Nice Move, Vinny

[Oldfan]

Good post.

Thank you.

I wonder if Vinnie even knew that Zorn would be running such quick drop, short passing version of the WCO. I kinda think Vinnie was along for the ride as opposed to being part of the plan.

I'm sure he did. Hasselbeck has been quoted about Zorn's methods going back a couple of years.

I also think that the short passing game i.e. 3 step drop based attack was not and is not Zorn's long term plan, but rather a reasonable adjustment to our offensive line's ability or lack there of when it comes to pass protection.

Walsh's WCO has been using mostly 3 and 5 step drops since the 80s.

Also, the redzone production must improve from both an execution standpoint and from a gameplanning standpoint. Zorn needs to become more aggressive IMO.

The WCO requires big receivers who can run like backs to get YAC -- the kind we drafted.

I'm with 100% when it comes to next year though, i believe the passing game will be more productive. This year layed the ground work for Zorn, JC and the receivers to develop the passing game into a more consistent and hopefully explosive passing game.

All the signs point upward. I feel pretty confident that it will be a more potent attack.

[Oldfan]

You are right, I didn't agree with you at the time, and while it is a strong need, I don't think it is as nearly as bad of shape as you have been suggesting. While we can no longer say it is a great line, it doesn't suck either.

It never was a great line, but it was above average for a couple of years. When healthy, it's average these days, but this group is unlikely to stay healthy over 16 games.

If Vinny was well aware it was a weakness, then why only one OL in last year's draft? Wouldn't you be a bit more focused on trying to get linemen if you felt it was a weakness?

I have no idea how they graded linemen in the draft. I wouldn't overreach to take linemen.

Sorry, I don't buy your argument that Vinny picked the WCO because he thought the line was a weakness. I still think that it was picked because that's what Vinny knows from his days in SF.

Louis Riddick talked in this forum about Marty wanting one type of player; Spurrier wanted another; then Gibbs wanted another. It wasn't a problem for him. You find players that fit the coaches scheme. You don't have talent evaluators who are WCO specialists.

Your theory loses more weight when you realize that pressure defenses have forced most teams to look for ways to get the ball out of the QB's hands quicker even if they aren't running the WCO. That's what the shotgun spread that I've been touting does even better than the WCO, but there are other factors to be weighed.

[Oldfan]

While this is true, it's still no excuse for not trying to build a dominant Oline..

I didn't offer this as an excuse for anything. Making it easier for the O line to pass protect is just good sense.

[Oldfan]

Fassel has been campaigning to be a HC to whatever team will take him. The fact that Vinny is the only one to actually consider Fassel before the fans were in an uproar speaks volume of Vinny's football IQ. Afterall, even Al Davis turned down Fassel.

I'm staying "medium" after this years meltdown, but I don't think Vinny should be complimented on what seems to be an accident more than anything else.

But seriously, it sounds like you are giving Vinny WAY too much credit for that round about way of recognizing the OL as an issue and wanting to go a WCO because of that. If he was so smart, he would have addressed the OL sooner than later.

Fassel, Mariucci and Zorn -- didn't you realize that we wanted to go WCO early in the coaching search?

If you ask yourself why, the most reasonable answer is that the WCO puts less strain on the O line in pass pro. That's the primary reason any team goes WCO.

[Oldfan]

yeppers! that was the plan all along when it came to bringing in Zorn.....they knew from day 1 - there's some chicken-scratch notes of Vinny's that read "bring in a QB coach with no coordinator experience and make him the HC cuz 3-4 step drops are the linchpin to overall success in the NFL."

Fassel, Mariucci and Zorn -- all WCO. The explanation we got for the hire of Zorn at the end of the search seemed reasonable to me. But, maybe you think it better to rely on the media to report the facts.

that mean, bad Joe Gibbs! if only Dan had turned to one of the other winners he is so skilled at finding.

Nah. Vinny was the puppet master. Poor old Joe was just taking up space.

dang....and here I was thinking that improving the O-line and making it younger as a long-term commitment was preferable to taking a few less steps? who knew?!!!! playing into the defense's hands is much better than dictating!

This isn't a difficult concept. Using a scheme change to make the O line's job easier is just good sense. It has nothing to do with bringing in more talent. That's completely irrelevant.

[Oldfan]

The title of this thread is obviously an attempt to tick off 99.9% of the readers on this message board who believe Vinny Cerrato is the AntiChrist.

I hadn't thought about that, but now that you mention it -- my title does offer that advantage, doesn't it?

[Oldfan]

Wow, somehow the 2008 draft picks are going to magically become Pro Bowlers and we will see the Redskins turn it around next year?

This is not directed just to you, but these strawman arguments are getting tiresome.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

vinny is a moron, that should be pretty much a fact.

our QB cant get it done on a consistent basis, even against bad teams. this should be close to a fact right now.

our runningback is a monster as long as our line is blocking well. old lineman wear out, thats what happened.

our 08 draft is a mystery but its look not very good at the moment. hopefully thomas fulfills his draft status, as does rhinehart. everyone else should be solid depth.

id like to see kelly be legit, but i worry.

fred davis was a wasted pick.

end rant/

[Oldfan]

You're not the only one[who thinks Z is in over his head]. And I'm not talking about the fans either. I'm talking about a lot of folks observing the situation who carry considerable clout in football worlds. Leave it at that.....

Have any of those with clout ever put together an NFL quality passing game? There are only a handful of coaches who can. If they haven't, I'd suggest you pay no attention because that's the number one problem in today's game and that's what Zorn is trying to do.

[DieselPwr44]

I didn't offer this as an excuse for anything. Making it easier for the O line to pass protect is just good sense.

Well here lately, you kind of come of as saying we really don't need to spend alot of time building an Oline because we run the WCO. :excited:

[Chump Bailey]

In 2008, we didn't see much gain from the move because the passing game didn't operate as it should consistently. It should be much better in 2009.

I can't see how unless we get better upfront OF, and I'm not sure that is going to happen at all anytime soon.

[fansince62]

Fassel, Mariucci and Zorn -- all WCO. The explanation we got for the hire of Zorn at the end of the search seemed reasonable to me. But, maybe you think it better to rely on the media to report the facts.

Nah. Vinny was the puppet master. Poor old Joe was just taking up space.

This isn't a difficult concept. Using a scheme change to make the O line's job easier is just good sense. It has nothing to do with bringing in more talent. That's completely irrelevant.

1) none of these guys runs a pure WCO...which is what you are solely interested in.

2) You have a nasty habit of ignoring evidence that does not support your argument...like the defensive coordinators who were interviewed.

3) Zorn very clearly did not run a pure WCO last season. None of these guys do. It's all mixes with twists that accomodate the reality of talent on hand.

YOU COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT. Changing the drop back scheme concedes that the defense is dictating. Build a better O-line and you widen the aperture even for the Godly WCO that is an irresistable force and certain guarantor of SBs. The emphasis should be on fixing that *rappy line...a line that has been injury riddled for years and cannot pass block. Changing the drop back/timing (which comically emphasizes an area that might not exactly be a core strength for JC: recognition/decision-making speed) is a patch...not a fix.

Skins fans should not take their eyes off the ball. This less than stellar FO has mismanged the roster for years. the proof is there for all to see on the field. the notion that dropping to a 3 step drop is going to rectify more fundamental problems is ludicrous....and should be resisted. GET THE RIGHT PLAYERS. DON'T SELL OFF YOUR FUTURE. DON'T COMMIT TO A HYBRID OFFENSIVE CONCEPT PRECISELY BECAUSE YOU ARE BOXED IN BY PERSONNEL/ROSTER/CAP DECISIONS OVER THE YEARS.

We have a junk food franchise. Why is it the purveyors of eternal hope and excuse making can't see that? It needs a real GM. It has REAL problems weaning itself off a culture that understands the Skins to be a pipe to fat paychecks and early off-seasons to enjoy all that money.

addendum....I'm done laughing now over the idea that bringing in more talent is irrelevant. on second thought...you'd fit in nicely with this FO!!!!!!

[Skinsinparadise]

On the O line drill, the line was regarded by the most as the Skins strength until 2 seasons ago when Randy and Jansen went down. Go back before that, Thomas was considered a stud. He can't be that bad right now considering he was voted as an alternate pro bowler. We acquired Kendall and I recall the NY media thinking that losing him would really damage the Jets O line. He was regarded a good player. Samuels almost always in the pro-bowl. Gibbs would always rave about Rabach. And Jansen was a steady force.

The problems with the Skins IMO is they had more glaring weaknesses back when the O line was still a strength. This team rarely is working from the stand point of strengthening strengths or looking ahead to upgrade an aging position. I'll critque Vinny on that.

The FO always seems fixated on the current season like they are a player or two away from the Superbowl and arguably that more than anything has doomed the long term prospects of the club.

As for the last draft, ex-GM Casserly I think had it down after the draft. I saw him on Washington Post Live soon after, and he basically said that Vinny intended to upgrade the lines but sometimes the luck of the draw is what it is.

When he traded down into the 2nd round, really what O lineman especially at tackle where worth any of those picks? No one picked an O tackle in the 2nd round. Guys like Duane Brown and Adams who were projected by most as 2nd rounders for example were gone in the late first. For those that say Vinny blew it in this draft on the O line. 2 questions:

1. Were you guys opposed to trading down to get an extra 2nd rounder?

2. Which offensive lineman did Vinny pass over with those 2nd round picks that you love?

And again, I am no apologist for Vinny. Heck I don't think he's a good GM but at the same time I don't think he's a bad GM. He's so so, just like the Redskins have been for some time now. It's hard for me to look at ALL his transactions and think he's an idiot or for that matter great.

I do think Vinny legitmately wanted to upgrade the lines in the last draft, but as a draft geek I can see why it unfolded the way it did and had some bad luck in that draft in terms of those positions specifically, really there was no attactive O line propsect IMO available in the 2nd round, especially at tackle. Once they hit the third round they took one.

Vinny has said the lines are the problem now, and yeah I do think the Vinny is an idiot crowd who expect him to ignore the lines again, will likely be pleasantly surpised this off season. The only other position I have heard Vinny talk so far besides the lines is LB.

As for the WCO offense, its conceivable to me going back to my criticism that this franchise tends to act often like they are a player or two away from the Superbowl that they'd have this mindset: what team thwarted the Skins the last 2 times in the playoffs? The Seahawks. So I can see Vinny who I'd gather already is a WCO fan, using Seattle as evidence to convince Danny.

[darrelgreenie]

Thank you.

I'm sure he did. Hasselbeck has been quoted about Zorn's methods going back a couple of years.

Walsh's WCO has been using mostly 3 and 5 step drops since the 80s.

The WCO requires big receivers who can run like backs to get YAC -- the kind we drafted.

All the signs point upward. I feel pretty confident that it will be a more potent attack.

For the most part we agree. I just have a hard time giving Vinnie credit for Zorn's scheme. The WCO is not just 3 and 5 step drops though, an passing game WCO or any other requires a mix of 3-5-7 drop and PA passing.

I think that our reliance primarily on the 3 step drop short passing WCO was a response to the line decline of the offensive line. The offense didn't start off as 3-step drop only passing but eveolved into it as the season progressed. If the offensive had better pass pro then IMO Zorn's passing game would have been more open ala Seattle in the past. (BTW Seattle receivers aren't 'Big')

[Horatio]

Bringing in Jim Zorn to speed up the QB's drops and release and install the WCO scheme, with fewer seven-step drops than the Gibbs plan, was a smart move by Vinny.

Um, Vinny didn't hire Zorn. Snyder did, and only after his first six choices refused to take the job because Snyder had already hired all of the assistant coaches.

Vinny is as dumb as a lump of coal.

[IbleedBnG83]

Fassel, Mariucci and Zorn -- didn't you realize that we wanted to go WCO early in the coaching search?

If you ask yourself why, the most reasonable answer is that the WCO puts less strain on the O line in pass pro. That's the primary reason any team goes WCO.

OK, I'll give you he wanted WCO. Fair enough. However, WCO seems to me just more of a philosophy or style of offense. I don't think its to avoid a weak OL. And if it is, than whoever is thinking that is insane. Everything is won in the trenches. Changing to a WCO because of a weak OL and ignoring the OL as an important element is upsurd, don't you think.

Really, if Vinny is thinking "Hmmm. The OL is getting old. We should switch to a WCO in order to avoid too much pressure as a result of the weak OL. So we need receivers. One who is completely raw, and another is has knee issues, and a pass catching TE who will play behind an already pro bowl TE. But lets get a G from a small school and that should help alleviate things."

Now we are in year two, with the OL still an issue, and what will be probably at least two rookies starting and an offense that still needs to grow, part in due to a weak OL from the year before did not allow them to do many of the things they wanted.

I just think its a reach to give Vinny credit for switching to an offense because of a liability [OL] rather than to address it.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

DARN IT Of!

You SERIOUSLY need to stop doing this to me man.

While scanning the thread list, your title popped out at me, and in my desperate enthusiasm for change I almost whooped aloud.

Then I read and realized the "change" I hoped for in my excitement to my folly, WASN'T a change of Executive VP.

Darn it, hopes raised and dashed in one go. :mad:. (I'll refrain from posting on the overall why's and wherefore's of the said "Vinny." I think you could fill in my response yourself. .).

Hail.

[Skinsinparadise]

Um, Vinny didn't hire Zorn. Snyder did, and only after his first six choices refused to take the job because Snyder had already hired all of the assistant coaches.

If I recall what was at least reported, don't recall if it was JLC's blog or the WP but I remember reading that Vinny was the one who especially liked Zorn and had concerns about Fassel who Snyder liked. That reporting could be wrong, guess we will never know but that sounds intuitive to me considering I did read and hear from Fassel himself in an interview that he and Snyder are chummy.

[Gibbs Hog Heaven]

Fassel, Mariucci and Zorn -- didn't you realize that we wanted to go WCO early in the coaching search?

And here's me thinking they were the only chumps prepared to work under the restraints the current regime puts on it's HC. :doh:

Hail.

[TheLongshot]

It never was a great line, but it was above average for a couple of years. When healthy, it's average these days, but this group is unlikely to stay healthy over 16 games.

All semantics, really, but it has been a strength of this team for a long time and it only wasn't when Spurrier was here. That seemed to be more about him than the talent on the field.

I have no idea how they graded linemen in the draft. I wouldn't overreach to take linemen.

Neither would I, but if the team really though that OL was that weak, I would think that they would have drafted more there, just like they did at WR.

Louis Riddick talked in this forum about Marty wanting one type of player; Spurrier wanted another; then Gibbs wanted another. It wasn't a problem for him. You find players that fit the coaches scheme. You don't have talent evaluators who are WCO specialists.

You completely missed my point. Sure, a personnel guy is going to try to get the players the coaches need no matter who they are, but when the guy has a choice in head coach, he is going to have his own preferences. To say that a guy who spent most of his career with the team that made the WCO famous isn't going to have a preference for it is somewhat silly.

YOU COMPLETELY MISSED THE POINT. Changing the drop back scheme concedes that the defense is dictating. Build a better O-line and you widen the aperture even for the Godly WCO that is an irresistable force and certain guarantor of SBs. The emphasis should be on fixing that *rappy line...a line that has been injury riddled for years and cannot pass block. Changing the drop back/timing (which comically emphasizes an area that might not exactly be a core strength for JC: recognition/decision-making speed) is a patch...not a fix.

Skins fans should not take their eyes off the ball. This less than stellar FO has mismanged the roster for years. the proof is there for all to see on the field. the notion that dropping to a 3 step drop is going to rectify more fundamental problems is ludicrous....and should be resisted. GET THE RIGHT PLAYERS. DON'T SELL OFF YOUR FUTURE. DON'T COMMIT TO A HYBRID OFFENSIVE CONCEPT PRECISELY BECAUSE YOU ARE BOXED IN BY PERSONNEL/ROSTER/CAP DECISIONS OVER THE YEARS.

And I doubt they are going to ignore the problem once it is identified. Usually the question is, are the options out there?

We have a junk food franchise. Why is it the purveyors of eternal hope and excuse making can't see that? It needs a real GM. It has REAL problems weaning itself off a culture that understands the Skins to be a pipe to fat paychecks and early off-seasons to enjoy all that money.

I think for the most part they have weaned themselves off that culture under Gibbs. Really, the only time we fell under that trap under Gibbs was when we went off script in 2006, and we've paid a significantly high price for that binge.

[The Sisko]

What people have not grasped yet is that a O-line that serves Gibbs well may not be the same type that a West Coast one does.

It will take time to re-tool and re-train something few people on this site want to hear.

If we dont win now... Fire Zorn Fire Vinny

If we don't tear it all down and rebuild ... Fire Zorn Fire vinny

If we don't emphasize the Draft ... fire Zorn Fire Vinny

If we don't sign big name free agents ... yada yada

As the readership had increased here at extremeskins the IQ has lowered.

What you haven't grasped yet is that the OL Gibbs inhereted was also several years younger than the one that literally broke down in front of our eyes this season. Who, besides Gibbs while he was here, was responsible for ignoring their advancing age? Who was responsible for gambling that Heyer could be a starting RT in the NFL? Who was responsible for ignoring our lines for year after year after year?

So, in the spirit of your post, I'll respond by pointing out what appears to be your theory of how things should work.

We don't, and outside of Gibbs 2.0, haven't won... Trust Danny, Trust Vinny!!

We change coaches/systems/team philosopy with a focus that's as sharp as a beachball... Trust Danny, Trust Vinny!!

We haven't emphasized the draft... Trust Danny, Trust Vinny!!

We have/have not signed big name free agents - and still lost... Trust Danny, Trust Vinny!!

For the record, I'd like to see Zorn get another couple of years to get his system installed with his choice of personnel. After all, if next season confirms that JC isn't the future, he'll be starting over from scratch with either Dolt Brennan or a rookie QB.

When it comes to Snyderatto, I've been pretty open about my disdain for both of them...more Danny than Vinny but neither has done a particularly good job at producing a good on-field product. However, if it's NOT Snyderatto, I'd be curious to know who you do hold responsible for our miserable showing over the past decade?

[darrelgreenie]

For the most part we agree. I just have a hard time giving Vinnie credit for Zorn's scheme. The WCO is not just 3 and 5 step drops though, an passing game WCO or any other requires a mix of 3-5-7 drop and PA passing.

I think that our reliance primarily on the 3 step drop short passing WCO was a response to the line decline of the offensive line. The offense didn't start off as 3-step drop only passing but eveolved into it as the season progressed. If the offensive had better pass pro then IMO Zorn's passing game would have been more open ala Seattle in the past. (BTW Seattle receivers aren't 'Big')

I can't remember which game this is from anymore, but IMO it sums up Zorn's opinion of the offensive line and how it effects the passing game:

http://www.espn980.com/audiovault/

Quote from Zorn talking about early in the game........"I [Zorn] didn't know what kind of protection we were gonna have. So I tried to throw quicker rhythm throws not 3 step drops but 5 step, that could get us the 1st or near the 1st down but we kept getting tackled at the catch.........I could have gone the other route and tried to get deeper routes going and risk protection and I wasn't willing to do that at that particular time"

[Pounds]

Bringing in Jim Zorn to speed up the QB's drops and release and install the WCO scheme, with fewer seven-step drops than the Gibbs plan, was a smart move by Vinny. It deemphasized the weakness of the O line in pass protection.

I think, considering the field of candidates and circumstances surrounding the HC position here in D.C., that we came away with, or rather, backed-into the best possible coach.

If given my druthers for a larger pool of more accomplished candidates would I have hired Zorn? Probably not. But considering whom we had to choose from, I'm glad Zorn got the job. I would have flipped my wig had Spagnuolo gotten the gig.

But I disagree with your contention here, Oldfan, that the WCO de-emphasizes o-line play; this is an over-generalization. There is more to the WCO than how many steps there are in a QB's drop.

For instance, a staple of this offense is the zone blocking scheme; a scheme predicated on the athleticism of the o-linemen executing it. Many of the blocking schemes in the passing game are based largely off of zone blocking run schemes: action passes (waggles, boots and such).

In this sense, the WCO places even more emphasis on the offensive line.

I submit to you: when Casey Rabach is arguably one of your most athletic and effective linemen in getting to the second level, de-emphasizing the o-line is a hard thing to do.

[Ernie5]

What people have not grasped yet is that a O-line that serves Gibbs well may not be the same type that a West Coast one does.

It will take time to re-tool and re-train something few people on this site want to hear.

If we dont win now... Fire Zorn Fire Vinny

If we don't tear it all down and rebuild ... Fire Zorn Fire vinny

If we don't emphasize the Draft ... fire Zorn Fire Vinny

If we don't sign big name free agents ... yada yada

As the readership had increased here at extremeskins the IQ has lowered.

Agree that the Fire Zorn Fire Vinny thing makes Redskins fans look impatient, ignorant, and vapid -- sorta like Bear fans (my bro used to live in Chicago and, according to their fans, the Bears were either Super Bowl bound or the worst team in football). I like to think people realize that updating the offensive scheme will take more than a season.

[Ernie5]

WCO doesn't de-emphasize O-line play, per se, but it does take pressure off the pass protection by getting the ball out quickly.