Nice Move, Vinny

[Thinking Skins]

If stupid remarks are all you have to offer, I certainly hope you will ignore my threads. I write them for posters who can offer intelligent debate when they disagree.

haha, nice response.

[zoony]

If stupid remarks are all you have to offer, I certainly hope you will ignore my threads. I write them for posters who can offer intelligent debate when they disagree.

Even though I rarely if ever agree with you, I always appreciate your threads. ES is a better place when you're posting.

Except for those times when you're acting like an ******* j/k

[Skinsinparadise]

For the point about continuity and the West Coast. I do agree with Oldfan that Vinny likely made that committment, He was looking at Fassel, Mooch -- who were West Coast guys but keep in mind he hired Zorn first as the OC. Zorn was in place at that position as the WC guy regardless of the head coach.

And I do think IMO Zorn is over his head as a coach and not sharp enough as a play caller or good enough leader to be the long term solution here. And it will be telling if Zorn is fired who he's replaced with, my guess is they'd find a more competent West Coast play caller like a Mike Shannahan as opposed to starting all over with a new offense.

[zoony]

And I do think IMO Zorn is over his head as a coach

You're not the only one. And I'm not talking about the fans either. I'm talking about a lot of folks observing the situation who carry considerable clout in football worlds. Leave it at that.

I hope he grows a lot from 2008-2009. All Redskins fans should

....

[Oldfan]

My best guess (and really we're all just guessing here) is that Vinny chose to go with a WCO because that's what his background was, from his days in SF. He felt more comfortable picking talent to suit a WCO, because that's where he cut his teeth in the league. The fact that our o-line broke down is more of a coincidence than anything.

You theory would carry more weight if the Coryell and its seven-step drops was not falling out of favor league-wide because of pressure defenses. Even OCs from the Coryell tree (Cameron and Shotty Jr., for example) are using more quick, short tosses like the WCO.

[Oldfan]

Even though I rarely if ever agree with you, I always appreciate your threads. ES is a better place when you're posting.

Thank you.

Except for those times when you're acting like an ******* j/k

Who me? :cool:

[Skinsinparadise]

You're not the only one. And I'm not talking about the fans either. I'm talking about a lot of folks observing the situation who carry considerable clout in football worlds. Leave it at that.

Yeah I know am not alone in being worried about Zorn. I agree with a lot of Oldfan's points including about the West Coast offense. I tend to disagree with him in his numerous pro Zorn threads but really just about one angle and that is -- is Zorn the right guy to make the Skins into a Bill Walsh type West Coast offensive juggernaut. Bill Walsh just struck me a lot smarter than Zorn, ditto Holmgren, etc. And yeah its just a guess based on watching and listening to Zorn.

[DieselPwr44]

That's exactly what Bill Walsh intended when his starting QB went down with a career-ending injury and he was left with Virgil Carter and a mediocre O line in Cincinnati.

While this is true, it's still no excuse for not trying to build a dominant Oline.

Or in the Redskins case,ignoring it draft wise.

And for those(The Longshot) that want to bring up such draft gems as Wilson and Molinaro, let's be serious for a minute. Taking a shot in the dark in the low rounds of the draft does not constitute Oline building.

You take a flyer on guys like that and hope you get lucky.

[#21Taylor4Ever]

One of the most accurate QBs in the league?

He throws 5 yard curl routes over the WR's head and has always had trouble putting the ball where the WR going. This results in Santana Moss having to jump and stretch all the way out just to catch a curl. It's also had an effect on our big plays.

I think Campbell is a good quarterback but saying he is "one of the most accurate" is truly pulling a comment out of your ass.

He had a nearly 63% completion rate.

I think it's so comical how fans, such as yourself, take ONE game and use that in your entire argument. Campbell did not show a pattern of missing receivers, as a matter of fact, we were one of the worst teams in dropped passes.

And I didn't pull that comment out of my ass, I actually got it from NFL.com, ESPN.com, and Yahoo.com. :laugh:

[Metskins]

If stupid remarks are all you have to offer, I certainly hope you will ignore my threads. I write them for posters who can offer intelligent debate when they disagree.

That's like George Bush saying that he writes speeches for Rhodes Scholars.

[IbleedBnG83]

Fassel is a WCO coach. Someone had to be thinking WCO before Fassel brought Zorn's name up.

Vinny's experience with the Niners was in their WCO years, so he understands the advantages. It seems more likely that it was his idea and not Snyder's.

Fassel has been campaigning to be a HC to whatever team will take him. The fact that Vinny is the only one to actually consider Fassel before the fans were in an uproar speaks volume of Vinny's football IQ. Afterall, even Al Davis turned down Fassel.

I'm staying "medium" after this years meltdown, but I don't think Vinny should be complimented on what seems to be an accident more than anything else.

But seriously, it sounds like you are giving Vinny WAY too much credit for that round about way of recognizing the OL as an issue and wanting to go a WCO because of that. If he was so smart, he would have addressed the OL sooner than later.

[SkinsFTW]

Wow, somehow the 2008 draft picks are going to magically become Pro Bowlers and we will see the Redskins turn it around next year?

I only wish there was any evidence of this in the last 4-5 weeks of this season.

Anybody can dream though.

IMO next season has 2003 Redskins written all over it except we haven't found a way to get rid of our best offensive player.

[fansince62]

I thought Vinny's trade for Jason Taylor was a dumb move for our team and I said so when it went down. But, I have to give him credit for a very smart move that will pay off in the years ahead.

It's very smart football strategy to find ways to emphasize a strength and deemphasize a weakness.

When Joe Gibbs returned to this Redskins, the strongest unit on his team was the O line. When he left, it was the weakest.

The degradation of the O line isn't something that can be fixed quickly. Even if it's possible to add a stud OT in this offseason, there's much more to be done.

The O line's weak pass protection caused Joe to go to max protection schemes and to keep the RB in to protect the QB rather than using him as an outlet. Sending only two or three eligible receivers out into the pattern made the defenses' job easy.

Bringing in Jim Zorn to speed up the QB's drops and release and install the WCO scheme, with fewer seven-step drops than the Gibbs plan, was a smart move by Vinny. It deemphasized the weakness of the O line in pass protection.

In 2008, we didn't see much gain from the move because the passing game didn't operate as it should consistently. It should be much better in 2009.

yeppers! that was the plan all along when it came to bringing in Zorn.....they knew from day 1 - there's some chicken-scratch notes of Vinny's that read "bring in a QB coach with no coordinator experience and make him the HC cuz 3-4 step drops are the linchpin to overall success in the NFL."

that mean, bad Joe Gibbs! if only Dan had turned to one of the other winners he is so skilled at finding.

dang....and here I was thinking that improving the O-line and making it younger as a long-term commitment was preferable to taking a few less steps? who knew?!!!! playing into the defense's hands is much better than dictating!

[Gregpeck99]

Campbell is not suited for the WCO. Bring in Favre I say ... until Colt is ready.

[zoony]

yeppers! that was the plan all along when it came to bringing in Zorn.....they knew from day 1 - there's some chicken-scratch notes of Vinny's that read "bring in a QB coach with no coordinator experience and make him the HC cuz 3-4 step drops are the linchpin to overall success in the NFL."

You forgot proper QB mechanics, lol. Don't forget that

[DexterSackMachine]

The title of this thread is obviously an attempt to tick off 99.9% of the readers on this message board who believe Vinny Cerrato is the AntiChrist.

[cphil006]

cool... So what you are saying is we should be better next season.

[Chief skin]

IF Vinny has proved 1 thing it is he could FU** UP PICKING HIS NOSE

[zCommander]

He had a nearly 63% completion rate.

And I didn't pull that comment out of my ass, I actually got it from NFL.com, ESPN.com, and Yahoo.com. :laugh:

No you did make an ass of yourself by saying he is the most accurate QB in the league. But the fact is he is number 14 out of 32 QB.

1 Chad Pennington 67.4

2 Kurt Warner 67.1

3 Peyton Manning 66.8

4 Matt Schaub 66.1

5 Brett Favre 65.7

6 Trent Edwards 65.5

7 Philip Rivers 65.3

8 Drew Brees 65

9 Jeff Garcia 64.9

10 Aaron Rodgers 63.6

11 Matt Cassel 63.4

12 Shaun Hill 62.8

13 David Garrard 62.6

14 Jason Campbell 62.3

14 Jay Cutler 62.3

16 Tony Romo sits to pee 61.3

Even Shaun Hill was better then JC. :doh:

He had a nearly 63% completion rate.

By the way in math you only round up if it is 5 or better and round down if it is below 5.

[Thinking Skins]

Campbell is not suited for the WCO. Bring in Favre I say ... until Colt is ready.

Do you have any evidence for that, cause what I saw this season disagrees with that...particularly the first 8 games.

[HailGreen28]

So, do you and zoony agree that we should have stayed with Norv?

Maybe Joe should have stayed with the scheme he started with in 1981? After going 0-5, the idiot changed it.

I don't think Norv was the problem. I think Snyder conducting player meetings himself and have a direct line to the Redskins bench and calling during the season for Jeff George to continue starting even if Johnson got over his injury was the problem.

Offense wasn't the problem in Gibbs I first season. The Skins defense (which he wasn't running) was the weak link that first half of the season.

The point others made is, we change systems every year or two. How can we develop players to run a good system when we keep changing it? The idea that we change our system this time to fix an aging O-line is dumb.

[darrelgreenie]

Bringing in Jim Zorn to speed up the QB's drops and release and install the WCO scheme, with fewer seven-step drops than the Gibbs plan, was a smart move by Vinny. It deemphasized the weakness of the O line in pass protection.

In 2008, we didn't see much gain from the move because the passing game didn't operate as it should consistently. It should be much better in 2009.

Good post.

I wonder if Vinnie even knew that Zorn would be running such quick drop, short passing version of the WCO. I kinda think Vinnie was along for the ride as opposed to being part of the plan.

I also think that the short passing game i.e. 3 step drop based attack was not and is not Zorn's long term plan, but rather a reasonable adjustment to our offensive line's ability or lack there of when it comes to pass protection.

I thought the passing game pretty much worked as designed. We didn't throw the ball downfield often, but hit on a good percentage of the short throws. The passing game needed to make more plays JC included but specifically the WRs they needed to make more clutch catches and get more yard after the catch. Also, the redzone production must improve from both an execution standpoint and from a gameplanning standpoint. Zorn needs to become more aggressive IMO.

I'm with 100% when it comes to next year though, i believe the passing game will be more productive. This year layed the ground work for Zorn, JC and the receivers to develop the passing game into a more consistent and hopefully explosive passing game.

[TheLongshot]

You can check my linked thread of December 2007. As I recall, you were one of the few posters who didn't agree with me that the O line would be a weakness in 2008. I think Dan and Vinny were aware of the weakness. I saw it as obvious.

You are right, I didn't agree with you at the time, and while it is a strong need, I don't think it is as nearly as bad of shape as you have been suggesting. While we can no longer say it is a great line, it doesn't suck either.

If Vinny was well aware it was a weakness, then why only one OL in last year's draft? Wouldn't you be a bit more focused on trying to get linemen if you felt it was a weakness?

Sorry, I don't buy your argument that Vinny picked the WCO because he thought the line was a weakness. I still think that it was picked because that's what Vinny knows from his days in SF.

[Oldfan]

-- is Zorn the right guy to make the Skins into a Bill Walsh type West Coast offensive juggernaut. Bill Walsh just struck me a lot smarter than Zorn, ditto Holmgren, etc. And yeah its just a guess based on watching and listening to Zorn.

Walsh's scheme was innovative. He had the advantage of a lag time before defenses caught up. On the other hand, the NFL rules aimed at parity have been successful, Zorn won't need the kind of talent Walsh needed to win. A small edge goes a long way in today's game.

[Oldfan]

Offense wasn't the problem in Gibbs I first season. The Skins defense (which he wasn't running) was the weak link that first half of the season.

Joe had Riggins blocking for Washington in a two-back set . When they went 0-5, he switched to the one-back with Washington as the third-down back.

The point others made is, we change systems every year or two. How can we develop players to run a good system when we keep changing it?

I don't think we should have stayed with a system that couldn't produce a consistent passing game for four years. That just makes no sense.

The idea that we change our system this time to fix an aging O-line is dumb.

The idea is to minimize a weakness. Coaches do it all the time, just as they try to maximize strengths. Why is that concept hard to comprehend?

The concept goes back to the origin of the WCO -- to get more production from mediocre talent. That's the reason the shotgun spread has been so popular at the college level. Small schools can beat the perennial powerhouses with bigger, stronger players.