SI's Best and Worst Owners

[TheLongshot]

Actually I am. I think it was Mad Mike who did an informative post on just this subject, and he was saying we should give the credit to Scott Campbell because when he was in charge of scouting, we had our best drafts. When he moved over to pro personnel, we had our best free agencies. Now he's in charge of player personnel. I actually had (have?) kinda high hopes for this front office knowing that he got a promotion last year...but we still traded for Taylor. So is Campbell to blame for that one too? I don't know.

You can always make a move that looks good and it ends up turning bad. Taylor got a couple of freak injuries when he hadn't had the history of getting hurt. It is kinda hard to blame the FO for that.

If Taylor was mismanaged when he was here, that's the responsibility of the coaching staff.

[Art]

But this shows a problem with this "democracy" Front Office approach. How do we reward success and penalize failures? We want to do this right? From what I've seen when Campbell was in charge of scouting we had good drafts. When Campbell was in charge of pro personnel we had good free agency. So I'd think that Campbell's grade is high in both these areas - hence he got a promotion and the other guy got fired.

So this shows that Snyder's holding people responsible for their "grades". And what do these promotions mean? I'd guess that it means that their votes hold more importance. I mean should the DB coach have as much input as the DL coach on how good Haynesworth is? Similarly, I'd think that when Campbell was over scouting, he had more of a vote on the draft picks and less of a vote on free agency. And when he was over free agency, his vote's power was probably switched. Now he probably has a higher vote (than he previously did) in both areas.

And if we get into this heirarchy of votes, then what we get into is a partial ordering of the coaching staff. The exception is that we have a two (three) headed monster because we don't know whose vote counts more Vinny or Zorn (or Snyder).

This is the simple answer. Most simple of all. As everyone is contributing, you reward those who are getting it right more often than getting it wrong. Cerrato, for example, is rumored to have received GREAT credit for wanting Clinton Portis in the worst way, only to have it not be met with as much enthusiasm by others. If Campbell gave Arch and Lloyd failing grades, only to find others fully disagree, he'll be rewarded for consistently hitting it right and those who get it wrong may likely have themselves removed from the process in some way.

[Oldfan]

Nope. That goes hand and hand with setting your team up. I don't think an owner should hire the assistant coaches like we did last offseason, but, in the flux of setting up your program when Gibbs left, the owner, Snyder in this case, determined he wanted to shift offensive systems and retain defensive systems and went about hiring people to do just that. I'm fine with that being the owner's decision. Once the people are hired, step out of their way.

Okay, we're pretty much on the same page now. You sound like you're opposed to the Jerry Jones level of owner involvement, but you're fine with an owner deciding the broad strokes of the plan before hiring. That's my feel for it too.

[Art]

Okay, we're pretty much on the same page now. You sound like you're opposed to the Jerry Jones level of owner involvement, but you're fine with an owner deciding the broad strokes of the plan before hiring. That's my feel for it too.

Yep. That's where I am. I would never like an owner being the chief personnel man and guy who makes all the decisions. Not an owner. Not his family.

[Thinking Skins]

You can always make a move that looks good and it ends up turning bad. Taylor got a couple of freak injuries when he hadn't had the history of getting hurt. It is kinda hard to blame the FO for that.

If Taylor was mismanaged when he was here, that's the responsibility of the coaching staff.

I was screaming loudly against the Taylor move because I didn't think he was worth a 2nd rounder. We traded a 4th and a 5th for Kendall (I thought that was a bit much), but thats the highest I'd have been willing to trade for a guy like Taylor who was going to be with us AT MOST two years.

Funny thing is that I thought he'd immediately sure up our pass rushing needs. Boy was I wrong.

[Oldfan]

If Taylor was mismanaged when he was here, that's the responsibility of the coaching staff.

Not entirely. It's the responsibility of the personnel people to get players we can use. It's not that hard to ask a simple question:

"Greg, D'angelo Hall is available, but his game doesn't fit your scheme. Can you adapt, or should we forget him?"

[TheLongshot]

I was screaming loudly against the Taylor move because I didn't think he was worth a 2nd rounder. We traded a 4th and a 5th for Kendall (I thought that was a bit much), but thats the highest I'd have been willing to trade for a guy like Taylor who was going to be with us AT MOST two years.

Funny thing is that I thought he'd immediately sure up our pass rushing needs. Boy was I wrong.

Considering that he probably was going to go to the Giants at around that price (In the same deal that sent Shockey to the Saints) if he didn't go to us, it is hard to say that it was too high.

BTW, we traded just a 4th round pick for Kendall, not a 4th and a 5th.

Not entirely. It's the responsibility of the personnel people to get players we can use. It's not that hard to ask a simple question:

"Greg, D'angelo Hall is available, but his game doesn't fit your scheme. Can you adapt, or should we forget him?"

What makes you think he didn't?

[Oldfan]

What makes you think he didn't?

I don't need to assume anything. Your statement places the fault on the coaching staff, so you are the one assuming that the personnel people are blameless.

If Taylor was mismanaged when he was here, that's the responsibility of the coaching staff.

[TheLongshot]

I don't need to assume anything. Your statement places the fault on the coaching staff, so you are the one assuming that the personnel people are blameless.

No, I said if he was mismanaged. That goes beyond the responsibility of the personnel department. It is up to them to get the players the team needs. It is up to the coaching staff to use the players that they got correctly.

If you are suggesting something else, don't be shy. Say what's on your mind.

[Oldfan]

If you are suggesting something else, don't be shy. Say what's on your mind.

I don't have a clue about what's that's supposed to mean. Take your own advice. Say what you mean.

No, I said if he was mismanaged. That goes beyond the responsibility of the personnel department. It is up to them to get the players the team needs. It is up to the coaching staff to use the players that they got correctly.

It is the responsibility of the personnel department to provide players the coaches can use, not to decide for themselves what kind of players the team needs.

It is not mismanagement by the coaches when they don't change their scheme to adapt to misfit players. There was a disconnect someplace when Jason Taylor was brought here. Without knowing all the facts, we can't blame Blache. The trade happened very quickly after the injuries to Daniels and Buzbee. Was Greg consulted beforehand? If not, he should have been.

[Thinking Skins]

This is the simple answer. Most simple of all. As everyone is contributing, you reward those who are getting it right more often than getting it wrong. Cerrato, for example, is rumored to have received GREAT credit for wanting Clinton Portis in the worst way, only to have it not be met with as much enthusiasm by others. If Campbell gave Arch and Lloyd failing grades, only to find others fully disagree, he'll be rewarded for consistently hitting it right and those who get it wrong may likely have themselves removed from the process in some way.

Well, thats all the fans are saying about Snyder. You're giving him credit for this system he's set up, but the thing is that we as fans know nothing about this system. We don't know who is responsible. We say blame Vinny for the moves and we're given an excuse. We ask who to blame and we hear various coaches and personnel people. Maybe Vinny's batting 1.000 right now and thats why he got the promotion. But we don't know anything about these inside votes.

But what we do know about is the marginal success of this franchise. You can talk about us having "more good moves than bad moves", but when the franchise has a below .500 record under Snyder and only 3 playoff appearances in the last 10 years, we're forced to question if the system in place is working.

Now, you can say what you want about Snyder being or not being involved in the personnel decisions, but Snyder is the one responsible for this system being in place and the one responsible for keeping it in place. So if many fans feel like me in disliking the system, then they probably fault Snyder for having such a system set up.

I'll even concede that other teams may run a similar system, but just like every team that runs a 4-3 defense isn't a good defense, every team that runs this system isn't a good team. So Pioli or Kraft may have similar systems with their teams, but they're getting results. Again in coah-speak, they've got the personnel for their system. Since our team isn't winning a lot of games, we're forced to eitehr question if its our personnel (ala Vinny and our scouts) or if its the system (ala Vinny being overruled too often)? Both these come back to Snyder.

[Thinking Skins]

Considering that he probably was going to go to the Giants at around that price (In the same deal that sent Shockey to the Saints) if he didn't go to us, it is hard to say that it was too high.

BTW, we traded just a 4th round pick for Kendall, not a 4th and a 5th.

This is my first time hearing about this rumor. But the Shockey deal had been in talks for weeks before it actually materialized. Just like right now the Giants are playing hardball with Edwards. If they get him, I'm sure the price will have come down since when the talks were first going on.

Vinny (supposedly) wasn't interested in Taylor until the first day of trainign camp when 2 DL go down. It sounds like a move of desperation and a move where we overpaid for him.

[McD5]

Art, who is respsonsible for determining if Stan Hixon gets fired?

And why is Stan Hixon on the coaching staff? Seriously.

[Art]

Well, thats all the fans are saying about Snyder. You're giving him credit for this system he's set up, but the thing is that we as fans know nothing about this system. We don't know who is responsible. We say blame Vinny for the moves and we're given an excuse. We ask who to blame and we hear various coaches and personnel people. Maybe Vinny's batting 1.000 right now and thats why he got the promotion. But we don't know anything about these inside votes.

Technically, I'm giving credit to Gibbs for the system as Gibbs essentially stamped it and put it in, though, I don't know that I entirely love the system. I understand it, but, I'm more a fan Idi Amin than George Washington when it comes to football organization. Anyway, you keep saying we, as fans, know nothing about the system. Again, false. You're ignoring what you know about the system, preferring to listen to rumors about the system. We've had direct conversations about the system on this board. I've even offered to beg for another chat if you need. No fans of any team know exactly what anyone is contributing. Even teams with a single figurehead do not know what pieces he came up with verus what someone else may have. That's a demand beyond all reason. You do know how we function. You really do after our conversation today. ONCE AGAIN you keep focusing on who to blame for something without ever spending as much time with who to thank. We've had much to be thankful for in our acquisitions. And, in the end, Vinny nor Snyder nor Gibbs nor Zorn get the credit. Our system is set up so we rise and fall together. This is not that hard. All of us get credit. All of us get blame. That's the team's way. Blache failed, despite putting together a competent defense, because the team did. We accentuate the togetherness aspect as much as anyone else in the league. I'm not sure it's the model for all teams and we may adjust over time, but quit saying you don't know anything. You do. You're just not listening.

But what we do know about is the marginal success of this franchise. You can talk about us having "more good moves than bad moves", but when the franchise has a below .500 record under Snyder and only 3 playoff appearances in the last 10 years, we're forced to question if the system in place is working.

Indeed, our franchise has had marginal success. That's why the people running the show, the coach, has a win-loss record. You don't need to look any further than that. Gibbs was provided a Top 5 defense and couldn't win consistently. He was given a back capable of 1500 yards. A receiver capable of 1500 yards. A Pro Bowl tight end. An ELITE left tackle, with solid lineman otherwise. Now, by he being given, we do mean he was a part of the process and that's what he had. Why is it so hard to blame the failure of the men who actually are responsible? Can you simply not say Gibbs didn't succeed? Why? I love him to, but, as he said, if you're looking to blame anyone for the last four years with him, you blame him. Last year we were 8-8. You think Snyder was responsible for 6-2 and 2-6? Seriously, were you jumping up and down about Snyder being good at 6-2 and then bad at 2-6 as if he had anything to do with either? We credited Zorn and Campbell and the defense when we were 6-2. We know to blame Zorn and Campbell AND the defense at 2-6. It's not that hard. Why do you need it to be?

Now, you can say what you want about Snyder being or not being involved in the personnel decisions, but Snyder is the one responsible for this system being in place and the one responsible for keeping it in place. So if many fans feel like me in disliking the system, then they probably fault Snyder for having such a system set up.

No, I can not say what I want about Snyder being involved or not being involved in personnel decisions. I can only say which he is, or is not. I can't keep letting it seem like it could be either. YOU apparently need it to be open-ended because I believe you know if it isn't the way you think it is, then you really have no reason to be that upset with Snyder. Which, of course, is the point. You don't. As you've repeatedly and openly admitted you don't understand the system, now that I've told you what it is, evaluate it. Do you think it is a poor system Gibbs set up and Snyder maintained? If so, that is ENTIRELY fair. I suspect, though, you're ultimately ok with the actual system, just not the one you keep leaving open as the one.

I'll even concede that other teams may run a similar system, but just like every team that runs a 4-3 defense isn't a good defense, every team that runs this system isn't a good team. So Pioli or Kraft may have similar systems with their teams, but they're getting results. Again in coah-speak, they've got the personnel for their system. Since our team isn't winning a lot of games, we're forced to eitehr question if its our personnel (ala Vinny and our scouts) or if its the system (ala Vinny being overruled too often)? Both these come back to Snyder.

Pioli and Kraft had no similar system. Belichick runs that operation. Kraft sets a budget and all moves of all sort are outside his control unless Belichick goes to him telling him he needs more money and gets permission for that. Pioli functions almost exactly as Vinny does, save Vinny isn't entirely subjugated to a honcho and is more an equal partner with others.

But, again, they are getting results because they avoided being terminated when one small sixth-round pick found time on the field in an unexpected, unplanned fashion. More power to them, but, please, let's not reinvent what we know was happening there. After Belichick lost 10 or more games for the fifth time in his six years as coach, he started off losing again, and was rumored to be on the hot seat and likely fired after another poor season. Bledsoe has internal injuries and he's great. It happens. Could happen to Zorn.

[Art]

Art, who is respsonsible for determining if Stan Hixon gets fired?

And why is Stan Hixon on the coaching staff? Seriously.

Zorn has control over his staff now. He just didn't set it up, save a couple he brought in. He now has control. As for Hixon, I presume he's employed because Zorn is comfortable with the job he did or is doing OR that Zorn has yet to be pressured in his on job, and thus needs make no scapegoat of another to deflect and save.

[TheLongshot]

It is the responsibility of the personnel department to provide players the coaches can use, not to decide for themselves what kind of players the team needs.

It is not mismanagement by the coaches when they don't change their scheme to adapt to misfit players. There was a disconnect someplace when Jason Taylor was brought here. Without knowing all the facts, we can't blame Blache. The trade happened very quickly after the injuries to Daniels and Buzbee. Was Greg consulted beforehand? If not, he should have been.

Which leads me back to the question you chose not to answer: What makes you think he wasn't? Considering that during the offseason the FO and the coaching staff talk about a lot of players and put grades on those players, you don't think Vinny has a good idea what Blache wants?

Considering that Blache played Taylor a lot, it sure didn't seem like he was hateing the move.

This is my first time hearing about this rumor. But the Shockey deal had been in talks for weeks before it actually materialized. Just like right now the Giants are playing hardball with Edwards. If they get him, I'm sure the price will have come down since when the talks were first going on.

http://www.giantsfootballblog.com/category/jason-taylor/

Peter King of SI.com heard a rumor that entailed a three-way deal that was in the works last week involving the Saints, Giants and Dolphins. The deal would have supposedly sent then-Dolphins defensive end Jason Taylor to the Giants, tight end Jeremy Shockey to the Saints and second and fifth-round picks going from New Orleans to Miami.

I thought it was also interesting that soon after the Taylor trade happened, the Shockey trade happened. Considering that Osi went down for the season, it would have made sense to go after Taylor at that point.

Vinny (supposedly) wasn't interested in Taylor until the first day of trainign camp when 2 DL go down. It sounds like a move of desperation and a move where we overpaid for him.

It was less than the 2nd and 5th round picks that the Dolphins were asking for him for most of the offseason, and I doubt he would have gone for much less than that. Good DEs are hard to come by and Taylor was one of the best.

[The Sisko]

Vinny is a piece of the system given a raise and promotion by Gibbs. Cerrato worked for Gibbs, remember. Gibbs was his direct boss. Should we call Gibbs and ask him how he was so wrong on how good a job Vinny did for him? That jerk.

I've said this before but Cerrato was nothing more than a useful fool for Gibbs. Coach Gibbs knows people as well, if not better than anything he knows. If we can see the manlove between Snyder and Cerrato, certainly Gibbs saw it a mile away. Therefore, it was advantageous to keep Cerrato around as a nice bone for Snyder. For all we know, it was part of the negotiations from the beginning. "Look Coach, you've named your price, you've got full control, but I just want one thing. I want Vinny to stick around." What reason would Gibbs have to tell him no? He had full control, all he had to do was pretend to read Vinny's reports and do whatever he wanted anyway.

From Gibbs' standpoint, Cerrato was a nice fall guy to take heat when Gibbs' personnel decisions didn't work out. Make no mistake about it though. The personnel failures and successes of Gibbs 2.0 lie squarely at the feet of Gibbs, Williams and to a lesser degree Saunders. You really think Vinny told Gibbs to go get Brunell? :no:

What you should do, first, is laugh.

Though I do believe we liked Sanchez, I know we liked Orakpo as well. No one will tell me who our No. 1 player was, but, I've had some people hint that Orakpo was rated ahead of Sanchez. He'd NEVER have fallen if someone didn't move up ahead of us to take Sanchez. If Snyder was smart enough to call, Cleveland, for example, and tell Mangini he lusted for the Sanchez, knowing the Jets did as well, and knowing those relationships, might have helped assure someone like the Jets moved up.

I realize most here feel that's too complex for Snyder, but, assume if Orakpo was a player they really liked, like Sanchez, and they wanted him to fall or even to move up slightly to take him, we needed Sanchez to be gone. I do believe there's gamesmanship in the league.

Good advice about laughing first, but it also applies equally well to your reasoning on this. What you say above implies that Snyder could have somehow known that Buffalo, among others, wouldn't have taken Orakpo. After all, they clearly wanted a speed rushing end. As has been the case far too often, their stupidity saved us because by all rights they should have taken Orakpo over Maybin.

The final nail in the coffin of your reasoning above is that Cerrato himself said that we spent the whole first part of the draft trying to move up to get Orakpo. If what you say is true, there would have been no need for that as Snyder had the first 12 picks mapped out with certainty by virtue of his diabolical "bate the Jest to move up for Sanchez" plan. Yeah, sure he did.:doh:

[TheLongshot]

Good advice about laughing first, but it also applies equally well to your reasoning on this. What you say above implies that Snyder could have somehow known that Buffalo, among others, wouldn't have taken Orakpo. After all, they clearly wanted a speed rushing end. As has been the case far too often, their stupidity saved us because by all rights they should have taken Orakpo over Maybin.

The final nail in the coffin of your reasoning above is that Cerrato himself said that we spent the whole first part of the draft trying to move up to get Orakpo. If what you say is true, there would have been no need for that as Snyder had the first 12 picks mapped out with certainty by virtue of his diabolical "bate the Jest to move up for Sanchez" plan. Yeah, sure he did.:doh:

You think Orakpo was the only player we were interested in having drop to us?

Art focused on Orakpo, but it was clear from looking at most of the mocks that most of the players we were interested in had a good chance of being gone by the time we picked. It was clear we needed to shake up the draft order and we needed a team who was likely to pick one of the players we wanted to be gone and replaced by someone who wanted Sanchez.

[Art]

I think we were trying to sneak up for Orakpo. We didn't assure he'd fall to us. We simply had no chance for him to fall to us if Sanchez wasn't gone early. You're correct Buffalo could have take him. Absolutely right. A number of teams could have. It did, absolutely, work out for us and I believe when we were trying to move up to get him, we were worried it wouldn't. I do not know our draft board, unfortunately, but I suspect there were probably a few people we wanted to fall, with Orakpo being one. Crabtree was another perhaps.

The bottom line is, Orakpo was more what we were aiming for than Sanchez. Not a SINGLE person in the world heard about that. Why? Because someone outside the organization was leaking us as interested in Sanchez. For all I know all the teams up top were saying that to get someone who loved him to move up there and we had zero to do with it.

The point of what I wrote is to fully understand the media, which had no problem reporting that we loved Sanchez and wanted to move up to get him, has still, to this moment, not actually recognized that Orakpo was higher on our board. How can that be? They seem to know a ton about moves we ARE NOT making. How come they know nothing about Cutler and Chicago until it's announced? How come they know nothing about us calling up for Orakpo, until we announce it later?

Does it never occur to you that sometimes they get fed something for reasons that have everything to do with someone hoping to get something out of the deal, LIKE another team making a move because they are worried we will. Presume Snyder's not smart enough to get someone to do anything. Someone in the league might be, right? Using an aggressive, high paying, hard charging team like ours as a lever to make it seem like they have something cooking?

[Thinking Skins]

Art, I keep saying I don't know the structure of the front office because despite of what you're saying and what may be said in interviews, I have also read reports indicating otherwise. I'm not an insider in any of these meetings and so I'm forced to give some bias to both sides and say that maybe neither one is completely true. Its not like ESPN/WashPost/WashTimes/PFT/other media outlets have never been wrong. And its not like Danny/Vinny/Zorn are always upfront and honest with us.

So until I'm a part of these meetings, I'll say that I don't know anything about the system. What I've heard is speculation from different sources, each of which has their own weight. Even this conversation with you I'm giving some weight (more than I'd give to most people on ES), but its not like I can count on you as being THE ULTIMATE SOURCE on this info. Basically what you're doing is relaying information to me that you were told or discovered and while I trust that you've done your research, I've also got to trust that there's a possibility that they lied to you too.

[bih]

Wow can you believe that Al Davis bought the Raiders for $150,000 in the '60's?? Even the Lions apparently carried a price tag of $5 million at the time.

and the giants where bought for $500 back in 1925, hahaa

[Art]

Art, I keep saying I don't know the structure of the front office because despite of what you're saying and what may be said in interviews, I have also read reports indicating otherwise. I'm not an insider in any of these meetings and so I'm forced to give some bias to both sides and say that maybe neither one is completely true. Its not like ESPN/WashPost/WashTimes/PFT/other media outlets have never been wrong. And its not like Danny/Vinny/Zorn are always upfront and honest with us.

So until I'm a part of these meetings, I'll say that I don't know anything about the system. What I've heard is speculation from different sources, each of which has their own weight. Even this conversation with you I'm giving some weight (more than I'd give to most people on ES), but its not like I can count on you as being THE ULTIMATE SOURCE on this info. Basically what you're doing is relaying information to me that you were told or discovered and while I trust that you've done your research, I've also got to trust that there's a possibility that they lied to you too.

And, again, you've never seen a counter report to what I'm saying since, essentially, 2000, with the Wuerffel event thrown in. Not a single media report has contradicted how the Redskins operate. Certainly not with actual sources. While certainly possible the team has systematically lied in every published interview on the topic, as well as to me over the years, it's far more likely to presume members of the media, most of whom have no contacts in the organization, including the majority of those actually on the beat, might not know much.

Though, I thank you for something you may take as snide. Essentially what you've admitted here is so long as you allow for some fictional involvement on Snyder's part you can maintain your dislike of him, but, if you actually were to allow yourself to accept what we are doing, you couldn't. Clearly part of your reluctance to believe the truth is you realize it tears down much of your irritation toward Snyder, which, I imagine the vast majority who don't like him are finding themselves dealing with.

[Oldfan]

The Longshot -- Which leads me back to the question you chose not to answer: What makes you think he wasn't [consulted]?

You are repeating a senseless question since I said "Without knowing all the facts, we can't blame Blache." I'm quite obviously not assuming facts in making that statement.

[SkinsFTW]

This ranking the owners BS is completely pointless.

So, the top 5 are the teams who have recently been in the SB and the worst are teams who haven't?

Wow. Now that's ****ing brilliant!

[SprintBomb]

hit the nail on the head