CNN: Passions over 'prosperity gospel': Was Jesus wealthy?

[DRSmith]

I have to wonder at your comment that you "used" to be a Jehovah's Witness. From your defense of the word Jehovah itself, to your denial of the Trinity, to this which is basically annihilationism, it sure sounds like you're still a member, or at least hold to their views.

I still share views yes but am no longer part of the church

[drtdrums]

While the "Genie in a bottle" preachers have absolutely no biblical basis for what they teach, a good case can be made for prosperity being a part of Christianity's teachings.

Prosperity is an effect of a disciplined financial life, which certainly is taught biblically. It's also impossible to be charitable with wealth if you don't have any wealth to be charitable with. Christianity teaches personal responsibility and, when one has the ability, to take up the burdens of others. Christianity even teaches investing, with the New Testament being one of the oldest references to a truth about currency that escapes many 'experts' today: Currency only has value when it's moving.

Christ's close-knit group shared money that was given to them during their ministry. They also likely earned some from odd jobs, but there's no specific text that says this. The fact that they had a treasurer, though, indicates that there was at least enough money in the group that someone had to be specifically appointed for it.

[drtdrums]

Hell to me is just where everyone goes when they die, they go into the grave those worthy or never had a chance are given their reward or another chance the others are just dead to never live again.

I think that a lot of people (not necessarily you...just in general) would be surprised about what the Bible actually teaches about Hell.

The new testament refers to Hades and Tartarus. Check out the difference in these two words. I won't assert anything here because entire theses can be (and have been) written. Also check out "Gehenna". Read both liberal and conservative scholars' opinions on these words, because there's some mind-boggling stuff that neither school really likes to deal with. In fact, what I personally believe (and have pretty heavy scholarly backup on) doesn't jive with either conservative or liberal theology. And no, I won't get into it here, for the same reason as above. The flat, two-dimensional modern Christian view/modern pop view of Hell did not appear until centuries after the texts were written, and it would certainly be worthwhile to anyone actually interested in the subject to look into it a bit further.

[DRSmith]

I think that a lot of people (not necessarily you...just in general) would be surprised about what the Bible actually teaches about Hell.

The new testament refers to Hades and Tartarus. Check out the difference in these two words. I won't assert anything here because entire theses can be (and have been) written. Also check out "Gehenna". Read both liberal and conservative scholars' opinions on these words, because there's some mind-boggling stuff that neither school really likes to deal with. In fact, what I personally believe (and have pretty heavy scholarly backup on) doesn't jive with either conservative or liberal theology. And no, I won't get into it here, for the same reason as above. The flat, two-dimensional modern Christian view/modern pop view of Hell did not appear until centuries after the texts were written, and it would certainly be worthwhile to anyone actually interested in the subject to look into it a bit further.

The term hades seems to be interchangable with the hebrew term sheol, which was basically the grave, It must not be that bad since Job prayed to go there.

[drtdrums]

The term hades seems to be interchangable with the hebrew term sheol, which was basically the grave, It must not be that bad since Job prayed to go there.

*nods* I'd say that's a pretty accurate thought.

Any thoughts on Tartarus?

[DRSmith]

*nods* I'd say that's a pretty accurate thought.

Any thoughts on Tartarus?

More of a condition than an actual place (I know in the writings of the greeks it was a place where the lesser gods were imprisoned. Jesus is said to preach the spirits inprisoned. Yet Paul writes how they still have influence on the world.

[AsburySkinsFan]

The term hades seems to be interchangable with the hebrew term sheol, which was basically the grave, It must not be that bad since Job prayed to go there.

The only problem is that you are ignoring the fact that there is a such thing as "progressive revelation" meaning that Abraham did not understand God in the same way as Moses, or even Paul. As such the argument can be made that Job did not fully understand the cosmology of Heaven and Earth in the same way that it was revealed to later generations.

BTW, I figured you for a JW about 2 or 3 pages ago, and while you may not still worship with the JW's your theology is pretty evident, the clincher was the "bronze snake" statement, I really didn't even need an answer to that question.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

who is G.O.D.?

An interesting song, to say the least.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It is simply a history book. Basically, I didn't want to discuss the Bible and thought I pointed that out. I was not saying many portions of the Bible are not accurate or correct. In fact it is.

How do you not expect to discuss the Bible in a thread about Jesus? Especially with statements like you made earlier with "turning this upside down and inside out". If that wasn't bait I don't know what it was.

You are answering as academic. You are answering with logic and what you have read or been taught in class. I am saying that is incorrect to a degree.

Based on what? You're saying that I'm incorrect, and yet you've already professed an ignorance of the subject. I'm sorry but that seems kinda strange to me, I wonder if you took the same attitude with Algebra teachers.

I am saying you simply must believe and have faith. Have Faith that everyone has two angels assigned to them. Have Faith that you can pray to the angels and they can help you.

I don't pray to angels, and I don't find anywhere in the Bible that angels protect me nor that I have two of them for me, I really can't help but think that you're quoting stuff that you've heard but have never bothered to investigate yourself and now want to lecture me on the matters of my faith after 16 years in the church; 13 years in church leadership and 10 years academic training. Does that mean I know it all? Far from it but it certainly puts me in a position to appreciate when a novice is trying to present himself as a teacher.

[WVUforREDSKINS]

If you can see if you can solve the mystery

The answer revolves around your history

So carefully, I drop this degree

Scientifically, and realistically (Who is God?)

Repeat Chorus

In eternal blackness, in the midst of the darkest night

Proteins and minerals, exist within specks of light

Solids liquids and gases, and sparks of light within

infinite lengths and widths and depths and heights

No beginning or ending, the seven dimensions

Enough space for more than a million words and inventions

To travel through time within enough room to be the womb

of the most high's great mind which he will soon make shine

With intelligent elements in sight that he will gather

In the realms of relativity electricity struck matter

Energies explode he below to keep releasin

Atoms by the millions, til the numbers increasin

Til it was burnin he kept returnin itself to the source

The hotter his thoughts it gave the center more force

He gave birth to the sun which would follow his laws

All caused by his mental intercourse, who is God?

Chorus

He began to explain his craft, the master in the attic

He dealt with measurements his language, was mathematics

His theoretical wisdom of the numerical system

The complete number nine which means born or existed

He gave birth to all planets, inorganic, and organic

So you wouldn't take it for granted

They rotated they own distance around the sun

And fully submit to the existance of one

And each one was promised everlasting perfection

If each one keeps spinnin in the same direction

To the East, and each speak the motion of peace

and harmony, and each show devotion to teach

The universe is to come, the whole world must go according

Know your galaxies and mirages stars start fallin

So stay in your orbit maintain safe and sound

Like the planets each cipher remains perfectly round

Chorus

From unconciousness, to conciousness

By knowledging his wisdom his response is this

A understanding, which is the best part

He picked the third planet where new forms of life would start

He pursued show and prove every move in order

Back to the source he let off his resources in the water

Climb his climax, where the climate is at, high degrees

See he start to breathe deep in the darkest seas

And the plan is, to lay in the clays to form land

And expand, usin the same clays to born man

In his own image our origin begins in the East

Culture rise to breed, with the powers of peace

Deal in equality nature's policy is to be God

Build or destroy positively born life like Allah

And each one was given everlasting perfection

If each one keep living in the same direction

And life was life, and love was love

We went according by the laws of the world above

They showed us physically, we could reach infinity

But mentally, through the century we lost our identity

Life start and ending, we got trife and started sinning

Lost touch with the beginning now ciphers stop spinnin

And what was once easy became confused and hard

Which brings us back, to the mystic question, who is God?

Sixty-six trillion years since his face was shown

When the seventh angel appears, the mystery will be known

Check Revelations and Genesis, St. Luke and John

It even tells us we are Gods in the Holy Qu'ran

Wisdom Strength and Beauty, one of the meanings of God

G.O.D. you and me ?Gomars O Dubar?

Knowledge Wisdom Understanding Sun Moon and Star

Man Woman and Child, and so is Allah

Chorus

Bear witness to Allah, gave birth to all

For Allah was all, and therefore, life itself

And the universe gave birth to man

The universe was man, and man was the universe

And the universe was always existed

And existance was life

And life is Allah

And Allah had no beginning because he is, what always was

Rakim Allah, peace

Now who is God?

[drtdrums]

The only problem is that you are ignoring the fact that there is a such thing as "progressive revelation" meaning that Abraham did not understand God in the same way as Moses, or even Paul. As such the argument can be made that Job did not fully understand the cosmology of Heaven and Earth in the same way that it was revealed to later generations.

BTW, I figured you for a JW about 2 or 3 pages ago, and while you may not still worship with the JW's your theology is pretty evident, the clincher was the "bronze snake" statement, I really didn't even need an answer to that question.

I'm really glad you brought this up. I don't disagree with the heart of 'progressive revelation', but I think it's mistermed. I'd say that everyone, biblical authors included, have a different perspective and understanding around their ideas of God.

The issue I have with "progressive revelation" is that it infers that we know more of God now than they did then. I disagree wholeheartedly with that notion. Different doesn't mean, "more", nor does it mean that God has changed. There is a basic tendency of modern liberal scholarship to assume that Moses and Abraham were idiots, or at least simple-minded. That's pure poison.

[DRSmith]

The only problem is that you are ignoring the fact that there is a such thing as "progressive revelation" meaning that Abraham did not understand God in the same way as Moses, or even Paul. As such the argument can be made that Job did not fully understand the cosmology of Heaven and Earth in the same way that it was revealed to later generations.

BTW, I figured you for a JW about 2 or 3 pages ago, and while you may not still worship with the JW's your theology is pretty evident, the clincher was the "bronze snake" statement, I really didn't even need an answer to that question.

Acts 2:31 talks about the prophecy in Psalms in Acts they use hades in Pslams sheol so the two are interchangable

[AsburySkinsFan]

Acts 2:31 talks about the prophecy in Psalms in Acts they use hades in Pslams sheol so the two are interchangable

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth." I don't know a lot but to me that doesn't sound good. BTW, what good is a judgment if there are no repercussions in a negative judgment, and if in Christ we are "saved" what are we saved from?

[AsburySkinsFan]

I'm really glad you brought this up. I don't disagree with the heart of 'progressive revelation', but I think it's mistermed. I'd say that everyone, biblical authors included, have a different perspective and understanding around their ideas of God.

The issue I have with "progressive revelation" is that it infers that we know more of God now than they did then. I disagree wholeheartedly with that notion. Different doesn't mean, "more", nor does it mean that God has changed. There is a basic tendency of modern liberal scholarship to assume that Moses and Abraham were idiots, or at least simple-minded. That's pure poison.

I think you're hearing me wrong, with progressive revelation I by no means am calling Moses or Abraham idiots nor any of the saints. However, through the passage of time God has revealed Himself to us in ways that Moses and Abraham were not privy to. Moses was given the law, something that Abraham never knew as such Moses had a clearer vision of God than Abraham had, we have the prophets, the law, Abraham, Jesus, the Disciples, and the church as such we have a clearer vision than any who have gone before us. It follows the same logic of "I stand on the shoulders of giants and can see farther" it by no means diminishes the saints who have gone before in fact the whole reason that we have a more complete revelation is precisely because of the saints who have gone before us.

[DRSmith]

"Weeping and gnashing of teeth." I don't know a lot but to me that doesn't sound good. BTW, what good is a judgment if there are no repercussions in a negative judgment, and if in Christ we are "saved" what are we saved from?

Jesus also talked about those who were outside would be weeping an gnashing their teeth.

I cna only imagine the reaction of many as the realize in the end what is going on, when they run up saying lord lord did we not.........

[DRSmith]

I think you're hearing me wrong, with progressive revelation I by no means am calling Moses or Abraham idiots nor any of the saints. However, through the passage of time God has revealed Himself to us in ways that Moses and Abraham were not privy to. Moses was given the law, something that Abraham never knew as such Moses had a clearer vision of God than Abraham had, we have the prophets, the law, Abraham, Jesus, the Disciples, and the church as such we have a clearer vision than any who have gone before us. It follows the same logic of "I stand on the shoulders of giants and can see farther" it by no means diminishes the saints who have gone before in fact the whole reason that we have a more complete revelation is precisely because of the saints who have gone before us.

Abrham and Moses were both men who got prophecy and promises given to them whose faith is upheld by Paul as an example to us, I think they clearly knew who God was and knew what was expected of them.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Abrham and Moses were both men who got prophecy and promises given to them whose faith is upheld by Paul as an example to us, I think they clearly knew who God was and knew what was expected of them.

Really? Then explain to me why Abraham thought that he should sacrifice his son Isaac to Yahweh if he knew God in the same way that Moses did considering it wasn't until Moses that we were given the law that forbade child sacrifice.

What you are suggesting is that someone who dies 10 minutes into a movie knows as much about the movie as the person who has been watching it for 90 minutes.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Jesus also talked about those who were outside would be weeping an gnashing their teeth.

I cna only imagine the reaction of many as the realize in the end what is going on, when they run up saying lord lord did we not.........

But, aren't you the one denying the existence of Hell? Why would they be crying to God if there is no judgment and no separation from God?

You still haven't explained what we are saved from.

[DRSmith]

Really? Then explain to me why Abraham thought that he should sacrifice his son Isaac to Yahweh if he knew God in the same way that Moses did considering it wasn't until Moses that we were given the law that forbade child sacrifice.

What you are suggesting is that someone who dies 10 minutes into a movie knows as much about the movie as the person who has been watching it for 90 minutes.

He knew obedience was a requirement and Issac would not have been possible were it not for God. Interesting how the Abraham offering Issace prefigured exactly what God was going to do with offering up His own son.

Remeber Abraham knew God enough that he could ask questions regarding Sodom.

[DRSmith]

But, aren't you the one denying the existence of Hell? Why would they be crying to God if there is no judgment and no separation from God?

You still haven't explained what we are saved from.

One is saved from eternal death.

Sodom and Gommorah is still under going the judgement as we read of them and from God's point of view He knows the judgement. Yet they are not literally burning right now, fire is not raining down now.

[AsburySkinsFan]

He knew obedience was a requirement and Issac would not have been possible were it not for God. Interesting how the Abraham offering Issace prefigured exactly what God was going to do with offering up His own son.

Remeber Abraham knew God enough that he could ask questions regarding Sodom.

But, if Abraham knew God like Moses knew God then Abraham would have known better than to lay Isaac on the altar. Did Abraham know God sufficiently for faithful obedience? Yes, did he know him as much as we do, due to the revelation that we have been given over the past 8,000+ or - years? No.

One is saved from eternal death.

Sodom and Gommorah is still under going the judgement as we read of them and from God's point of view He knows the judgement. Yet they are not literally burning right now, fire is not raining down now.

Oh, ok, then we agree on that point, I misunderstood what you were talking about. You are right, I don't agree with the flames and torture, but instead what I call "separation from God's grace"; whether that means death or something else I can't comment.

[DRSmith]

But, if Abraham knew God like Moses knew God then Abraham would have known better than to lay Isaac on the altar. Did Abraham know God sufficiently for faithful obedience? Yes, did he know him as much as we do, due to the revelation that we have been given over the past 8,000+ or - years? No.

Oh, ok, then we agree on that point, I misunderstood what you were talking about. You are right, I don't agree with the flames and torture, but instead what I call "separation from God's grace"; whether that means death or something else I can't comment.

What is Abraham going to say no I will not do it?

[AsburySkinsFan]

What is Abraham going to say no I will not do it?

What would Moses have said if God commanded him to sacrifice children after God had already given him the Law which forbade it?

Come on man, this isn't that hard a concept.

[DRSmith]

What would Moses have said if God commanded him to sacrifice children after God had already given him the Law which forbade it?

Come on man, this isn't that hard a concept.

Why would he do that he already had it done so as to demostrate what he was going to do in the future.

[Fred Jones]

How do you not expect to discuss the Bible in a thread about Jesus? Especially with statements like you made earlier with "turning this upside down and inside out". If that wasn't bait I don't know what it was.

I don't pray to angels, and I don't find anywhere in the Bible that angels protect me nor that I have two of them for me

Perhaps you should and ask for a sign. No, they won't come up on your computer and send you a note, but if you truly ask they will comply in their own subtle way. And yes, I have. I am by no means an expert, but it is unsettling when they do answer.

As I said, you responded as someone who listens to the church and what they teach. You responded as someone who has read "church books".

Why did it take until AD 250 or so to come up with the name Christians?

Joseph of Arimathaea established the first Christian Church in the world in Glastonbury within three years after the death of Christ. In the early days the religion was known as “The Way”, and they were known as the “Followers of the Way”, because Christ had said, “I am the Way”. They referred to Christ and his spiritual philosophy as “The Way”.

Read about the Essenes at the time of Yeshua.

Here is but one of the many comments from one of those hersay books banned by the church.

So simple his teachings were: unite with the Spirit, be open to the Kingdom of Heaven that is the world of Spirit, and let the energy of the Spirit flow down into us and wash away all heaviness, all fear, all doubt, and all the littleness within us that is uncomfortable with the Light. And when we are full of the Spirit, how easy it is to step into the Light which is our Source and the very nature of our being. How easy to lay aside the body that has served us well, and in the formless world become one with the Light. And he taught us that the nature of the Spirit is Truth and Love and Freedom, and when these three are present in our hearts then indeed we may feel the Kingdom of Heaven close to us.

You don't have to believe me or listen to me and I am not trying to persuade you. When you die, just go to the light. You will be met by someone you recognize along with the angels and you will remember. Perhaps you can remember this conversation and visit my soul group.