SI's Best and Worst Owners

[scuppajones]

Snyder does less with more then anyone else. With the amount of money the Skins generate we should be competing for the Super bowl every year. Instead because of Snyder's buffonery and giant ego, we are the laughing stock of the league. I hate Danny boy.

[MattFancy]

Snyder does less with more then anyone else. With the amount of money the Skins generate we should be competing for the Super bowl every year. Instead because of Snyder's buffonery and giant ego, we are the laughing stock of the league. I hate Danny boy.

This is true, but Snyder has no control over how people play on the field. I'd say with the exception of Zorn, the other 3 coaches Snyder has hired have been well sought after coaches. Marty has a great history in this league, even though he hasn't won a Super Bowl. Spurrier was thought of the next big thing when he decided to leave Florida and see if his offense could work in the NFL, I doubt we were the only team interested in him. And of course Joe Gibbs, I don't thinkt here was one person here who had a problem with bringing him back.

For some reason it just seems like we bring in good players and coaches, but they just don't have success here. We do a decent job in the draft of finding staters like Landry, Taylor, Cooley, Rogers, McIntosh, Montgomery, Golston, etc. We bring in solid vets like Portis, Washington, Fletcher, Springs, and even Jason Taylor. Yet somehow, they can't seem to put it all together. Is that all Snyder's fault? I don't see how it can be all on him. Maybe at time he seems a little impatient, but us fans are the same way.

Maybe its because Snyder just wants to win so bad that he acts too quickly at times, I don't know. But you can't fault a guy that does great things for his players and tries to bring a Super Bowl trophy back to DC. I'd rather have an owner thats willing to spend money and make the team better, then someone who treats the team like a business and is all about making money for himself and not worrying about what the team does.

[Thinking Skins]

I'll admit that I haven't been following this discussion too closely. but on the Robert Kraft debate, a few facts.

Robert Kraft purchased the Patriots in 1994. He then went and hired Bill Parcells who coached records of 10-6, 6-10, 11-5 and a SB appearance in 1996. This was with Drew Bledsoe at QB (way before Bellicheat and Brady).

Then Parcells leaves and he hires Pete Carrol who coached records of 10-6, 9-7, 8-8 (all with Bledsoe at QB).

Then Carrol leaves and he brings in Bellicheat who coahced records of 5-11, 11-5, 9-7, 14-2, 14-2, 10-6, 12-4, 16-0.

Tom Brady took over in 2001 and coincides with the most recent success of the franchise, but the guy's had only 3 coaches in the last 15 years and they've only had two losing seasons in that time span. Balance that out with 4 super Bowl appearances, 3 victories, with two different QBs.

Just like I don't give Snyder all the blame for the Redskins problems, I don't give Kraft all the credit for the Patriots success. But I do look at the turnaround they made when he took over and it looks like he's done something right.

I've got no problems with calling him one of the best owners in the league (although I think I may put Rooney ahead of him).

[TheLongshot]

I'll admit that I haven't been following this discussion too closely. but on the Robert Kraft debate, a few facts.

Robert Kraft purchased the Patriots in 1994. He then went and hired Bill Parcells who coached records of 10-6, 6-10, 11-5 and a SB appearance in 1996. This was with Drew Bledsoe at QB (way before Bellicheat and Brady).

Then Parcells leaves and he hires Pete Carrol who coached records of 10-6, 9-7, 8-8 (all with Bledsoe at QB).

Then Carrol leaves and he brings in Bellicheat who coahced records of 5-11, 11-5, 9-7, 14-2, 14-2, 10-6, 12-4, 16-0.

Tom Brady took over in 2001 and coincides with the most recent success of the franchise, but the guy's had only 3 coaches in the last 15 years and they've only had two losing seasons in that time span. Balance that out with 4 super Bowl appearances, 3 victories, with two different QBs.

Just like I don't give Snyder all the blame for the Redskins problems, I don't give Kraft all the credit for the Patriots success. But I do look at the turnaround they made when he took over and it looks like he's done something right.

I've got no problems with calling him one of the best owners in the league (although I think I may put Rooney ahead of him).

Well, there are a few things to say about that. First, Parcells ultimately left because of his disagreements with ownership. Kraft did fire Carroll, which in hindsight may have been questionable but you don't know what was happening behind closed doors. As for Belichick, the Patriots did have to pay a price for him, giving a first round pick to the Jets to bring him on board. I do think that they are fortunate that it has worked out, because if they didn't find Brady when they did they'd probably be a pretty mediocre football team.

I think having a guy like Brady on your team makes working a lot of aspects about your team a lot easier, and while they might have been able to work some of the things that they have done in recent years, they also have gotten away with some lesser talent in certain areas of the team at various times.

As for Pioli, I agree with Art's assessment that he's got a lot to prove as a FO guy, since everything he's done has been with Belichick. Also, moving to a new city doesn't mean you are going to be quite as successful as the previous stop. Parcells seems to be a rarity in this league: a guy who can spin lead into gold wherever he goes.

[Horatio]

Snyder will be fine...Hall of famer George Preston Marshall got his on the front end but declined on the back end but no one is questioning how great a owner he was after going almost 30 years without a winning record.

In Marshall's case, there was no "internets" back then for the folks to rightfully bash him for his mismanagement. Remember, the NFL integrated in 1947....but the Redskins didn't until 1962 all because of Marshall's well-documented racism. I'm sure people were complaining about Marshall in the stands, though.

We were 5 years without a playoff appearance before the Snyder era until he gave us 3 in the last 12.

That's kind of a left-handed compliment, isn't it? I don't think just making the playoffs every four years is sufficient for this fan base.

Our fans as well as the rest of the NFL will be singing his praises soon enough.

If Snyder is ultimately successful, why would the rest of the NFL sing his praises? Wouldn't the fans of the other 31 teams just hate him for his success?

[Horatio]

We all want to win it.

The disconnect is you think it's Snyder's job to win it.

It's not. Snyder's job is to provide the people who's job it is to win it what they say they need to accomplish that goal. Nothing more. Nothing less. He owns the team. He doesn't control what it does on the field. He doesn't call plays. He doesn't prepare the team. He doesn't pick players. He funds the organization lavishly and responds to requests made of him. That is the mark of an owner who's doing what he's supposed to do.

But Snyder does deserve blame for overpaying free agents who come to the team. It's well-known that NFL players want to come to Washington...to get PAID. Once a player gets a huge, guaranteed paycheck, it reduces his incentive to be productive on the field. This is not true for every NFL player, but it seems a large number of free agents who come here fail to play near their former levels.

We aren't getting guys who will play their guts out to WIN, and for that Snyder deserves a good amount of the blame because he is too eager with his wallet.

[MattFancy]

But Snyder does deserve blame for overpaying free agents who come to the team. It's well-known that NFL players want to come to Washington...to get PAID. Once a player gets a huge, guaranteed paycheck, it reduces his incentive to be productive on the field. This is not true for every NFL player, but it seems a large number of free agents who come here fail to play near their former levels.

We aren't getting guys who will play their guts out to WIN, and for that Snyder deserves a good amount of the blame because he is too eager with his wallet.

How do you know we overpay for someone? If Haynesworth makes the Pro Bowl every year while he is here, did we overpay for him? What if Jason Taylor doesn't get hurt last year and had 10 sacks or so, did we overpay him? People only say we overpaid for someone after they have flopped. IF they play well, then its a great investment. Plus, its not our money so I don't care how Snyder spends it as long as he is bringing in capable players.

[NewCliche21]

How do you know we overpay for someone? If Haynesworth makes the Pro Bowl every year while he is here, did we overpay for him? What if Jason Taylor doesn't get hurt last year and had 10 sacks or so, did we overpay him? People only say we overpaid for someone after they have flopped. IF they play well, then its a great investment. Plus, its not our money so I don't care how Snyder spends it as long as he is bringing in capable players.

We overpaid for Taylor because of the second-round pick. Even if he DID give us 10 sacks, he still wasn't worth that. That goes back to Snyder.

[MattFancy]

We overpaid for Taylor because of the second-round pick. Even if he DID give us 10 sacks, he still wasn't worth that. That goes back to Snyder.

Why Snyder and not Vinny? I don't Snyder was talking to Parcells about the trade. Plus at the time, we had just lost 2 DEs on the first day of trainning camp.

[Thinking Skins]

Well, there are a few things to say about that. First, Parcells ultimately left because of his disagreements with ownership. Kraft did fire Carroll, which in hindsight may have been questionable but you don't know what was happening behind closed doors. As for Belichick, the Patriots did have to pay a price for him, giving a first round pick to the Jets to bring him on board. I do think that they are fortunate that it has worked out, because if they didn't find Brady when they did they'd probably be a pretty mediocre football team.

Mostly all true statements, but look at two immediate things that Kraft did with his coaches that Snyder didn't. Kraft kept his first two coaches for at least 3 years a piece. Now that may not be too long in coaching standards, but its longer than Norv lasted (a year and a half), longer than Robiske lasted (half a year), but if you don't want to count them cause they weren't hired by Snyder, its longer than Marty lasted (a year) and longer than Spurrier lasted (2 years). Gibbs lasted 4 years and then we hired Zorn and there is talk about him being on the hot seat (albeit none that I've heard of from Vinny or Snyder).

The other thing is that Kraft and the Patriots had a winning record BEFORE Brady. People act like Drew Bledsoe was hogwash in New England. The dude was a Pro-Bowl QB who took his team to the SB. Thats not something that can't be built around. In fact, he's so good that Parcells signed him when he went to rebuild Dallas. I can't say that Bledsoe would be as good as Brady, but I think they'd have been just as good as they'd been (putting up records of at or above .500 for the most part).

I think having a guy like Brady on your team makes working a lot of aspects about your team a lot easier, and while they might have been able to work some of the things that they have done in recent years, they also have gotten away with some lesser talent in certain areas of the team at various times.

I'll agree that having a franchise QB eases a lot of things, but having Manning in Indy didn't save their head coach's job (the one before Dungy). Similarly Reeves having Elway didn't save his career. Part of this I'm willing to vet to just dumb luck that Brady is that good.

But look more closely at Bellicheat's first season with the Pats 5-11. Thats not a nice looking record. Maybe I'm being too harsh on Danny, but the way this town was with our 8-8 season, I find it hard to believe we'd be willing to sit through Zorn going 5-11 in his first season.

Even if we back up and look at the days under Carroll - he took over a SB team and each year they got progressively worse, but the owner still had patience with him. Danny's not known for having any kind of patience similar to that. In fact he's known for being just the opposite, the kind of in your face owner who expects immediate results, with a frame of mind that I'm buying you the goods to win now, so WIN NOW!

As for Pioli, I agree with Art's assessment that he's got a lot to prove as a FO guy, since everything he's done has been with Belichick. Also, moving to a new city doesn't mean you are going to be quite as successful as the previous stop. Parcells seems to be a rarity in this league: a guy who can spin lead into gold wherever he goes.

I'm not vouching for Pioli or Belicheat. I'm just saying I can understand the idea of Kraft (and Rooney) being considered some of the best owners in the league (and I'd add Polian to that list too).

[Thinking Skins]

Why Snyder and not Vinny? I don't Snyder was talking to Parcells about the trade. Plus at the time, we had just lost 2 DEs on the first day of trainning camp.

Notice the stance Snyder took this year. He publicly stated "we're not trading our 2010 first rounder!" and we didn't. I guess Snyder didn't value the 2009 second rounder.

[Art]

We overpaid for Taylor because of the second-round pick. Even if he DID give us 10 sacks, he still wasn't worth that. That goes back to Snyder.

That's ludicrous. Snyder had ZERO to do with the cost of the trade. When Daniels was down and the team met to discuss options, he told them to do whatever they needed to get whatever they felt they needed. He'd take care of any monetary costs. As a good owner, he gave his people authorization to make whatever move THEY wanted to get a weakness fixed leading into the season.

Do you actually think Snyder wast he one who traded that pick? This may well be something you can be legitimately upset with Cerrato over, but, that is unfair. When Daniels went down, having the ability to acquire an excellent player at that position that quickly was quite a positive event. If he'd been who he'd always been we'd have been quite pleased. Unfortuantely he suffered his first significant injury-plagued season. But, if Taylor was the guy he'd been the last 8 years really, he'd have been a boon.

When you make such a move you do so with the expectation a healthy, productive player won't suddenly become unhealthy. But that's a risk, as always.

[MattFancy]

Notice the stance Snyder took this year. He publicly stated "we're not trading our 2010 first rounder!" and we didn't. I guess Snyder didn't value the 2009 second rounder.

Maybe Vinny didn't value the 2nd round pick? Why couldn't have Snyder told Vinny that he wanted to keep next year's draft picks? I'm not sure how you get to the point of Snyder not valuing the 2009 2nd rounder because he didn't want to trade our 1st in 2010.

[ntotoro]

Only at Extremeskins can we see people arguing over the Pats' FO having been overrated and ours not being a problem.

****ing delusional.

[Art]

Notice the stance Snyder took this year. He publicly stated "we're not trading our 2010 first rounder!" and we didn't. I guess Snyder didn't value the 2009 second rounder.

And, technically, that is an example of Snyder being a bad owner, overruling his football people by putting in an artificial ownership ruling that limits their ability to accomplish that which they deem important. Had they come to a conclusion that Cutler or Sanchez were the clear answers for us, being hamstrung by the man upstairs to be unable to make such a move is actually what defines poor ownership.

You never want your owner inteferring with the people he's hired. Now, it's equally likely that his people told him they were not going to make such a trade at this time because no one was that valuable to them and it was their conclusion which was restated by Snyder. So we would have to know how that came about to assess positive or negative traits.

But, in the end, most of the people who demand Snyder stay out of things would be THRILLED if Snyder were the cat to say, "Nope, no trading next year's first." When, the fact is, you should be furious he would intefere with his people in that way.

[Art]

Only at Extremeskins can we see people arguing over the Pats' FO having been overrated and ours not being a problem.

****ing delusional.

As Longshot mentioned above, Kraft ran one of the league's finest coaches out of town in a power struggle. He replaced him with an average coach who he fired. He replaced him, surrendering draft picks, with a coach who'd been an exceptional loser as a head coach and then proceeded to be an exceptional loser in New England, and was on his way to losing more, when Brady saved his coaching life.

Suddenly they are a model. The Pats do a fine job of finding players for the systems in place there and because Brady rescued that organization those systems are still in place. It was a nice find by them, but, certainly not anyone's expectation of Brady when drafted that he'd be who he's been. And because of him, that team is a very attractive team to go to and play for. No doubt.

But, again, if Colt is the next Tom Brady, in five years, we'll be wondering at how great our front office is and I'll be the only one here who'll say nothing's really changed. We just got lucky on a franchise QB and everything seems healthy.

[MattFancy]

And, technically, that is an example of Snyder being a bad owner, overruling his football people by putting in an artificial ownership ruling that limits their ability to accomplish that which they deem important. Had they come to a conclusion that Cutler or Sanchez were the clear answers for us, being hamstrung by the man upstairs to be unable to make such a move is actually what defines poor ownership.

You never want your owner inteferring with the people he's hired. Now, it's equally likely that his people told him they were not going to make such a trade at this time because no one was that valuable to them and it was their conclusion which was restated by Snyder. So we would have to know how that came about to assess positive or negative traits.

But, in the end, most of the people who demand Snyder stay out of things would be THRILLED if Snyder were the cat to say, "Nope, no trading next year's first." When, the fact is, you should be furious he would intefere with his people in that way.

I find it funny as well. People don't want him to intefere but when he makes a statement people like, they think its great, but if its something they dont want to hear, they get angry and say hes a horrible owner

[MassSkinsFan]

If they are wrong, it doesn't make Snyder wrong. If they are right, it doesn't make Snyder right. You don't get to demand on one hand that he stay out of things, then blame him for things you want him out of.

Art,

I agree with these statements for their logic. However, someone needs to be accountable to the customer. As you've argued, this is a unique business system (professional sports teams). So, who is accountable to the customers here and who feel the consequences if the customers decide to take their custom elsewhere?

[Thinking Skins]

Maybe Vinny didn't value the 2nd round pick? Why couldn't have Snyder told Vinny that he wanted to keep next year's draft picks? I'm not sure how you get to the point of Snyder not valuing the 2009 2nd rounder because he didn't want to trade our 1st in 2010.

The question was raised why it comes back to Snyder and not Vinny. Because Snyder could have said "keep my picks" like he did for the 2010 first rounder. If Snyder told Vinny to keep the picks, he wouldn't have let Vinny trade the 2009 2nd rounder. The fact that he allowed it means that he valued JT equal to or more than the 2009 2nd rounder (and remember that all this was AFTER Vinny had come out saying he didn't want JT, and didn't want to trade any of our draft picks...wonder if Snyder WAS the motivating force behind this trade).

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

Brady transformed them. Once he did, he helped establish them. Once a team is established it can build within a system and such teams, with stability, are always a good bet to be competitive and functioning. Brady allowed Belichick not to get fired. After which, they were able to build players within their specific system. Knowing what you need and who fits, over time, allows you a stable platform to build upon, which, ultimately sets you above other teams. Teams with such platforms are all founded on solid QB play to achieve them.

Reid would have been fired if McNabb turned out differently. Same with Belichick and Brady. The Colts would be the Lions if Manning wasn't Peyton. Once you hit on that spot, everything else flows. Now, what the Steelers did when hiring Tomlin and retaining their defensive foundation was to say they had a successful system in place to draft for and they wanted to maintain it and let Tomlin tinker with it.

We did the same with Blache when Gibbs left. That system is functioning. We have an idea how to get players for it. An idea who works. Who doesn't. It's certainly been the strongest thing we've had over the last 10 years really, though the system is different now and for the last five, obviously.

Pioli's pick in this draft is his effort to find a player to fit a specific system. If the system doesn't work and they can't get it going there, Pioli will be fired and remembered for blowing the most important pick he had, no matter how good Jackson might be in a 3-4, because they will convert to something else.

Vinny has played a role in providing very good players for the various people he's worked for and with. He's the least of our concerns. It is not, for example, Vinny's failure that couldn't generate an working offense with very good level talent at a number of positions.

While it is true it takes more than an elite QB to become championship level, it requires a top QB to be competitive consistently in this league.

and i pretty much agree with everything you said, i just think youre going a little overboard calling both those guys losers. i hate belichick as much as the next guy, but the dude can coach. he had no problem making sure they went 11-5 last year without brady. while i do agree that brady makes him look better, again i will say (which you agreed with) it takes more than just an elite QB.

that being said, pioli has been an integral part in building these championship new england teams so theres no reason to think that he'll be some idiot in KC. he very well could be, but odds are he will succeed. the last guy that left their scouting dept, thomas dimitrioff, had no problem finding a QB quickly for the falcons. im hoping you dont think he was some loser too just because he was scouting for a team that had tom brady. dimitrioff literally went into the falcons organization that had gone 3-13, drafted a QB and signed a backup runningback, and flipped them over to 11-5. thats impressive no matter how you slice it.

[Art]

Art,

I agree with these statements for their logic. However, someone needs to be accountable to the customer. As you've argued, this is a unique business system (professional sports teams). So, who is accountable to the customers here and who feel the consequences if the customers decide to take their custom elsewhere?

The people in charge. Joe Gibbs when he was here. Jim Zorn now. We're a head coach "owned" team in that we give vast authority to shape the roster and make the decisions to the head coach. The system with Gibbs is not terribly different under Zorn save it's not contractually part of Zorn's deal I don't believe, where it was given Gibbs via contract.

Gibbs instilled some positive things for us we hope pay dividends. Snyder really enjoyed the setup with Gibbs and has tried to carry that forward. With the loss of Gibbs, Snyder did try to maintain relatively solid consistency, maintaining the core functions and coaches to try to build on what positive things Gibbs did bring.

The move to Zorn and the WCO is, certainly, a change, but even there, Zorn maintained some of the language within his system that we were used to. Madden never fully understood what it meant to maintain the Gibbs running game under Zorn. We didn't have the same plays, Zorn just turned HIS running plays into Gibbs language so players could adopt it quicker. And, fortunately, the players we had, save perhaps Campbell -- though he did well in college in the WCO -- were well suited to the WCO.

Now, if the collaborative model continues to fail -- it's the model we've had now for five years and good portions of the Spurrier time before Spurrier basically opted out of any responsibility, it's likely we'll want it to change. The problem is so few actually seem to even comprehend the model that is in place, so they aren't actually questioning it as they likely would approve of it.

[Thinking Skins]

And, technically, that is an example of Snyder being a bad owner, overruling his football people by putting in an artificial ownership ruling that limits their ability to accomplish that which they deem important. Had they come to a conclusion that Cutler or Sanchez were the clear answers for us, being hamstrung by the man upstairs to be unable to make such a move is actually what defines poor ownership.

So the idea of Snyder being involved in the front office decisions is an example of a bad owner? I wasn't even gonna go that far because I figured you wouldn't accept that he wants to be involved.

I don't have a problem with ownership being involved. I can completely understand wanting to know any and everything about where I'm putting my money. But there's a cost of that. Just like Al Davis and Jerry Jones get criticized for the mistakes of their teams, Snyder should be criticized too. He may not be as involved as those owners, but we have records indicating his involvement.

Maybe his problem is that he keeps quiet at the wrong times and speaks up at the wrong times. Maybe he's too loyal to a guy like Vinny.

There are a lot of different ideas to be suggested on the subject. What I find interesting though is how you seem to have such a definitive viewpoint on this. I understand that you get more access than most here on this site, but is it really that hard for you to see why the media and some of the fans could think he's a bad owner? Even if you disagree, you act like its not even a logial possibility for soembody to think that.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

That's ludicrous. Snyder had ZERO to do with the cost of the trade. When Daniels was down and the team met to discuss options, he told them to do whatever they needed to get whatever they felt they needed. He'd take care of any monetary costs. As a good owner, he gave his people authorization to make whatever move THEY wanted to get a weakness fixed leading into the season.

Do you actually think Snyder wast he one who traded that pick? This may well be something you can be legitimately upset with Cerrato over, but, that is unfair. When Daniels went down, having the ability to acquire an excellent player at that position that quickly was quite a positive event. If he'd been who he'd always been we'd have been quite pleased. Unfortuantely he suffered his first significant injury-plagued season. But, if Taylor was the guy he'd been the last 8 years really, he'd have been a boon.

When you make such a move you do so with the expectation a healthy, productive player won't suddenly become unhealthy. But that's a risk, as always.

but again, this goes back to vinny being a moron. if vinny was a saavy football guy, he'd know that we should have had no problem putting demetric evans into that role (which is exactly what we ended up doing) and our defense was fine with him. evans played so well he got a contract to start for another team, and were definitely missing his depth right now. and we could have had a 2nd rounder this season to draft an oline or another dlineman, or possibly used it for trading purposes to draft sanchez *dodges tomatoes*.

again, poor management. im putting this on snyder because its his decision to keep vinny around making these calls. if he would hire a person who wasnt an idiot, we'd be much better off.

and the dolphins bent us over on that deal and everyone (hopefully) knows it. taylor is now playing for barely over the vet min with the team he left one year later. thats why parcells is a good football guy, and vinny is not.

[Never4get#21]

The great thing about Danny is that if he ever gets someone in the FO that actually can evaluate talent then his spending will be a positive. When Danny goes after someone he usually gets him. Which could bode well for the Skins if he was advised about the proper players to go after.

[Art]

and i pretty much agree with everything you said, i just think youre going a little overboard calling both those guys losers. i hate belichick as much as the next guy, but the dude can coach. he had no problem making sure they went 11-5 last year without brady. while i do agree that brady makes him look better, again i will say (which you agreed with) it takes more than just an elite QB.

that being said, pioli has been an integral part in building these championship new england teams so theres no reason to think that he'll be some idiot in KC. he very well could be, but odds are he will succeed. the last guy that left their scouting dept, thomas dimitrioff, had no problem finding a QB quickly for the falcons. im hoping you dont think he was some loser too just because he was scouting for a team that had tom brady. dimitrioff literally went into the falcons organization that had gone 3-13, drafted a QB and signed a backup runningback, and flipped them over to 11-5. thats impressive no matter how you slice it.

Pioli's role is integral to the Pats process, but, it's integral in the way Vinny is integral here. He, like Vinny, made ZERO personnel decisions. Belichick made them all. All Pioli did was pull together scouting data and various opinions, and provided his own, and Belichick went how he went. Sometimes that was very good. Sometimes that was not as good -- i.e. look at their 2007 draft where I think one guy is left on the active roster though that may be by memory and not fully correct.

Now Pioli is making the calls. To expect similar success would be unlikely barring finding a true franchise QB. I expect if KC doesn't play the easiest schedule of the modern era as the Pats did you might have a hard time seeing what Cassel is good at. Though, with four games against cake defenses he could be ok there .