WPC: Will they stay or will they go – Zorn and Cerrato

[bikie]

Vinny is not responsible for the neglect of the O-line

I think Vinny is a weasel and Joe Gibbs is a pretty good guy, but Joe was in charge (2004 - 2006) when the club dealt away draft picks like party favors in trades while getting little in return. Joe's win-now approach gained a couple of wildcard berths, but the cost was high -- the neglect of the O-line which was the strongest unit on the team when Joe returned to the Skins.

The problem of the degrading O-line has been exacerbated by bad luck with injuries. I predicted the O-line problem in a thread in 2007, but I expected the decline to be gradual. No one could have predicted the multiple injuries to Jansen, Thomas and Samuels that so swiftly cut their effectiveness.

In the two years Vinny has been in charge, he added Dockery, Rinehart and some minor players for depth. If he had drafted Oher for need, he could have done more for the O-line. That would have been a win-now move. Orakpo was the BPA and easily the best pick long term.

Given the hand he was dealt after Gibbs left, and since he was lacking a crystal ball, it's unfair to pin the blame for the weak O-line on Vinny. Two years just isn't enough time to correct the problem.

lets first not forget vinny had a full compliment of picks, 16 total in the past 2 drafts... and you don't think inheiriting the oldest, and already injury proned, offensive line in the league shouldn't have been cause for concern and immediate action? that vinny shouldn't have looked for a replacement for jansen who was just coming off his second lost season to injury? or randy thomas who was also coming off a 3 game season in 2007 due to injury? vinny rolled the dice both of them, already in their 30's, would hold up which was incredibly dimwitted and costs the team dearly...

what was vinny's first move? to attempt and trade 2 first rounds for chad johnson... and then after the 2008 season which was again riddled with Oline injuries, his remedy? attempt to draft future picks for a QB and spend a fortune on a DT...

please, vinny has ignored the line worse than any other position and its current state falls squarely on his shoulders...

[Oldfan]

... and you don't think inheiriting the oldest, and already injury proned, offensive line in the league shouldn't have been cause for concern and immediate action?...

Of course he understood the problem. Is that where your reasoning stops?

... and then after the 2008 season which was again riddled with Oline injuries, his remedy? attempt to draft future picks for a QB and spend a fortune on a DT...

In the draft, trades and FA, when opportunities come up to improve your football team, you seize them. You don't make out a shopping list and say, "Well, first we need a starting O-lineman, so let's pass on these opportunities."

[TheLongshot]

lets first not forget vinny had a full compliment of picks, 16 total in the past 2 drafts... and you don't think inheiriting the oldest, and already injury proned, offensive line in the league shouldn't have been cause for concern and immediate action? that vinny shouldn't have looked for a replacement for jansen who was just coming off his second lost season to injury? or randy thomas who was also coming off a 3 game season in 2007 due to injury? vinny rolled the dice both of them, already in their 30's, would hold up which was incredibly dimwitted and costs the team dearly...

The draft isn't a department store. You don't come in and say you want something and it will be there for you in the draft. You take what the draft gives you. Those who try to force the issue usually pay the price.

what was vinny's first move? to attempt and trade 2 first rounds for chad johnson... and then after the 2008 season which was again riddled with Oline injuries, his remedy? attempt to draft future picks for a QB and spend a fortune on a DT...

All of which were needs at the time. Again, you have to go with what is available, not what you wish was available. I guess you would have liked to have traded for Jason Peters.

[Skinsinparadise]

As for Vinny getting the problem of the O line, I am gathering he seemed to think it was fixed with the signing of Dockery and Mike Williams. Maybe Danny was speaking out of turn, but in an interview BEFORE last years draft, on 980 (you can find the actual show in 980's archives for Doc Walker), he said with Cerrato by his side, that the O line is fine as is and he doesn't agree that they need further upgrading. Danny goes on to say how Chris Samuels is still young, ditto Randy Thomas.

And where was Vinny during the Gibbs years? Was he not with the team? We all read he was part of the trifecta of decision makers -- he, Danny and Gibbs were the FO team -- with Cerrato being the main guy recommending specific target players, and Vinny with Danny for the most part negotiating the terms of the deals. Gibbs had the final say. But what is it about Vinny's past that makes anyone believe that Gibbs trading draft picks goes against the grain of how Vinny operates?

If you ever heard Vinny or Danny elaborate on what they learned about past mistakes, I don't recall them mention the idea of no more trading draft picks, its usually something to the effect if they are going to pursue a player via free agency or a trade, they want to go younger then getting veterans past their prime. Though they did throw that out the window in the Jason Taylor trade.

Last year they didn't trade draft picks but boy did they try when they were trying to get Jay Cutler.

[TE#80]

Coming from someone who did unreasonable hours of reading Multiple scouting reviews for every tackle in the draft last year, there was plenty of late round talent, including Jamon Merideth, Troy Kropog, Xavier Fulton,Duke Robinson, Hermon Johnson, Lydon Murtha, also

Alex Boone, and Jason Watkins, were undrafted.

[Oldfan]

...If you ever heard Vinny or Danny elaborate on what they learned about past mistakes, I don't recall them mention the idea of no more trading draft picks...

Nor should they. Sometimes, trading draft picks is a good idea. But, it shouldn't be a common occurence in a sound, long-term, roster building plan.

[Skinsinparadise]

Coming from someone who did unreasonable hours of reading Multiple scouting reviews for every tackle in the draft last year, there was plenty of late round talent, including Jamon Merideth, Troy Kropog, Xavier Fulton,Duke Robinson, Hermon Johnson, Lydon Murtha, also

Alex Boone, and Jason Watkins, were undrafted.

A bunch of those guys were passed over for Cody Glenn in the 5th -- a player that didn't make most of the draft geeks 7 round prospects, Glenn himself I recall said when drafted that he was surprised he was drafted period never mind in the 5th round. And yeah he didn't make the team.

Having said that I don't think Vinny has been bad in the draft in the last 2 years. Those drafts IMO have been decent. But I don't buy into the idea that Vinny didn't have a hand in prior drafts, because that's not the impression I get from either the media or for that matter Vinny when he talks about himself in the media.

What I'd like to see Vinny do is get an occasional stud, not a decent player but stud in the later rounds, or undrafted guys.

Cowboys got a stud IMO with Ratliff in the 7th, and Romo sits to pee, Austin undrafted.

Giants got a heck of a RB in ex-7th rounder Derrick Ward, granted the Jets drafted him but the Giants signed him.

Eagles got a stud in 5th rounder, Trent Cole.

[bikie]

Of course he understood the problem. Is that where your reasoning stops?

In the draft, trades and FA, when opportunities come up to improve your football team, you seize them. You don't make out a shopping list and say, "Well, first we need a starting O-lineman, so let's pass on these opportunities."

so he understood the problem but did nothing about it other than use a 3rd round pick and 1 FA... I think that pretty much says all there needs to be said about vinny as a GM...

and in two years there have been no opportunities to improve our line more than we did? no other teams improved their line via the draft or FA? it was a dead market and we were forced to play the hand dealt to us? do you really believe that?

or did vinny just take a gamble, a very poor one, that the battered and aged line would somehow hold up and he could focus his attention elsewhere?

[Oldfan]

Cowboys got a stud IMO with Ratliff in the 7th, and Romo sits to pee, Austin undrafted.

Giants got a heck of a RB in ex-7th rounder Derrick Ward, granted the Jets drafted him but the Giants signed him.

Eagles got a stud in 5th rounder, Trent Cole.

It's hard to prove this, but my seat-of-the-pants opinion is that the Redskins hit rate is better than the Eagles and Cowboys, but not as good as the Giants. The Eagles have stockpiled draft picks, though, while the Skins have traded too many of theirs away, especially in rounds 2, 3 and 4.

[Oldfan]

so he understood the problem but did nothing about it other than use a 3rd round pick and 1 FA... I think that pretty much says all there needs to be said about vinny as a GM...

I don't come to the same conclusion.

...and in two years there have been no opportunities to improve our line more than we did?

Other than Oher, I'm not aware of another player passed on, but who knows for sure?

or did vinny just take a gamble, a very poor one, that the battered and aged line would somehow hold up and he could focus his attention elsewhere?

Vinny's not a football genius, but I really doubt that he's that dumb.

[bikie]

I don't come to the same conclusion.

Other than Oher, I'm not aware of another player passed on, but who knows for sure?

Vinny's not a football genius, but I really doubt that he's that dumb.

so then your conclusion isn't that vinny ignored the line, it's that he improved it to the best of his abilities as our GM?

[KevinthePRF]

There were several responses to my earlier post in this thread, some of them lengthy. Rather than respond to them individually, I will elaborate on some of the opinions I expressed.

Vinny is not responsible for the neglect of the O-line

I think Vinny is a weasel and Joe Gibbs is a pretty good guy, but Joe was in charge (2004 - 2006)....

The only place I have seen this verified (Joe Gibbs was in charge of all personel decisions) is via messageboard. Vinny apologists unite!

[DannySnyderIsTheDevil]

My money is on: Zorn goes and Vin stays. Unfortunately.

[TheLongshot]

As for Vinny getting the problem of the O line, I am gathering he seemed to think it was fixed with the signing of Dockery and Mike Williams. Maybe Danny was speaking out of turn, but in an interview BEFORE last years draft, on 980 (you can find the actual show in 980's archives for Doc Walker), he said with Cerrato by his side, that the O line is fine as is and he doesn't agree that they need further upgrading. Danny goes on to say how Chris Samuels is still young, ditto Randy Thomas.

You have the quote wrong. Zorn said some of those things:

On the pressing nature of finding an offensive tackle:

Zorn: "Well, right now, we're hoping that Stephon Heyer and Jon Jansen battle. I mean, the position is open on that side. but we have improved the offensive line since the offseason. I mean, we acquired Derrick Dockery, who has worked very hard. Randy Thomas is definitely improved with his surgery and his program, he is going great guns. And then, I don't know if people noticed, but last year, mid- to the end of the season, we acquired a couple of guys -- we lost a couple too, but we acquired a couple of guys that look to be in the mix as well. Addressing the right tackle or an offensive line position, I think, is important to us. But whether it's specifically right tackle, right guard, left guard, center, whatever ... I mean, Chris Samuels is sitting there pretty solid at left tackle. We can strengthen our offensive line by acquiring a lineman, no question."

What did Vinny say regarding the OL?

On what positions have are the strongest later in the Draft:

Cerrato: "I think you can find probably, you can find probably any position later in the draft because everybody is grading them differently. Everybody looks for a different thing. I think that you can find pretty much any position throughout. I think probably one of the hardest ones to find would be offensive guard. Usually o-line goes quickly. Usually the big guys go fast."

The reality that a lot of the good OL were likely to be off the board later in the draft.

And where was Vinny during the Gibbs years? Was he not with the team? We all read he was part of the trifecta of decision makers -- he, Danny and Gibbs were the FO team -- with Cerrato being the main guy recommending specific target players, and Vinny with Danny for the most part negotiating the terms of the deals. Gibbs had the final say. But what is it about Vinny's past that makes anyone believe that Gibbs trading draft picks goes against the grain of how Vinny operates?

I don't know where you get that Vinny was the "main guy". The buck stopped at Gibbs for the most part. Gibbs was also responsible for trading away so many picks, which made it tough when OL did start becoming a need.

If you ever heard Vinny or Danny elaborate on what they learned about past mistakes, I don't recall them mention the idea of no more trading draft picks, its usually something to the effect if they are going to pursue a player via free agency or a trade, they want to go younger then getting veterans past their prime. Though they did throw that out the window in the Jason Taylor trade.

Taylor was a reaction move based on injuries, so that is an exception.

But, other than that, they haven't traded away picks for players. Instead, the focus has been mostly trading down and getting more picks.

Last year they didn't trade draft picks but boy did they try when they were trying to get Jay Cutler.

It is unknown how hard they tried to trade for Cutler. I have a feeling they were probably out of the running early, tho they may have talked to Cleveland to get back into things.

But, any team with an unsettled QB position would have been foolish not to look into trading for Cutler.

[Oldfan]

so then your conclusion isn't that vinny ignored the line, it's that he improved it to the best of his abilities as our GM?

That's right.

[Duckus]

Vinny is not going anywhere. It is hilarious that people think he is.

[bikie]

so then your conclusion isn't that vinny ignored the line, it's that he improved it to the best of his abilities as our GM?

That's right.

well, then we agree on one thing, my friend... that our line reflects vinny's ability as a GM

[Skinsinparadise]

It's hard to prove this, but my seat-of-the-pants opinion is that the Redskins hit rate is better than the Eagles and Cowboys, but not as good as the Giants. The Eagles have stockpiled draft picks, though, while the Skins have traded too many of theirs away, especially in rounds 2, 3 and 4.

I got to go back and look, but I can't think of the last big player that Vinny drafted in the 4th rounder or lower. But I can think of players like that for our division rivals. I'd gather some of the finer GM's can take it a step beyond finding good players in the first two rounds but can dig deeper.

Vinny seems to have a good hit rate with early picks, and a mix of busts and depth players in the lower rounds. Overall, that's good but IMO not earth shattering. But I am gathering there is a reason that I have never read or heard ONE football analyst, say Vinny is one of the best GM's in the game.

I do buy the idea that the biggest problem is that this team hasn't had enough draft picks to build a team. I don't buy into the idea that the trade draft picks like crazy approach was all Gibbs, and Vinny left to his own devices doesn't subscribe to Gibbs' philosophy. There is too much IMO as I pointed out that contradicts that.

[Oldfan]

well, then we agree on one thing, my friend... that our line reflects vinny's ability as a GM

That's a cute spin.

[SkinsNumberOne]

Vinny seems to have a good hit rate with early picks, and a mix of busts and depth players in the lower rounds. Overall, that's good but IMO not earth shattering. But I am gathering there is a reason that I have never read or heard ONE football analyst, say Vinny is one of the best GM's in the game.

Twice in the last 10 years Vinny was jobless.

Twice in the last 10 years when jobless, he only eventually found work in one city with an NFL team: Washington.

[Oldfan]

...I do buy the idea that the biggest problem is that this team hasn't had enough draft picks to build a team. I don't buy into the idea that the trade draft picks like crazy approach was all Gibbs, and Vinny left to his own devices doesn't subscribe to Gibbs' philosophy. There is too much IMO as I pointed out that contradicts that.

My guess that the wholesale trading of picks and the emphasis on building through FA was Gibbs led, with Dan and Vinny following gleefully -- until the 2006 season rocked their boat. Then, all three agreed that the plan should be shelved. But, Gibbs had the reins, so he should be held accountable.

[Skinsinparadise]

You have the quote wrong. Zorn said some of those things:

No, I don't have the wrong quote. The fact that Zorn said something similar, fine, so what? I tried to post a link to the radio show but it won't let me. I listened to the show again a couple of weeks ago. If you go to 980's archives and listen to the pre draft show with Doc Walker, Zorn, Snyder and Cerrato were on it. Go to part 2 of that show and you will hear Snyder talk about the O line. He talks about how Samuels is younger than the Cowboys LT Adams, so in his eyes Samuels is young. He says Thomas is like 30, 31 (he is actually 33 and almost 34) And goes through the whole drill.

I don't know where you get that Vinny was the "main guy".

I don't know if you are trying to discredit my point by taking "main" out of context but I'll be polite and assume that was an error or you mistook my statement. If you read my post carefully. I said Gibbs had final say. I said from what I read Vinny was the main guy who evaluated players based on Gibbs' expressed needs.

Have you read differently? Gibbs was the guy scouting, coming up with the player recommendations? If so, Gibbs was one busy guy. I'll see if I can find the most definitive article on this which I recall was a WP article at the end of 06 season.

Taylor was a reaction move based on injuries, so that is an exception.

OK I changed my mind now that I know there was a reason for it. Just kidding. When isn't there a reason for any trade? Whether that reason is good or bad, is a different story. But a reason always exists. Isn't there always a reason for making a trade? I guess Gibbs is exempt for the Duckett deal because Portis got hurt in the pre season?

Yeah most teams trade their 2nd rounders to react to an injury for players pushing 35, why should we fault the Redskins?

But, other than that, they haven't traded away picks for players. Instead, the focus has been mostly trading down and getting more picks.

in 2 years they have in one year traded a 2nd and 6th. And in the other tried to trade their first and next years first. And Vinny has defended to this day the Taylor trade and said he would do it again.

It is unknown how hard they tried to trade for Cutler. I have a feeling they were probably out of the running early, tho they may have talked to Cleveland to get back into things.

Ha, OK, with due respect I'll take what I read and heard, and Vinny and Zorn who for that matter didn't deny they aggressively went after Cutler over your "feeling" that it wasn't an intense as it might have seemed.

But, any team with an unsettled QB position would have been foolish not to look into trading for Cutler.

OK, so its OK to trade draft picks if its a player you want and need. When do teams make trades for players they don't want or believe fill a need?

I think that Cerrato is fine as a GM, not great, not bad like some say, but OK. I'd like better than OK, that's all. Your posts read like this dude could do no wrong, and he's hired you to do his PR so you need to defend him at all costs about everything.

You seem to be saying it's OK to trade picks if you have an injury or if its a big position that fills a need. And in those cases, it doesn't really count? You are more or less arguing that trading picks are fine if it works in the context and criteria that YOU deem important. Otherwise they aren't really trading draft picks.

I guess I commend the argument style because you can't lose with it, even if the counter point directly disputes your point, its shot down anyway because you can bring whatever context you choose to represent the definitive criteria to judge this.

[bikie]

My guess that the wholesale trading of picks and the emphasis on building through FA was Gibbs led, with Dan and Vinny following gleefully -- until the 2006 season rocked their boat. Then, all three agreed that the plan should be shelved. But, Gibbs had the reins, so he should be held accountable.

why would that be your guess? the 5 years snyder owned the team before gibbs, we averaged 6 picks a draft... during the gibbs era, we average 5... in fact the year preceding gibbs, we went into the draft with a 2, 3, and 7... the practice of building through FA at the expense of the draft was already in place long before gibbs came on board...

[illone]

Vinny's job is safe, but not based on his performance.

Unfortunately sometimes in life it's not what you know, it's who you know, or how much stock you have in a company.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

When a team is on a 5-15 streak, there is no need to change anything. We are rolling.