JLC says the broncos won the portis bailey trade

[stoney26]

I didn't like giving up the 2nd, but if Champ was truly not going to play here for whatever rumored reason, they had to get something in return for him.

In any event, Springs has played at a higher level for the Skins than Champ did.

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Springs has nothing on Champ.

[skinzwiz]

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Springs has nothing on Champ.

Very True...how could someone say Springs is better than champ:silly: .

[Merlin Emrys]

It seems kind of ironic that this thread began by asking who's opinion we should trust more - an experienced and successful GM like Charlie Casserly, or a dumb ass reporter like JLC. We've now gotten to the point where internet message board posters are arguing that their opinions regarding Chump Bailey are more valid than those of actual NFL players and coaches who help chose the Pro Bowl teams.

On one hand we're told to trust an experienced NFL man, on the other we're told not to listen to current coaches and players. My head is spinning.

The best I can gather from this raging debate is that the answer depends on your evaluation criteria. People look at it in two ways:

1. Value at the time of the deal

2.Hindsight.

I would say that at the time of the deal, the scales were overwhelmingly in Denver's favor. They tricked the Redskins into giving away a 2nd round pick.

In hindsight the deal didn't work out as bad as anticipated, mainly because Tatum Bell turned out to be a bust.

[skinzwiz]

It seems kind of ironic that this thread began by asking who's opinion we should trust more - an experienced and successful GM like Charlie Casserly, or a dumb ass reporter like JLC. We've now gotten to the point where internet message board posters are arguing that their opinions regarding Chump Bailey are more valid than those of actual NFL players and coaches who help chose the Pro Bowl teams.

On one hand we're told to trust an experienced NFL man, on the other we're told not to listen to current coaches and players. My head is spinning.

The best I can gather from this raging debate is that the answer depends on your evaluation criteria. People look at it in two ways:

1. Value at the time of the deal

2.Hindsight.

I would say that at the time of the deal, the scales were overwhelmingly in Denver's favor. They tricked the Redskins into giving away a 2nd round pick.

In hindsight the deal didn't work out as bad as anticipated, mainly because Tatum Bell turned out to be a bust.

No RB is a bust in Denver. They will start a 4th string RB and he will give a 100 yards in a game. Tatum Bell was good in Denver. When he left, thats where he became garbage. This is the same for a guy like Ruben Droughns. I thought it was an equal trade. Denver needed a CB and Washington needed a RB. You could, however, argue that Denver had an edge because they do so well with "nobodies" at the RB position.

[LB Dizzle]

my 2 cents says that Portis carried us into the playoffs on his back both years we made it since hes been here. So if you were to ask me, id say we won that trade. Not down talking Bailey though for he is a great player, just that a running back and not only at that, but a player of portis' caliber is much more valuable to our team than that of a "shutdown cornerback"

[Califan007 The Constipated]

I think the Broncos would have been WAY better off if they had kept Portis and signed Springs...

[ouvan59]

I am not spinning anything. You cannot determine at this point who we would have spent that second round pick on. No one can predict that. I was only saying Bob Sanders to illustrate the caliber of player that would have been available at that pick. Plus, if you think about it, who's to say that we would have drafted ST in the first round if we still had Champ? No one can predict that.

The heck you aren't spinning anything. You picked the absolute best player that was chosen in the second round and decided to use that to strengthen your argument. The argument isn't what we could have had but what Denver got and what Denver got was Champ Bailey and a journeyman running back. And has been mentioned time and time again considering that RBs are a dime a dozen Denver has been trying to replace Portis ever since he left.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

And has been mentioned time and time again considering that RBs are a dime a dozen Denver has been trying to replace Portis ever since he left.

How many draft picks have they wasted trying to fine Portis' replacement? 20? lol...

[ZoEd]

It seems kind of ironic that this thread began by asking who's opinion we should trust more - an experienced and successful GM like Charlie Casserly, or a dumb ass reporter like JLC. We've now gotten to the point where internet message board posters are arguing that their opinions regarding Chump Bailey are more valid than those of actual NFL players and coaches who help chose the Pro Bowl teams.

On one hand we're told to trust an experienced NFL man, on the other we're told not to listen to current coaches and players. My head is spinning.

You bring up a good point and in most cases we should default to the GM's and football smart people. However, when it comes to the Redskins there's never a fair shake.

The media bias is so freaking lopsided it's ridiculus. Why is it the Cowboys can do no wrong and Redskins can do nothing right? I mean the media is talking about how fearsome the Cowboys defensive backfield is going to be with Pacman in it but the dude hasn't even been cleared to play yet. :laugh: You don't find that laughable?

They're Super Bowl contenders with one WR threat but we're picked to finish last in the NFC East last season due to lack of size and a true #1 at WR. What's good for the goose is never good for the gander when it comes to the Redskins. No matter what we do we're wrong. A different NFL team makes the same move or finds themselves in a similar situation and they're contenders, explain that to me.

Champ Bailey was #9.

Clinton Portis was not in the top 50.

So we gave up the 9th best player in the league AND a 2nd round pick for a guy who doesn't crack the top 50.

So if we put so much stock into the ANALysts and their lists explain this for me.

This same list that is written in stone as if handed down by the hand of God has Jason Taylor as the 10th best player in the league. Wow! We just picked up the 10th best player in the league. This should catapult a defense, that in most peoples mind, lacked a true pass rushing DE. I mean we were freaking idiots for passing up a DE in the draft.

No, hold your freaking horses Redskin nation; this was the most stupid, short term fix you could have made. Jason Taylor is over the hill even though he's coming off a Pro Bowl season. (Isn't the Pro Bowl the tell all for talent in the NFL?) WTF were the Redskins thinking? Stupid idiots! I mean PFW had him ranked 10th LAST year, he sucks now that he's a whole year older and danced during the offseason instead of eating twinkies with Bill Parcells down in Miami. :doh:

[ouvan59]

You could, however, argue that Denver had an edge because they do so well with "nobodies" at the RB position.

Well by that logic you have to say they don't have the edge because they do so poorly with great players in their secondary.

[ouvan59]

This same list that is written in stone as if handed down by the hand of God has Jason Taylor as the 10th best player in the league. Wow! We just picked up the 10th best player in the league. This should catapult a defense, that in most peoples mind, that lacked a true pass rushing DE. I mean we were freaking idiots for passing up a DE in the draft. :

LOL, nice grab. He's already on record as blasting the Jason Taylor acquisition. I can't wait to see the spin on this one.

[Parlett316]

Bailey was getting beat by James Thrash and Amani Toomer when he was here everytime.

Good riddance.

[Oldfan]

These rankings are wiggity wack! You pulled the YPC stat.

These are the real rankings:

2007: 6th in NFL

2006: 44th in nFL (injured)

2005: 4th in nFL

2004: 8th in NFL

That's 3 times!

He has had at least 1,250 yds rushing in season where he played all the games.

The total yardage stat is the worst possible measure of individual performance for a RB. YOU could gain 1,250 yards at six inches per carry if they gave you the ball 7,500 times.

The best stats available are on the footballoutsiders.com website. They had Portis ranked equal to his jersey number, 26th in 2007.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

The total yardage stat is the worst possible measure of individual performance for a RB. YOU could gain 1,250 yards at six inches per carry if they gave you the ball 7,500 times.

The best stats available are on the footballoutsiders.com website. They had Portis ranked equal to his jersey number, 26th in 2007.

The problem I have with footballoutsiders' stats for running backs is that the threshold is too low...they rank rbs with a minimum of only 100 rushes, or 6 rushes per game. They should make the threshold at least 200 rushes. Or at the very least they should break the rankings down by each 100 carries. A running back who has 325 carries should not be compared in equal footing as a running back who only had 105 carries.

[bulldog]

Tatum Bell was a bust. Bailey made the pro bowl but as we have seen a cornerback with no front seven doesn't equate to success for a defense.

Meanwhile, Portis has 3 1,200 plus seasons for the Redskins and the defense has finished in the top 10 3 of the 4 seasons Champ has been gone.

Neither team has won a Super Bowl, so there is no additional weighting for The Big Win on their resume.

Besides, bottom line - Bailey didn't want to be a Redskin even at high dollars while Portis is happy to be here.

[Oldfan]

The problem I have with footballoutsiders' stats for running backs is that the threshold is too low...they rank rbs with a minimum of only 100 rushes, or 6 rushes per game. They should make the threshold at least 200 rushes. Or at the very least they should break the rankings down by each 100 carries. A running back who has 325 carries should not be compared in equal footing as a running back who only had 105 carries.

That's a valid criticism.

Actually, I think yards-per-carry for a RB is one of the better individual stats kept by the NFL. I think we have to remember though that a power RB who consistently averages 4.0 per carry is far more valuable than a home run hitter who averages 4.0.

I consider Portis an above average back. His YPC average last year was lower than the league average because of injuries on the right side of the line and predictable play calling.

I think Champ has been the #1 CB in the NFL over his career.

Back when I needed to argue that the draft was the most effective way to build a roster. I did a study of the 2006 all-pro team. 53 of the 56 players were playing with the team that drafted them. Two were free agents. Only one was acquired by trade... Champ Bailey.

[Mooka]

Top CB + a 2nd round pick > RB.

Springs and Bell were not in the trade, they are afterthoughts. We had to dump Champ; we did and it worked out well for both teams. I do like the Bronco fans always claiming they could easily replace Clinton though. We replaced Champ just fine.

[ZoEd]

It's difficult to compare a RB to a CB for obvious reasons. People keep throwing in the second round pick but IMO that shouldn't carry much weight since the player acquired for it never really made an impact and isn't even with the team anymore, nor is he all that great for the team he currently plays for. So let's just throw the second rounder out the window.

Here's the way I look at it.

Has Denvers Defense been built around Champ Bailey and is he the key reason for whatever success they've had since his arrival?

For the Redskins I think the answer is obvious when you take into consideration what CP's contributed to this team. The offense does center around CP and has since his arrival. He's directly responsible for this team making the playoffs twice. When he's not in the game our offense is terrible. Yes Betts gained yards but he couldn't score. Yards are **** without TD's.

Has Champ put his team on his back and carried them? Seriously, I don't know because I don't watch enough of their games to know for sure. All I ever hear is Champ is this and that but I never see what makes him so special. He's good, maybe even great at his position but is he the face of the franchise? Is he "that" guy? I don't hear or read that anywhere. Matter of fact the only people I hear talking about how great Champ is are the Mediots.

If you want to go to the stats, again look at my previous post where his YA average is worse than Springs. You tell me.

For the life of me I as a Redskin fan can't figure out how fans of this team can watch a game and see what CP does on the field and still come on here and say he's "spectacularly unspectacular". He leaves it on the field every game he's in. He's throwing monster blocks, he's not being a little biatch like the TO's and CJ's of the NFL. He loves this team and it's fans and shows it. He's exciting to watch and has never complained about this team or his role on it. Hell, he even backed up Betts when he couldn't score on the 1 foot line. How many RB's would have done that? It's not about "is he as good as LT" or what he's ranked by a bunch of desk jockeys who got beat up in high school instead of playing football. It's about the intangables, his heart, his passion for the game and his ability to raise the level of everyone around him. He has put this team on his back every year since putting on the Redskin jersey. I don't think you can say the same about Champ. :2cents:

[Oldfan]

Tatum Bell was a bust. Bailey made the pro bowl but as we have seen a cornerback with no front seven doesn't equate to success for a defense.

Meanwhile, Portis has 3 1,200 plus seasons for the Redskins and the defense has finished in the top 10 3 of the 4 seasons Champ has been gone.

Neither team has won a Super Bowl, so there is no additional weighting for The Big Win on their resume.

Besides, bottom line - Bailey didn't want to be a Redskin even at high dollars while Portis is happy to be here.

What Denver did with our #2 is not relevant. The #2 pick has value. We might have traded up back into the low first round to get Steven Jackson who would have been the power back that Joe needed.

If we use their career averages as a guide, Ladell Betts could have given us those 1,200 yards seasons.

So, our defense wasn't bad without Champ, but you aren't saying it wouldn't have been better with him, are you?

Who cares whether the players are happier with the trade? The fact remains that we took a hosing on the deal.

[TheREALJBird]

What Denver did with our #2 is not relevant. The #2 pick has value. We might have traded up back into the low first round to get Steven Jackson who would have been the power back that Joe needed.

If we use their career averages as a guide, Ladell Betts could have given us those 1,200 yards seasons.

So, our defense wasn't bad without Champ, but you aren't saying it wouldn't have been better with him, are you?

Who cares whether the players are happier with the trade? The fact remains that we took a hosing on the deal.

You're senile, we have one of the elite running backs in the NFL, maybe the most well rounded. A 2nd round pick has value sure, but it depends on what you do with it. Denver got a bad lemon out of it. Maybe we could have gotten a solid player with it, maybe not. It's all in the past now and I'm very happy to have CP here in Washington

[ZoEd]

Even knowing what I know now and seeing both of them play since the trade I'd still do the exact same thing tomorrow if need be to get CP on this team. I think it's one of the best moves the FO has ever made.

Opinions are like ass holes.......................

[Gregpeck99]

The three most important things you need to win in the NFL is turnovers, efficiency in the red zone and TOP. Unfortunately, CP has not produced enough to overcome the overriding drag of Brunell/Gibbs in the latter two catagories ... so he never reached his full potential as a Skin. Therefore, in my opinion ... the trade was a loser. Score one for JLC.

[GibbsFactor]

Top CB + a 2nd round pick > RB.

Springs and Bell were not in the trade, they are afterthoughts. We had to dump Champ; we did and it worked out well for both teams. I do like the Bronco fans always claiming they could easily replace Clinton though. We replaced Champ just fine.

Champ was gone.

So it is more like this. 2nd round pick for Clinton Portis.

[Shilsu]

Champ was gone.

So it is more like this. 2nd round pick for Clinton Portis.

I don't understand this. HOW was Champ gone? Was he going to retire? Was he going to abandon the NFL for the CFL? He was franchised, meaning he was property of the Redskins.

[Oldfan]

You're senile...

I could burn 40% of my brain cells and still be smarter than you.

...we have one of the elite running backs in the NFL, maybe the most well rounded.

Take off the burgundy glasses.

We gave up a perennial all-pro shutdown corner, a first-round HOF selection, and threw in a #2 draft pick for an above-average RB. I have it marked down as the second-worst trade in Redskin history.

The worst was trading away safety Paul Krause, now in the HOF, to Minnesota for Marlin McKeever.