Oldfan Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I thought Vinny's trade for Jason Taylor was a dumb move for our team and I said so when it went down. But, I have to give him credit for a very smart move that will pay off in the years ahead. It's very smart football strategy to find ways to emphasize a strength and deemphasize a weakness. When Joe Gibbs returned to this Redskins, the strongest unit on his team was the O line. When he left, it was the weakest. The degradation of the O line isn't something that can be fixed quickly. Even if it's possible to add a stud OT in this offseason, there's much more to be done. The O line's weak pass protection caused Joe to go to max protection schemes and to keep the RB in to protect the QB rather than using him as an outlet. Sending only two or three eligible receivers out into the pattern made the defenses' job easy. Bringing in Jim Zorn to speed up the QB's drops and release and install the WCO scheme, with fewer seven-step drops than the Gibbs plan, was a smart move by Vinny. It deemphasized the weakness of the O line in pass protection. In 2008, we didn't see much gain from the move because the passing game didn't operate as it should consistently. It should be much better in 2009. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrfriedm Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I would help if we had a QB who could make those quick throws with accuracy and touch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyKilmer Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 What people have not grasped yet is that a O-line that serves Gibbs well may not be the same type that a West Coast one does. It will take time to re-tool and re-train something few people on this site want to hear. If we dont win now... Fire Zorn Fire Vinny If we don't tear it all down and rebuild ... Fire Zorn Fire vinny If we don't emphasize the Draft ... fire Zorn Fire Vinny If we don't sign big name free agents ... yada yada As the readership had increased here at extremeskins the IQ has lowered. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DexterSackMachine Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I would help if we had a QB who could make those quick throws with accuracy and touch. Agreed Whether you think JC is the future or not, it's hard to deny that he is too slow with his decisions and throws. And he loves the double clutch... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Joe Gibbs OL was a strength you say, then in the next sentence you allude to the fact that Joe had to rely upon 'max protection' due to the unreliability of his OL (his greatest strength?). That is a major contradiction, unless Joe's OL was already showing decline. Regardless, bad move Vinny, for not addressing an aging, enfeebled, perpetually injured unit with some high round youthful OL to be groomed as their successors, even when the rest of the free world foresaw this as a looming weakness for years now. Newflash: This OL still couldn't protect their QB despite the installation of a short drop WCO, and thus Zorn's playbook was cut in half as he had to also resort to his own version of max protect, and 2 WR patterns. In the end, nothing was accomplished. When your OL begins to age into ineffectiveness, you prioritize replacing and repleneshing them... you don't install an entire new scheme and staff just to milk an extra year or two out of an over the hill offensive line. This offense will get better to the degree that it acquires impact OL help, otherwise 2009 production will be even worse (which is exactly what we saw as 2008 progressed, the offense regressed). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Man, Vinny's nicest move was in effect firing himself and promoting Scott Campbell over Player Personnel. Now, I'm attributing any success of the Redskins in drafting or free agency moves towards Scott Campbell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IbleedBnG83 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Bringing in Zorn was an accident. He was brought in by Fassel and was made HC by default. Was it not also a decision by both Snyder and Vinny? I think you are giving too much credit to Vinny, he is not smart enough to think that far ahead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fight for ole DC Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I hope you are right about the passing game in 2009. Watching Warner beat the philly blitz with quick throws knowing exactly where the opening would be should be a blue print for JC and the passing offense. I'm still not convinced JC is the guy to read defenses pre-snap. Perhaps another year working with Zorn will allow him to be a more proactive decision maker. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
#21Taylor4Ever Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I would help if we had a QB who could make those quick throws with accuracy and touch. It would also help if we had fans who didn't pull bs comments like this out of their asses. Campbell is one of the most accurate QBs in the league. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Whether you think JC is the future or not, it's hard to deny that he is too slow with his decisions and throws. And he loves the double clutch... I graded Campbell's performance at a C this year. I expect him to improve to a B next season. I doubt if he has grade A potential. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskeypeet Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It should be much better in 2009. I think you men it could be. A lot of other variables to consider as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyKilmer Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Man, Vinny's nicest move was in effect firing himself and promoting Scott Campbell over Player Personnel. Now, I'm attributing any success of the Redskins in drafting or free agency moves towards Scott Campbell. You are nothing if not consistent thread after thread. Just make your sig say you hate Vinny and then you don't have to post it in every thread Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
zoony Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Does anyone read Oldfan's posts on Vinny and Zorn and become immediately reminded of that guy/girl you know who constantly assigns human characteristics to their dog? "oh you should have seen it, my dog is so smart... the other day he :blahblah:" And you're thinking "no, the dog just wants to hump your leg and eat a bowl of dog food. All the rest is in your mind". Vinny (and most of us) didn't see the Oline as a weakness going into 2008. We saw our starters as solid, and our woes stemming from injury in the 2007 season. We get it though, you like the Jim Zorn move. Me personally, I'm disliking it more and more. He was brought in with no experience at all in running an offense, or even playcalling. Not only that, the reasons you think are great (WCO) I think are terrible. Maybe its just me, but I'm sick of seeing a different philosophy every 2 years. First it was Norv and his power running game. Then came Marty ball. Then the fun & gun. Then Joe. Now we've got the WCO. It's laughable at this point. No wonder we suck every year. God forbid we solidify our scheme. Predicion: When Jim Zorn's time is done, we'll bring in a coach with a new offensive & defensive philosophy. We will rebuild again. :doh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Bringing in Zorn was an accident. He was brought in by Fassel and was made HC by default. Was it not also a decision by both Snyder and Vinny? I think you are giving too much credit to Vinny, he is not smart enough to think that far ahead. Fassel is a WCO coach. Someone had to be thinking WCO before Fassel brought Zorn's name up. Vinny's experience with the Niners was in their WCO years, so he understands the advantages. It seems more likely that it was his idea and not Snyder's. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillyKilmer Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Me personally, I'm disliking it more and more. He was brought in with no experience at all in running an offense, or even playcalling. Not only that, the reasons you think are great (WCO) I think are terrible. Maybe its just me, but I'm sick of seeing a different philosophy every 2 years. First it was Norv and his power running game. Then came Marty ball. Then the fun & gun. Then Joe. Now we've got the WCO. It's laughable at this point. No wonder we suck every year. God forbid we solidify our scheme. Predicion: When Jim Zorn's time is done, we'll bring in a coach with a new offensive & defensive philosophy. We will rebuild again. :doh: So you say what fire Zorn now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whiskeypeet Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Clearly Zoony is happy with the direction of the team. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 I think you men it could be. A lot of other variables to consider as well. No, I meant what I said. The main factors will be -- = a second year of experience in the scheme for everyone = more contributions from the three rookie receivers who fit the scheme. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thinking Skins Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 You are nothing if not consistent thread after thread. Just make your sig say you hate Vinny and then you don't have to post it in every thread Actually it was my sig for a while back in 2006... But as of late I've been more inspired by the front office - first be not signing a bunch of over-priced players in 2007, then by actually making some smart moves in 2008. I don't post this comment in "thread after thread"...only when the discussion calls for it...like when somebody says that Vinny made a nice move...or when somebody says that "Snyder picked Fassel's brain to hire Zorn". I just have fun with comments like these...I don't hate Vinny at all, and like I said, as of recently I've been encouraged by some of the structure set up by the front office, particularly Scott Campbell. But I realize that a large part of the board hates Vinny, and thats what makes some of these comments so funny to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stormy Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 No, I meant what I said. The main factors will be --= a second year of experience in the scheme for everyone = more contributions from the three rookie receivers who fit the scheme. Really? Then whny didn't we see progress for the offense as the team became more familiar with the scheme, and as the rookie receivers got more involved in the gameplan in 2008? The offense vastly regressed as the season evolved, and it did so against the poor defenses we faced, as well as the elite defenses we faced (so it wasn't purely a schedule issue). That evidence runs counter to your experience argument. If this offense develops in 2009, it's going to need a monumental upgrade in the proficiency and talent level of it's offensive line (and yes, it will also need Zorn to vastly develop as a play caller, and more impact from the young receivers). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HailGreen28 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 I thought Vinny's trade for Jason Taylor was a dumb move for our team and I said so when it went down. But, I have to give him credit for a very smart move that will pay off in the years ahead.It's very smart football strategy to find ways to emphasize a strength and deemphasize a weakness. When Joe Gibbs returned to this Redskins, the strongest unit on his team was the O line. When he left, it was the weakest. The degradation of the O line isn't something that can be fixed quickly. Even if it's possible to add a stud OT in this offseason, there's much more to be done. The O line's weak pass protection caused Joe to go to max protection schemes and to keep the RB in to protect the QB rather than using him as an outlet. Sending only two or three eligible receivers out into the pattern made the defenses' job easy. Bringing in Jim Zorn to speed up the QB's drops and release and install the WCO scheme, with fewer seven-step drops than the Gibbs plan, was a smart move by Vinny. It deemphasized the weakness of the O line in pass protection. In 2008, we didn't see much gain from the move because the passing game didn't operate as it should consistently. It should be much better in 2009. "It deemphasized the weakness of the O line in pass protection."? Dumb, dumb, dumb. The WCO needs good pass pro as much as any offense! Especially with it's tendencies to REQUIRE sending out multiple receivers to confuse and flood a secondary! The O-line back in 2004 was good enough for a good running attack, and Gibbs style passing attack. Gibbs deserves blame for letting it deteriorate. So does Vinny before and after Gibbs BTW. But installing a WCO doesn't make a good O-line less important. Not only do you still need good run blockers to keep from being one-dimensional, you still need good pass blockers with the increased reliance on the pass. A blocker like Jansen, and possibly others on our team, might fit in a Gibbs offense, and get exposed in a WCO. If Vinny really thought the WCO was a fix for an aging line, this is all yet ANOTHER reason he should be fired! :mad: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Oldfan Posted February 1, 2009 Author Share Posted February 1, 2009 Vinny (and most of us) didn't see the Oline as a weakness going into 2008. We saw our starters as solid, and our woes stemming from injury in the 2007 season. You should learn to pay attention to me. I saw the problem coming in December of 2007. Maybe its just me, but I'm sick of seeing a different philosophy every 2 years. I'll say it again. Your arguments will be taken more seriously when you curb your tendency to exaggerate each and every time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xero21 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 It would also help if we had fans who didn't pull bs comments like this out of their asses. Campbell is one of the most accurate QBs in the league. One of the most accurate QBs in the league? He throws 5 yard curl routes over the WR's head and has always had trouble putting the ball where the WR going. This results in Santana Moss having to jump and stretch all the way out just to catch a curl. It's also had an effect on our big plays. I think Campbell is a good quarterback but saying he is "one of the most accurate" is truly pulling a comment out of your ass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheLongshot Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Vinny (and most of us) didn't see the Oline as a weakness going into 2008. We saw our starters as solid, and our woes stemming from injury in the 2007 season. Very true, tho I do think that they did identify that Kendall didn't have much tread on the tires, which is why Rinehart was drafted. I've said it before and I'll say it again: We've brought in the WCO because it is what Vinny is most familiar with. Maybe its just me, but I'm sick of seeing a different philosophy every 2 years. First it was Norv and his power running game. Then came Marty ball. Then the fun & gun. Then Joe. Now we've got the WCO. It's laughable at this point. No wonder we suck every year. God forbid we solidify our scheme. That was going to happen anyways. I mean, how many Coryell students are left in the league? Even then, there would be differences. Even with Gibbs and Saunders there were big differences in philosophies. At least going with the WCO there are plenty of teams that run it that finding another guy to run it won't lead to THAT much of a learning curve. Anyways, I think our late-season woes have more to do with the talent on the field rather than learning the offense. Improving the O-Line and having the young WRs step up will go a long way to improving this offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ntotoro Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Bringing in Jim Zorn to speed up the QB's drops and release and install the WCO scheme, with fewer seven-step drops than the Gibbs plan, was a smart move by Vinny. It deemphasized the weakness of the O line in pass protection Great job so far, too. Campbell looks like a HoF-er. That was sarcasm. Zorn is HC because no one else worth anything more than a ham sandwich wanted the job. That was why Bugeyes "promoted" him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HailGreen28 Posted February 1, 2009 Share Posted February 1, 2009 Maybe its just me, but I'm sick of seeing a different philosophy every 2 years. I'll say it again. Your arguments will be taken more seriously when you curb your tendency to exaggerate each and every time. Sadly he's not exaggerating. One year so far of Zorn. Two years of Saunders/Gibbs. Two years of pure Gibbs. Two years of Spurrier. One year of Schottenheimer. You get the idea? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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