WPC: Will they stay or will they go – Zorn and Cerrato

[JimmiJo]

http://web.warpathconfidential.com/?p=2517

Will they stay or will they go – Zorn and Cerrato

By John Pappas

Warpath Confidential Editor

When a team goes 3-9 over the first 12 weeks, one thing you can be sure of is changes in the offseason.

The Washington Redskins have had a horrible season by any measure. Their record is historically bad. The offense struggled for most of the season. And the defense is letting down lately. Worse for ownership, fan apathy is at an all-time high.

This means people are going to be leaving in January.

There is a lot of conjecture as to how this will play out. Will some of the franchise stars be let go? Will the team invest high draft picks in a new quarterback, or other offensive weapon? And what of the coaching and front office staff? Will the team clean house?

As of now, it looks like the changes could be significant. But one thing is certain; the NFL means Not-For-Long, and a lot could change depending on how things play out the final four weeks, when decisions need to be made.

Head coach Jim Zorn – 5% chance to remain

Click the link to read the entire article...

[Oldfan]

Sherman Lewis's playcalling should not get anything more than minor credit for the improved performance of the offense. Dan Snyder should know that. So, I'll assume that Jim Zorn will get most of the credit for the progress which he has been telling us has been happening all along.

The biggest knock against Jim Zorn is the slow progress of the young receivers, especially for their use in the red zone. It should not have taken an injury to Cooley to find out that Fred Davis can play the game.

I'm going to bet that Dan knows that Jim Zorn's scheme provides a solid foundation for the offense. So, he will keep Zorn unless he has an option to upgrade the head coach position without losing continuity. For example, Chris Meidt, who now has two years of NFL experience in Zorn's scheme is a very bright guy, quite possibly brighter than Jim Zorn. Sherman Lewis, or someone with similar qualifications, could assist.

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

[visionary]

Sherman Lewis's playcalling should not get anything more than minor credit for the improved performance of the offense. Dan Snyder should know that. So, I'll assume that Jim Zorn will get most of the credit for the progress which he has been telling us has been happening all along....

Not that I agree with much of what you think Snyder should know....

BUT I've learned that assuming that Danny should know something is generally about as rewarding as sticking your hands in a tank full of starving piranhas and assuming they won't bite you.

[Harwich Hog]

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

Having given it some thought - i'm staying quiet...

[Skinsinparadise]

I'm going to bet that Dan knows that Jim Zorn's scheme provides a solid foundation for the offense. So, he will keep Zorn unless he has an option to upgrade the head coach position without losing continuity. For example, Chris Meidt, who now has two years of NFL experience in Zorn's scheme is a very bright guy, quite possibly brighter than Jim Zorn. Sherman Lewis, or someone with similar qualifications, could assist.

In terms of you expecting Zorn being back, you sure that isn't wishful thinking more than anything? I would go to Vegas in a heartbeat and bet against this notion if they had a wager on it. Not from the stand point that its a sure bet but IMO it is close enough.

For Zorn to be back ALL the media reporting will have to be proven wrong. The three leaks that came to mind are: Snyder purposely not giving Zorn the vote of confidence for the rest of the year and asking Cerrato to do it, because he couldn't do it without squirming, Cerrato berating Zorn as late as after the Eagle game, Cerrato blaming Zorn for the underachieving team. And forget the earlier in the season stuff including Snyder asking Shanny to coach the team NOW, this season.

Maybe all these "leaks" are wrong but you would have to add to that multiple reporters who cover the team saying that their sources tell them he's a goner. I have not seen any equivocation about Zorn aside from some writers thinking maybe he should be given another chance but that's not coming from Redskins sources but their own thoughts.

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

I agree with your thought that Vinny's job is safe. I am going again on media indications, the leaks have been mixed but lately its more Vinny is staying. The kicker though is if Vinny is indeed gone, then why would Snyder send him to berate Zorn after the Eagles game and why would he be scouting for future Qb's with Snyder now.

I don't think Vinny is as bad as most on the board think he is. Going on some of your previous posts, I also don't think he is as good as you tend to think he is. I am sort of in the middle with him. While I agree with you that Gibbs should shoulder blame for all the draft picks traded in his tenure -- you seem to absolve Vinny from that completely, I don't.

And its nothing personal against Vinny its simply what I recall reading about how the front office was structured then. There was a good article in the WP after the 07 season, that described it well, and if I recall had direct quotes from people involved.

The way I recall it being described. Gibbs would express his needs and make the final calls. Vinny would make the recommendations of players to fulfill the needs outlined by Gibbs and the assistant coaches. And Danny and Vinny would figure out the compensation.

So Gibbs would say I want a WR. Cerrato would then along with the scouts make the recommendations and come up with these are the best guys that we likely can have, and here's how we grade them: So a Brandon Lloyd for example was likely high on Vinny's recommendation chart. Gibbs would approve. Then Snyder and Cerrato would figure, ok 3rd and 4th round picks seem like a fair deal, and lets rip up Lloyd's contract and sign him for a much heftier one.

There were exceptions where Al Saunders, or Gregg Williams would say I really like this player. But from what I recall reading it wasn't Gibbs saying lets get Duckett, with Ceratto screaming no no no not that guy. And Ceratto wasn't removed for those decision makings but a key part of it.

The Gibbs trade draft pick philosophy wasn't inconsistent with Snyder and Cerrato's previous philosophy. Remember all the draft picks they'd give up for example signing restricting free agents pre Gibbs? If you listen to Cerrato RECENTLY he likes to say that he would pursue any avenue to help the team (ok fine) and then goes on to say he's not shy about making trades, and said the Jason Taylor didn't work out because of injuries, but he would make that trade again, and won't apologize for that one.

Cerrato isn't shy about talking about how he thinks on his radio show. Maybe he will turn a new leaf. And I agree specifically the last two drafts look good. But I did hear him on the radio (the Doc Walker show, 980 archives) with Snyder before the last draft shoot down the idea that the O line needs upgrading. So am not with you about him being absolved of the O line issues.

[Aireskoi]

I don't think Snyder blames Vinny the way most fans and media do. I think he blames himself, and wants to continue to use Vinny as a fall guy for his own decisions.

The structure will continue.

[SWFLSkins]

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

______________________

So you admit that the OL was neglected, but fail to pin that neglect upon the shoulders of the man in charge? I am confused. For two years those Redskin fans you speak of knew the OL neglect was costing the team games and hurting the chance of Campbell becoming a truly productive QB. For two years the fans endured a crappy kicker losing games for a team that simply could not punch it in when in the RZ, OL related. Yet the GM garners a pass for that? I think Vinny needs to go, you may not, but I think I am in the majority FWIW.

[sempre_victrix]

Per a radio report on DC101 this morning, Dan and Vinny were out together scouting Colt McCoy.

Vinny will be back.

[Devastate]

Sherman Lewis's playcalling should not get anything more than minor credit for the improved performance of the offense. Dan Snyder should know that. So, I'll assume that Jim Zorn will get most of the credit for the progress which he has been telling us has been happening all along.

The biggest knock against Jim Zorn is the slow progress of the young receivers, especially for their use in the red zone. It should not have taken an injury to Cooley to find out that Fred Davis can play the game.

I'm going to bet that Dan knows that Jim Zorn's scheme provides a solid foundation for the offense. So, he will keep Zorn unless he has an option to upgrade the head coach position without losing continuity. For example, Chris Meidt, who now has two years of NFL experience in Zorn's scheme is a very bright guy, quite possibly brighter than Jim Zorn. Sherman Lewis, or someone with similar qualifications, could assist.

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

How are the oline problems not his fault?

[kschles]

Per a radio report on DC101 this morning, Dan and Vinny were out together scouting Colt McCoy.

Vinny will be back.

Good to know that Dan Snyder is leading our scouting efforts. Anyone who thinks this man will give up any control or involvement is dreaming.

[tr1]

Sherman Lewis's playcalling should not get anything more than minor credit for the improved performance of the offense. Dan Snyder should know that. So, I'll assume that Jim Zorn will get most of the credit for the progress which he has been telling us has been happening all along.

The biggest knock against Jim Zorn is the slow progress of the young receivers, especially for their use in the red zone. It should not have taken an injury to Cooley to find out that Fred Davis can play the game.

I'm going to bet that Dan knows that Jim Zorn's scheme provides a solid foundation for the offense. So, he will keep Zorn unless he has an option to upgrade the head coach position without losing continuity. For example, Chris Meidt, who now has two years of NFL experience in Zorn's scheme is a very bright guy, quite possibly brighter than Jim Zorn. Sherman Lewis, or someone with similar qualifications, could assist.

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

Well, oldfan, at least you're consistent.

The play calling has improved DRAMATICALLY since Lewis has arrived. In fact, the poor play calling during the 2 minute drill is obviously Zorn's. Since Lewis has been here, we don't call for 7 yard passes when it's 3 and 9...and, the short crossing routes, which have been so successful, are something I don't remember before Lewis was here.

Unlike Zorn, Lewis seems to adjust play calling during games and now has a feel for the personnel - adjusting his play calling to player talents, not vice versa.

He's not as rigidly stubborn as Zorn...which is quite refreshing.

I have to agree, JC has bigger targets that seem to get some separation now, but most in the NFL who watch the Skins think the play calling has improved dramatically.

And, as much as you like to berate Gibbs II, that pesky fact that he got us to the playoffs TWICE in four years continues to be omitted in your posts. He's gave us more hope in December than any coach in the previous dozen years plus.

[WhoRUSupposed2Be]

The problem with leaving Vinny at the disposal of the O-line neglect is that he definitively was not in charge when all of those draft picks were being dispensed.

We have been in a premature (sort of unorthodox) rebuilding mode for anyone that can clearly see. This franchise has heavily paid the price for that negligence and I just can not see that happening again for the forseeable future. If Dan actually listens to his common sense rather than his sensationalism, then he'll see the rewards in later returns.

[WSHRedskins3ATLBraves3]

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

No, wait, what?

[MartinC]

Sherman Lewis's playcalling should not get anything more than minor credit for the improved performance of the offense.

In your opinion.

Your entitled to that view but just becuase you believe something does not automatically make it fact any more that what I believe - in this context that the change of play caller and the adjustments Lewis has made have made a significant impact on offensive production - would be viewed as fact either.

Setting this debate, which we have had across several threads now, aside whatever the truth it is a fact that since Lewis was brought on board our offense has improved. Every media commentator and Redskins player who has been quoted on this subject has credited Lewis with being at least a significant part of this improvement.

Lets say they are wrong and your contention that excution has improved and that just happens to coincide with Lewis being involved is correct. Do you really credit Snyder with the depth of insight and football IQ to come to that conclusion in the face of just about everybody else involved or observing crediting Lewis?

Whoever is right the improvement in offense the last few weeks will in my opinion by seen by Snyder as further evidence that Zorn is not up to the job of being a HC or for that matter an offensive co-ordinator.

By all accounts he is a heck of a QB coach. He should stick to that. But thats just an opinion.

[Chump Bailey]

I think it's more like 99.99% Vinny will be staying.

[TheGoodBits]

I think it's more like 99.99% Vinny will be staying.

In my opinion it's more like 70% that he's going at this point. He tied his fate to Zorn, and that was a complete failure. In addition, our roster was nowhere near what a playoff roster should look like at the beginning of the season, despite what Sir Vincent would like to claim. I think he has until the end of the season, then he gets the door. It will happen as soon as someone like Shanahan tells Danny that he'll take the job as long as Vinny isn't part of it. Hopefully Danny has wised up at least a little, and will do the right thing.

[ciscofan]

I hate saying this, but the fact that the team looked so bad for most of the season, but is now making large strides with the large amounts of injuries and the added players and young players making huge contributions and bringing in Sherm Smith has shown an increase in production, Vinny is looking better as the season goes on.

I think the ship has sailed with Zorn and he has shown nothing to be kept around.

[addicted]

Been saying for weeks I don't see Vinny being let go completely. He will stay with the team in some role maybe not team president but he's not coming off the payroll. Zorn on the other hand has worn out his welcome and is gone provided that we can land someone better. After the last coaching search that isn't a sure thing but I believe Zorn being canned is still the first thing to happen once the season ends.

[21forlyfe]

I dont care what happens...I only want Corn fired!

nothing is consistant for him except Bad play calling,poor Clock Management,No rookies or younger players on the Feild,his most consistant one of them all..CONSERVATIVENESS!

[budski]

This team has not improved that much over the past couple of weeks to keep anybody.

[KevinthePRF]

Cerrato will stay, Zorn will go. Snyder doing things bass ackwards as usual.

[bikie]

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

The hand vinny was dealt with regard to the oline is, of course, not his fault; the neglect he has shown the oline in FA and drafts for the past 2 years, and the current state of the line, is most definitely his fault...

[scruffylookin]

Vinny needs to go.

Danny needs to stay out of football ops.

Hire a real personel person who works independently of the owner. If this guy decides that he wants to keep Zorn and let him continue to refine his offense, I'm okay with that.

As long as Danny and Vinny are the ones deciding Zorn's fate, I still think we're doomed to the same failure we've seen this decade.

[Dick Edds]

it is personal with Vinny ... he is an arrogant prick who has no humility, admits no faults and blames others for his own short-comings, just like Snyder. Ok I feel better now.

[SkinsNumberOne]

Sherman Lewis's playcalling should not get anything more than minor credit for the improved performance of the offense. Dan Snyder should know that. So, I'll assume that Jim Zorn will get most of the credit for the progress which he has been telling us has been happening all along.

Jason Campbell was on the LaVar show on Monday, and was asked about the improved play of the offense. He was hesitant to answer, but eventually admitted that they are confusing defenses more with more unpredictable playcalls, as well as mixing in more motion that they weren't doing before. Why do you think that is, Oldfan? Or do you think you know something Jason doesn't about the offense?

I tend to think the reason is obvious. Jim Zorn was stubbornly refusing to adapt his offense, and it may cost him his job. I don't pity him; in fact, I wish he had just adapted the same way Gibbs was more than ready to adapt in his second tenure (almost too much; I still think the Al Saunders experiment was horrible).

If Zorn is willing to continue to work with Sherm Lewis and it can be shown that their seemingly convoluted playcalling scheme can succeed, then perhaps Jim will be given another year. Perhaps we can have some continuity. But I highly doubt this will be the case.

The O-line neglect isn't Vinny's fault. Unlike most Redskins fans, Dan will know that. And since the draft and roster moves have gone well since Vinny took over after Gibbs left, Vinny's job is safe.

The O-line neglect is Vinny's fault. Skinsinparadise talked about how Vinny has made plenty of comments to suggest that he didn't think the O-line was in bad shape, which I also recall. In addition to that, the idea that there were no O-line members available at our draft positions is a total fabrication. Atlanta traded with us to take a top OL prospect. Perhaps you can argue that our round 2 receivers were more valuable to us, but we still would have gotten one of them in the second round. Furthermore, in other positions there were opportunities to get young at OL.

Vinny has his pluses and minuses, but his poisonous attitude and some of his tendencies are a key factor in the fall of this franchise.

Right above my own post:

it is personal with Vinny ... he is an arrogant prick who has no humility, admits no faults and blames others for his own short-comings, just like Snyder. Ok I feel better now.

Exactly. Durant Brooks got out-punted last preseason by Frost, but was still given the job. Why? Because Vinny was scared of criticism of his stupid move to draft Brooks. Result? Our holder situation is put into serious jeopardy (contributing to horrible kicking performance), our punter situation is pushed to instability...

If Vinny's attitude was better, he may have enough pluses to outweigh his minuses. But his attitude, instead, is horrible. And psychologically speaking, it feels like a case where someone is very insecure. He doesn't think he's good enough to be where he is. I tend to agree.