HS Football: Dunbar forfeits to Fort Hill Citing Racial Taunts (10-02 WP Update)

[Teller]

I really don't see anyone branding the entire team, community, or school as bigots.

I have seen people having valid questions about things that don't make sense in this case about the scenario presented by those who think that noone on Fort Hill probably did anything wrong here.

Noone would crucify you on this board for raising questions about a reversed situation because as far as I can read - that's all anyone has done from what I have read.

It's not the questions that bother me. Questions are fine. It's the attitude that "even if they're exhonerated, I still believe it happened" that I find ridiculous.

As far as this not making sense, well, people do things that don't make sense all the time. That doesn't mean it's someone else's fault.

I think, given the fact that Coach Jeffries was complaining about the officials before the game ever happened, there's another EQUALLY plausible scenario....

Coach Jeffries tells his kids, "Hey look, we're not going to get a fair shake up there. These officials are going to do everything they can to make sure we lose."

He may or may not have brought up the confederate flag flap.

So these kids go up there, expecting to get screwed, but fighting hard to win anyway. Then the personal fouls start adding up, "just like coach told us was going to happen."

That's when the tears and helmet tossing begins. (Well, it begins shortly after the coaches on-field tirade, directed at the officials. Lending further credence, in the kids' minds, to "we're gonna get screwed."

[Heisenberg]

It's not the questions that bother me. Questions are fine. It's the attitude that "even if they're exhonerated, I still believe it happened" that I find ridiculous.

As far as this not making sense, well, people do things that don't make sense all the time. That doesn't mean it's someone else's fault.

I think, given the fact that Coach Jeffries was complaining about the officials before the game ever happened, there's another EQUALLY plausible scenario....

Coach Jeffries tells his kids, "Hey look, we're not going to get a fair shake up there. These officials are going to do everything they can to make sure we lose."

He may or may not have brought up the confederate flag flap.

So these kids go up there, expecting to get screwed, but fighting hard to win anyway. Then the personal fouls start adding up, "just like coach told us was going to happen."

That's when the tears and helmet tossing begins. (Well, it begins shortly after the coaches on-field tirade, directed at the officials. Lending further credence, in the kids' minds, to "we're gonna get screwed."

That's a pretty big conspiracy theory.

I'm under the assumption that this would be a hard thing to prove regardless but I think it's equally as bad to assume the coach made some crap up. I find it hard to believe it's the first time Dunbar has played a "white" school like that.

I think it's possible to assume something may have happened without thinking the entire team, school, or community is at fault.

I'm sure there were teammates on my team in high school that would say stupid crap that I wouldn't agree with.

I just think you make a pretty large conspiracy theory that is equally as unfair as the situation you are upset about.

[Teller]

That's a pretty big conspiracy theory.

I'm under the assumption that this would be a hard thing to prove regardless but I think it's equally as bad to assume the coach made some crap up. I find it hard to believe it's the first time Dunbar has played a "white" school like that.

I think it's possible to assume something may have happened without thinking the entire team, school, or community is at fault.

I'm sure there were teammates on my team in high school that would say stupid crap that I wouldn't agree with.

I just think you make a pretty large conspiracy theory that is equally as unfair as the situation you are upset about.

So my "gut feeling" doesn't fly, but the other side's does.

I wonder why that is.

There's MORE fact on my side. Coach Jeffries WAS complaining about the officiating crew prior to his arrival. He obviously DIDN'T think he was going to get a fair shake, or he WOULDN'T have said anything about it.

It's OK though.

I think I get it now.

I just wanted to confirm my theory.

[DjTj]

Generally I like, and respect, Wilbon.

I'm just having a hard time getting past the "even if they're exhonerated by every investigation, I still can't imagine it didn't happen thing."

This attitude makes me physically ill. WHAT WILL CLEAR THESE KIDS IF THEY DID NOTHING WRONG?!?!

Apparently, if you're African-American, nothing.

That's inexcusable.

I didn't get that impression from the article at all. Wilbon blames history, he blames hip-hop culture, and he even blames his own baggage. He doesn't blame the kids.

Thing is, the Dunbar and Fort Hill players themselves probably could work through this issue if the right people got them together. They're too young to be on a road to prejudice and hate, and competing with and against kids who don't look like them is the absolute answer to the problem.

Babe Ruth was prevented from playing with black players in the major leagues, but he often barnstormed in the offseason with Negro League players. Billy Packer wasn't allowed, officially, to play against black players when he was in high school and college, but he often went looking for the best black players to watch or play against -- in secret. Pat Riley's all-white Kentucky team lost the historic NCAA championship game in 1966 to all-black Texas Western in an outcome a whole lot of southern folks, and that includes people in Maryland and Virginia, didn't like.

The Texas Western players hold a reunion every so often to celebrate that championship. And there's at least one outsider they invite all the time, a man who gets choked up at the notion they would extend themselves to him in such a way.

Riley.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/25/AR2008092504168.html

I think that's a pretty positive message.

[DCMONEY]

It's not the questions that bother me. Questions are fine. It's the attitude that "even if they're exhonerated, I still believe it happened" that I find ridiculous.

As far as this not making sense, well, people do things that don't make sense all the time. That doesn't mean it's someone else's fault.

I think, given the fact that Coach Jeffries was complaining about the officials before the game ever happened, there's another EQUALLY plausible scenario....

Coach Jeffries tells his kids, "Hey look, we're not going to get a fair shake up there. These officials are going to do everything they can to make sure we lose."

He may or may not have brought up the confederate flag flap.

So these kids go up there, expecting to get screwed, but fighting hard to win anyway. Then the personal fouls start adding up, "just like coach told us was going to happen."

That's when the tears and helmet tossing begins. (Well, it begins shortly after the coaches on-field tirade, directed at the officials. Lending further credence, in the kids' minds, to "we're gonna get screwed."

Man once again Jefferies has played against officiating crews over the years that he doesn't like and never brought up these type of allegations. There was a game last year or 2 years ago in D.C. where Dunbar won and he was kicked out for the 1st and only time during his time as head coach. He stated that there was a particular official that he though didn't care for their program but he never made these type of allegations. I've seen and heard him give speeches dozens of times to his kids and never once before a game have I heard him say oh fellas the officials might screw us or whatever. Thats not his style. At least it wasn't when I attended their games all the time. I only get to them here and there now. Unless he just real recently got paranoid and crazy thats never been his style when I was around the team. As Wilbon alluded to, losing a game doesn't shake him or else he could pad the schedule with patsies every year. If you look at Dunbar's out of conference schedule, every year their playing tough out of conference games.

[Teller]

And I've never seen an incident like this at FH. What's your point?

The FACT remains he asked for a split-crew, months before the game.

Granted it's speculation, but why do you think that might be???

[Teller]

I didn't get that impression from the article at all. Wilbon blames history, he blames hip-hop culture, and he even blames his own baggage. He doesn't blame the kids.

Thing is, the Dunbar and Fort Hill players themselves probably could work through this issue if the right people got them together. They're too young to be on a road to prejudice and hate, and competing with and against kids who don't look like them is the absolute answer to the problem.

Babe Ruth was prevented from playing with black players in the major leagues, but he often barnstormed in the offseason with Negro League players. Billy Packer wasn't allowed, officially, to play against black players when he was in high school and college, but he often went looking for the best black players to watch or play against -- in secret. Pat Riley's all-white Kentucky team lost the historic NCAA championship game in 1966 to all-black Texas Western in an outcome a whole lot of southern folks, and that includes people in Maryland and Virginia, didn't like.

The Texas Western players hold a reunion every so often to celebrate that championship. And there's at least one outsider they invite all the time, a man who gets choked up at the notion they would extend themselves to him in such a way.

Riley.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2008/09/25/AR2008092504168.html

I think that's a pretty positive message.

Leaving out this part....

"Fort Hill's reaction makes this whole episode as perplexing as it is ugly. Its players say it simply didn't happen, that there were no such slurs. Coach Todd Appel has said everything you could possibly want to hear from a man whose players have been accused of such. Appel seems especially sensitive and in tune with what such an incident could mean, and he made it clear in public comments how intolerant he would be of such hateful insults. Beyond that, though, denial has been the name of the game. "

Suppose nothing DID happen. WTF in God's name were they SUPPOSED to say?????

[Heisenberg]

And I've never seen an incident like this at FH. What's your point?

The FACT remains he asked for a split-crew, months before the game.

Granted it's speculation, but why do you think that might be???

The racial incidents last year have been widely reported - yet you always seem to leave that out.

Like it or not - that plays into the perception here and it gives credence to the possibility that this may have happened.

[DjTj]

Leaving out this part....

"Fort Hill's reaction makes this whole episode as perplexing as it is ugly. Its players say it simply didn't happen, that there were no such slurs. Coach Todd Appel has said everything you could possibly want to hear from a man whose players have been accused of such. Appel seems especially sensitive and in tune with what such an incident could mean, and he made it clear in public comments how intolerant he would be of such hateful insults. Beyond that, though, denial has been the name of the game. "

Suppose nothing DID happen. WTF in God's name were they SUPPOSED to say?????

But that's exactly the point. Whether it happened or not, there's really no way to tell from the conflicting accounts.

Wilbon admits his own bias.

Nobody's objective when it comes to racial issues. We all have our baggage. I know the look and the disgust Jefferies refers to because I've been called the N-word to my face by people who vehemently and repeatedly denied doing so.

This doesn't mean that a player on Fort Hill, even if he said such a thing, is a bigot. He could have resorted to the wrong means of getting under an opponent's skin. He could have heard one too many hip-hop songs from one of his favorite artists and thought it was just fine to use that word. He could have heard it at home and uttered it without thinking, or joined in, thinking it was all part of trash-talk, then denied it out of sheer embarrassment.

But he doesn't blame the kids.

Even if it DID happen, he doesn't call the kids racists.

[Dan T.]

H_Hog, turn your thinking around for just a second. I admire that you're sticking up for the Flint Hill kids. But you keep saying there is no evidence that racial things were said, so you by definition disregard the accounts of several of the Dunbar students who said that it happened. So in defending the Flint Hill kids, you're assuming the Dunbar kids are lying.

Your gut feeling is that it didn't happen. From the outside looking in, that's a fair conclusion to reach. Just as it is a fair conclusion for others to think that something did happen on the field in those pileups, when independent proof from an outside witness is all but impossible to obtain.

And people can differ on Coach Jefferies' actions to pull his team. Personally, I think he could have handled it much, much better, regardless of whether the slurs occurred or not.

[Teller]

H_Hog, turn your thinking around for just a second. I admire that you're sticking up for the Flint Hill kids. But you keep saying there is no evidence that racial things were said, so you by definition disregard the accounts of several of the Dunbar students who said that it happened. So in defending the Flint Hill kids, you're assuming the Dunbar kids are lying.

Your gut feeling is that it didn't happen. From the outside looking in, that's a fair conclusion to reach. Just as it is a fair conclusion for others to think that something did happen on the field in those pileups, when independent proof from an outside witness is all but impossible to obtain.

And people can differ on Coach Jefferies' actions to pull his team. Personally, I think he could have handled it much, much better, regardless of whether the slurs occurred or not.

I understand what you're saying, Dan. And I agree with you.

I've said, very recently in this thread, "ask the questions. Do the investigations. Find out what happened."

Right now, there has been no conclusion reached, by the school, by the board, by the city PD, by ANYONE that this happened. Meanwhile, I can unequivocally prove Dunbar's actions. That's just fact. I'm sorry, but it is.

I think the last remaining investigation is via the state's attorney's office. If they find merit to Dunbar's players and coaches' statements, I'll come back here and take my lumps. If no proof is found, then I believe some apologies to our school and community are in order.

What bothers me, as I've stated repeatedly, is that even if this final investigation reveals that nothing was said, some here will still believe it. And that, honestly, infuriates me.

[btfoom]

I really don't see anyone branding the entire team, community, or school as bigots.

....

Then you didn't read Wilbon's article. Just the title link on the main page "PREJUDICE UNWELCOME", the title of the article itself "Racial Prejudice Pops Up in an Arena Normally Free of It", and several things he wrote in the article,

"Fort Hill's reaction makes this whole episode as perplexing as it is ugly. Its players say it simply didn't happen, that there were no such slurs. Coach Todd Appel has said everything you could possibly want to hear from a man whose players have been accused of such. Appel seems especially sensitive and in tune with what such an incident could mean, and he made it clear in public comments how intolerant he would be of such hateful insults. Beyond that, though, denial has been the name of the game."

The sad thing is that the word that Wilbon uses, prejudice, means "an adverse opinion or leaning formed without just grounds or before sufficient knowledge " (source: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/prejudice"). This is EXACTLY what Wilbon himself is doing. I don't know if the kids did or did not use the 'N' word. At this point, I don't think there will ever be a definitive answer. The real problem is that people like Wilbon will automatically judge them as guilty (you know, that whole 'prejudice' thing). It doesn't flow one way only.

[Thiebear]

I waited the 72hours after to see if any other "truth" came out.

Seems like everything was done wrong...

The coach left out the refs.

The other team is not lilly white so ........

Will wait longer..

[Kosher Ham]

I love this story

[Corcaigh]

I think, given the fact that Coach Jeffries was complaining about the officials before the game ever happened, there's another EQUALLY plausible scenario....

Coach Jeffries tells his kids, "Hey look, we're not going to get a fair shake up there. These officials are going to do everything they can to make sure we lose."

He may or may not have brought up the confederate flag flap.

So these kids go up there, expecting to get screwed, but fighting hard to win anyway. Then the personal fouls start adding up, "just like coach told us was going to happen."

That's when the tears and helmet tossing begins. (Well, it begins shortly after the coaches on-field tirade, directed at the officials. Lending further credence, in the kids' minds, to "we're gonna get screwed."

We know that Jeffries brought his biases to the game (his public pre-game comments to the local radio station said essentially that he expected to get screwed) and that no doubt influenced his players mentality.

As I've said already, I hope the authorities fully investigate this and get sworn statements from all parties. This is not something that should be treated lightly, and whether someone made racist taunts, or someone lied about the other side and cried wolf, either party needs to be exposed and the real situation made clear.

[Teller]

We know that Jeffries brought his biases to the game (his public pre-game comments to the local radio station said essentially that he expected to get screwed) and that no doubt influenced his players mentality.

As I've said already, I hope the authorities fully investigate this and get sworn statements from all parties. This is not something that should be treated lightly, and whether someone made racist taunts, or someone lied about the other side and cried wolf, either party needs to be exposed and the real situation made clear.

I agree with you entirely.

[DjTj]

What bothers me, as I've stated repeatedly, is that even if this final investigation reveals that nothing was said, some here will still believe it. And that, honestly, infuriates me.

meh, even though OJ was acquitted, we all still believe he murdered his wife.

Even though the 9-11 Commission issued a report on how the Towers fell, people still believe the government did it.

How many people believe Obama is a Muslim?

You're never going to be able to convince 100% of people about anything, even if it is the truth.

[Dan T.]

I understand what you're saying, Dan. And I agree with you.

I've said, very recently in this thread, "ask the questions. Do the investigations. Find out what happened."

Right now, there has been no conclusion reached, by the school, by the board, by the city PD, by ANYONE that this happened. Meanwhile, I can unequivocally prove Dunbar's actions. That's just fact. I'm sorry, but it is.

I think the last remaining investigation is via the state's attorney's office. If they find merit to Dunbar's players and coaches' statements, I'll come back here and take my lumps. If no proof is found, then I believe some apologies to our school and community are in order.

What bothers me, as I've stated repeatedly, is that even if this final investigation reveals that nothing was said, some here will still believe it. And that, honestly, infuriates me.

I really hope the state attorney's office doesn't get involved. It shouldn't come to that. What I hope is that representatives from both schools somehow use this as a teaching opportunity, reduce the friction, and minimize the damage caused by this incident.

I think it is unfair that some view Fort Hill as a racist area. I have no doubt there are people in that community with backward, racist views. But I also have no doubt that they are very few and far between, and in no way represent the community as a whole. But because a couple of idiot kids with a pickup truck and a confederate flag generated news a couple of months back, the entire community got unfairly branded. And that type of general stereotyping as hurtful and repulsive as any other stereotyping.

[Teller]

meh, even though OJ was acquitted, we all still believe he murdered his wife.

Even though the 9-11 Commission issued a report on how the Towers fell, people still believe the government did it.

How many people believe Obama is a Muslim?

You're never going to be able to convince 100% of people about anything, even if it is the truth.

*Personal bias alert*

It just seems to me that throughout this thread, skin tone has had a great deal to do with who is believed, who is assumed to be guilty, and what action should be taken.

And I'll be perfectly honest, it's that perception that helps to foster the resentment that I have about situations like these. It seems that, while I'm expected to give the benefit of the doubt (and I try to do that), it's perfectly OK for people of other skin colors to assume that "whitey's guilty."

And he's guilty based on nothing more than an unproven assumption.

How does that attitude help us get to where we need to be? How does that foster in me the desire to extend the olive branch? Where's my incentive to be objective in the next "black guy wronged by the cops" thread?

It may not seem like it sometimes....hell....it may not seem like it now. But all I want is some damned equality. I don't judge a man of another skin color before the facts come out. Provide my race with the same courtesy.

Please do not misunderstand me. I realize that minorities are probably still more consistently wronged than whites in this country. And where I see that, I pray to have the good judgement to stand against it.

But don't think for a second that little things like these don't matter; that they don't breed hostility and resentment that might not have been there beforehand.

Maybe I'm being melodramatic, but my heart physically aches for this country sometimes. We're better than this. All of us. Why the **** is it so hard for us to show it?

[Teller]

I really hope the state attorney's office doesn't get involved. It shouldn't come to that. What I hope is that representatives from both schools somehow use this as a teaching opportunity, reduce the friction, and minimize the damage caused by this incident.

I think it is unfair that some view Fort Hill as a racist area. I have no doubt there are people in that community with backward, racist views. But I also have no doubt that they are very few and far between, and in no way represent the community as a whole. But because a couple of idiot kids with a pickup truck and a confederate flag generated news a couple of months back, the entire community got unfairly branded. And that type of general stereotyping as hurtful and repulsive as any other stereotyping.

I agree, Dan.

You're going to have a certain percentage of idiots in any race, in any community, in any school. I realize that. I don't think every kid at Fort Hill, nor my Alma Mater across town are saints. I know better. Nor do I believe, nor expect, that all of Dunbar's kids are perfect, or that all of Southeast DC loves people like hog.

Human beings are by our very nature flawed. But if we use one isolated incident to start painting schools, and entire towns, with a broad stereotyping brush, we do only ourselves a disservice.

[DjTj]

*Personal bias alert*

It just seems to me that throughout this thread, skin tone has had a great deal to do with who is believed, who is assumed to be guilty, and what action should be taken.

I don't know. Reading this thread, it seems like there are as many people on Fort Hill's side as Dunbar's side. It does break down by race somewhat, but also by geography and political affiliation (two things that also tend to correlate highly with race).

And I'll be perfectly honest, it's that perception that helps to foster the resentment that I have about situations like these. It seems that, while I'm expected to give the benefit of the doubt (and I try to do that), it's perfectly OK for people of other skin colors to assume that "whitey's guilty."

And black people said the same thing when everyone assumed OJ was guilty. Or, as Wilbon points out, when Iverson was labeled a thug. The resentment you feel is the same resentment that drives black people to make the assumptions that drive the resentment that you feel ... it's a vicious circle.

But I think it's a circle. There is no side being disproportionately hurt by this. We're all being hurt by it, and we're all partially at fault. It sucks, but that's just where we are right now as a society. It's a lot better than a few decades ago when there was physical violence instead of passive aggressive accusations on internet message boards ...

[Teller]

But I think it's a circle. There is no side being disproportionately hurt by this. We're all being hurt by it, and we're all partially at fault. It sucks, but that's just where we are right now as a society. It's a lot better than a few decades ago when there was physical violence instead of passive aggressive accusations on internet message boards ...

Touche.

[Kosher Ham]

Note to self: Ask HH not to participate in racial threads. J/K.

Again it comes down to prejudice, not racism.

[Teller]

Note to self: Ask HH not to participate in racial threads.

Innocent until proven guilty; just one of the MANY unpopular positions I hold. (Well, that and "treat people of different races the same way.")

Craziness.

[Kosher Ham]

Innocent until proven guilty; just one of the MANY unpopular positions I hold. (Well, that and "treat people of different races the same way.")

Craziness.

Caught in the edit.