It channels deep, fundamental aspects of humanity. Yes there is a great deal of ugliness there, but there is also a very human and a very humanizing side of it.

So let's say in 100 years vast majority of the civilized world switches to something like Humanism. At that point, do you think they will look at believers as "poor retards" (pardon my French) or will they appreciate common values of human dignity, appreciation of wonders of life, etc?

It may be that a great deal of your frustration about religion comes from the role it plays in US politics. I also find it hard to remain respectful when viewing religion from that perspective. Yet however hard it may be, I think it is important that we remain respectful and try to focus on things we have in common in order for our society to work as intended.

As a side note, I'd love a federal mandate to teach Paleontology in public schools

[jnhay]

This is sort of off-topic, but related. Today at work I had a package of books that titled "New Revised Standard Version Bible", and something referring to how it was accurate and trusted. How can the Bible be revised? And how can a revised version of a historical document like the Bible be totally accurate?

I remember when I used to go to church, one day the pastor suggested that instead of saying "and also with you" after the priest says "peace be with you" we should say "and with your spirit"(something like that) because it was a more accurate interpretation of the Bible. Why weren't we saying that in the first place then!?

[Veretax]

ridiculous, the reason the romans cast lots for his clothes was because it would have been worthless to divide into portions, so they cast lots to see who won it lock stock and barrel.

[stevenaa]

I'll tell you what to believe all I'd like. This is America. Get used to it. This is not a place you get your head chopped off for saying God is not real and your mythological text is just that.

You'd do better to just stay out of these threads as you are nothing but a troll in them. You make no cognitive arguments supporting your position other than to say we're too smart now and know too much to believe in made up beings. What exactly do you hope to accomplish?

[brandymac27]

Yes, basic tenet of Christianity is that Yahweh (The Great I Am, LORD) is Three and yet 1; Father, Son, and Spirit. Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Son of God, the 2nd person in the Trinity.

Ok, serious question here. Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Son of God. Why is Jesus always considered the "Son" of God instead of just being called God? If the Word, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all the same exact thing, why aren't they all just called God so to not confuse the heck out of people like me? The whole trinity thing is extremely confusing and raises a plethora of questions. Why make things so dang difficult?

Also, does that mean that the Word, Jesus, and God all existed at the same time in the beginning, or did one come before the other?

Got to love it when a site on the bible has to bash other translations.

This is just too funny

Proofs from the word of God,

The Authorized King James Bible of 1611

NOT NIV, NKJV, NASB, TLB, RSV, et al--

they corrupt this precious truth.

They are part of a ghastly array of

hundreds of Satanic modern-day Bibles.

Yeah, Techboy sent me a book, "The Case for Christ", and I have read many others too since, that basically claim that the newer interpretations are just as accurate (if not more so) than the KJV (if I'm not mistaken-been a while since I read these books). Maybe he or Asbury can confirm or correct this.

[Mickalino]

Ok, serious question here. Jesus is the Word made flesh, the Son of God. Why is Jesus always considered the "Son" of God instead of just being called God? If the Word, Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are all the same exact thing, why aren't they all just called God so to not confuse the heck out of people like me? The whole trinity thing is extremely confusing and raises a plethora of questions. Why make things so dang difficult?

Also, does that mean that the Word, Jesus, and God all existed at the same time in the beginning, or did one come before the other?

Probably the best analogy is this :

Water....it comes in 3 forms, but they are all water :

Solid (Ice)

Liquid (duh)

Gas (Steam or Vapor)

The trinity of water. The three are one. They are each their own. They are each individual. But they are all water.

[twa]

This is sort of off-topic, but related. Today at work I had a package of books that titled "New Revised Standard Version Bible", and something referring to how it was accurate and trusted. How can the Bible be revised? And how can a revised version of a historical document like the Bible be totally accurate?

I remember when I used to go to church, one day the pastor suggested that instead of saying "and also with you" after the priest says "peace be with you" we should say "and with your spirit"(something like that) because it was a more accurate interpretation of the Bible. Why weren't we saying that in the first place then!?

Because it is a translation and language usage continues to change.

You want real accuracy?...Learn the ancient languages,customs and inflections to get close.

Accurate does not mean a bulls eye,simply that it hits the target

[Jumbo]

You'd do better to just stay out of these threads as you are nothing but a troll in them.

While I tend to agree personally, and your comment is absolutely fine, the unfortunate truth is what he does is not dissimilar to what several tailgate regulars often do regarding their recurring topic(s) of objection.

The trolling tag (or the spam rule for that matter) can easily apply to more than a few members' regular offerings and has been at times. But we do try to be more permissable than not.

That said, Vicous has also been warned (by me) that he has been hanging by a thread in general due to his style being too much like trolling too often. He has managed to rehabilitate himself, overall, just enough to continue to cling by that thread. That could change any moment. That's the trouble with hanging by a thread.

Now the only reason I'm even bothering to make these remarks, steve, is because I saw your post just as I was going to enter this one :

Attn: Vicious & Polywogg---take your back-n-forth to PM if need be (and don't PM me) and out of the thread. Furthermore, don't either of you post in this thread again unless you have something substantive to say. If you're unsure what might be "substantive", don't worry, I suffer no such confusion on my end.

Pardon the intrusion.

[Mickalino]

That said, Vicous has also been warned (by me) that he has been hanging by a thread

Ba doom psshhh

[brandymac27]

Probably the best analogy is this :

Water....it comes in 3 forms, but they are all water :

Solid (Ice)

Liquid (duh)

Gas (Steam or Vapor)

The trinity of water. The three are one. They are each their own. They are each individual. But they are all water.

But each 3 phases of water may be chemically the same, but they each have their own purpose. So, how can you be "one" or "together", yet an "individual" both at the same time? Just like in the Bible it says that Christ will sit at the right hand of God. Shouldn't Christ be sitting in the same spot as God if they're the same person? How can I sit in the middle of the couch and on the right side of the couch at the same time? (LOL, I know that's a really bad analogy).

The other issue I am having is the whole salvation by faith or by faith and works. I used to fall into the Calvinistic view (shortly after my agnosticism), but I'm not so sure about that anymore. Does God really predetermine who he will save and does he do it completely randomly? If that's the case, then it's a total crapshoot whether or not someone can actually have the pleasure of eternal life. It seems like this would go against most of what is taught in the NT (that anyone can be saved through faith, not just a select few).

I also don't believe that faith alone will save you. I believe that you have to live a good life (basically like Christ lived) and have faith, but that's just my opinion.

[DRSmith]

huh?

Explain how one can turn energy into matter on such a scale that they can make a universe out of it.

One would assume that such an event would leave evidence for science to ponder and assume over as they try to deduce what they are studying.

[twa]

If you're unsure what might be "substantive", don't worry, I suffer no such confusion on my end. [/i]

See ....this is a good example of accurate jnhay;)

Not a specific phrase or word ,but very clear in direction.

The correct/specific meaning is conveyed clearly,which is the best you can do when dealing with translations.

In the end the reader should have clear idea of what is meant.

[GhostofSparta]

The other issue I am having is the whole salvation by faith or by faith and works. I used to fall into the Calvinistic view (shortly after my agnosticism), but I'm not so sure about that anymore. Does God really predetermine who he will save and does he do it completely randomly? If that's the case, then it's a total crapshoot whether or not someone can actually have the pleasure of eternal life. It seems like this would go against most of what is taught in the NT (that anyone can be saved through faith, not just a select few).

I also don't believe that faith alone will save you. I believe that you have to live a good life (basically like Christ lived) and have faith, but that's just my opinion.

Amatuer opinion time, from somebody who grew up in Christianity:

No, God does not predetermine who is saved. Otherwise there would be no point at all in sending his Son, or even believing in God at all. After all, what's the point if it's entirely out of your hands?

As for the faith vs. works debate:

-Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"

-James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

You're saved by faith (and grace), but without good works your faith is useless and ineffective. Just my $.02

[brandymac27]

Amatuer opinion time, from somebody who grew up in Christianity:

No, God does not predetermine who is saved. Otherwise there would be no point at all in sending his Son, or even believing in God at all. After all, what's the point if it's entirely out of your hands?

As for the faith vs. works debate:

-Ephesians 2:8 "For by grace you have been saved through faith; and that not of yourselves, it is the gift of God"

-James 2:20 "But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?"

You're saved by faith (and grace), but without good works your faith is useless and ineffective. Just my $.02

Thanks for the post. What you say makes sense to me b/c I also believe that it wouldn't make sense to send us Christ if God cherry picked who ultimately gets saved. It also makes me feel better too .

And the James 2:20 quote just reiterated what I already thought. Yes, you must have faith, but you must also live a good life (do good deeds, love your neighbors, give to charity, etc).

[GhostofSparta]

Thanks for the post. What you say makes sense to me b/c I also believe that it wouldn't make sense to send us Christ if God cherry picked who ultimately gets saved. It also makes me feel better too .

And the James 2:20 quote just reiterated what I already thought. Yes, you must have faith, but you must also live a good life (do good deeds, love your neighbors, give to charity, etc).

Glad I could help. I'm not an "expert" like Asbury (And I don't mean that as an insult dude. You've got 10 years of schooling on me and are a preacher, so you know much more than I do about most of this stuff), but I do try to help out when I think I can.

[twa]

And the James 2:20 quote just reiterated what I already thought. Yes, you must have faith, but you must also live a good life (do good deeds, love your neighbors, give to charity, etc).

My 2 cents on that is Christ in your life will produce good works.

It is a result of it,rather than a condition for it.

If we are not doing good deeds it is because we are restricting his influence(which we are certainly capable of)

[Prosperity]

My 2 cents on that is Christ in your life will produce good works.

It is a result of it,rather than a condition for it.

If we are not doing good deeds it is because we are restricting his influence(which we are certainly capable of)

that's a nice way of putting Christ into the lives of people who aren't Christian.

[Jumbo]

that's a nice way of putting Christ into the lives of people who aren't Christian.

Yes, and it's a spiritual premise that resonates well with me.

I think my bottom-line summation, based on the totality of my understanding and observations of myriad relevant factors, is that there is little inherently-and-highly evil or saintly about either poverty or prosperity as part of the state of a person's existence. As I said, the devil will be in the details.

But the "prosperity gospel" itself often takes a very questionable form, spiritually speaking (including my take on classic Chritian theological premises), when put into play by many preachers and lay proponents.

And there, I see the matter much like techboy, though maybe less harshly.

[Vicious]

Explain how one can turn energy into matter on such a scale that they can make a universe out of it.

One would assume that such an event would leave evidence for science to ponder and assume over as they try to deduce what they are studying.

No man, you're barking up the wrong tree.

What you want to argue is that science has never been able to create life.