JLC says the broncos won the portis bailey trade

[Donita35]

Here lies the problem, when someone says they feel Denver received the better end of the deal, people are automatically assuming that is a slab at Portis, which is not true. Portis has been serviceable and has done wonders for the Redskins. But when evaluating the thread topic, it is a fact that great corners are harder to come by than above average RBs, which let's face it, that is what Portis has been. So, whose to say that we couldn't have kept Champ and found another back to produce just as much, if not more. To back up my point of view, I have pulled RB rankings since 2004 from NFL.com. Portis has only been in the top ten once.

Now one can argue how good or bad that is, but to stick to the topic at hand, we gave up a second round pick, which could have been Bob Sanders, for an above average RB not a great one. Plus, he was in a run first offence under Gibbs. Come on people. A straight up trade would have been good, I guess. But to throw in that second round pick makes the trade definitely in Denver's favor.

2007

1 Adrian Peterson

2 LaDainian Tomlinson

3 Brandon Jacobs

4 Brian Westbrook

5 Willie Parker

6 Jamal Lewis

7 Ronnie Brown (not even playing the whole season)

8 Marshawn Lynch

9 Steven Jackson

10 Willis McGahee

11 Fred Taylor

12 Clinton Portis

2006

1 LaDainian Tomlinson

2 Larry Johnson

3 Frank Gore

4 Tiki Barber

5 Steven Jackson

6 Willie Parker

7 Shaun Alexander

8 Travis Henry

9 Rudi Johnson

10 Brian Westbrook

11 Chester Taylor

12 Tatum Bell

13 Ronnie Brown

14 Fred Taylor

15 Ahman Green

16 Thomas Jones

17 Edgerrin James

18 Ladell Betts

19 Warrick Dunn

20 Jamal Lewis

21 Willis McGahee

22 Deuce McAllister

23 Julius Jones

24 Joseph Addai

25 Clinton Portis

2005

1 Shaun Alexander

2 Tiki Barber

3 Larry Johnson

4 Edgerrin James

5 Clinton Portis

2004

1 Priest Holmes

2 Corey Dillon

3 Curtis Martin

4 Shaun Alexander

5 Julius Jones

6 Chris Brown

7 Edgerrin James

8 Tiki Barber

9 Rudi Johnson

10 LaDainian Tomlinson

11 Clinton Portis

[Donita35]

If you think offenses game plan moreso for Champ than for Springs you are an idiot. Both guys are their respective teams number 1 corner. Every offensive coordinator gameplans for every player on the defense that they are going to face every week. If not, they'll be fired.

Now what you might have meant to say was that the defensive gameplan is to work around and avoid throwing at Champ moreso than Springs. I would disagree with this, but neither of us can prove it either way.

P.S. . Can I get some of what you are smoking? It is a wash whether Champ is better than Springs, but to say Champ is much better...

Now was that necessary???? You cannot make a point without name calling.???????? :mad:

[ZoEd]

Here lies the problem, when someone says they feel Denver received the better end of the deal, people are automatically assuming that is a slab at Portis, which is not true. Portis has been serviceable and has done wonders for the Redskins. But when evaluating the thread topic, it is a fact that great corners are harder to come by than above average RBs, which let's face it, that is what Portis has been. So, whose to say that we couldn't have kept Champ and found another back to produce just as much, if not more. To back up my point of view, I have pulled RB rankings since 2004 from NFL.com. Portis has only been in the top ten once.

Now one can argue how good or bad that is, but to stick to the topic at hand, we gave up a second round pick, which could have been Bob Sanders, for an above average RB not a great one. Plus, he was in a run first offence under Gibbs. Come on people. A straight up trade would have been good, I guess. But to throw in that second round pick makes the trade definitely in Denver's favor.

2007

1 Adrian Peterson

2 LaDainian Tomlinson

3 Brandon Jacobs

4 Brian Westbrook

5 Willie Parker

6 Jamal Lewis

7 Ronnie Brown (not even playing the whole season)

8 Marshawn Lynch

9 Steven Jackson

10 Willis McGahee

11 Fred Taylor

12 Clinton Portis

2006

1 LaDainian Tomlinson

2 Larry Johnson

3 Frank Gore

4 Tiki Barber

5 Steven Jackson

6 Willie Parker

7 Shaun Alexander

8 Travis Henry

9 Rudi Johnson

10 Brian Westbrook

11 Chester Taylor

12 Tatum Bell

13 Ronnie Brown

14 Fred Taylor

15 Ahman Green

16 Thomas Jones

17 Edgerrin James

18 Ladell Betts

19 Warrick Dunn

20 Jamal Lewis

21 Willis McGahee

22 Deuce McAllister

23 Julius Jones

24 Joseph Addai

25 Clinton Portis

2005

1 Shaun Alexander

2 Tiki Barber

3 Larry Johnson

4 Edgerrin James

5 Clinton Portis

2004

1 Priest Holmes

2 Corey Dillon

3 Curtis Martin

4 Shaun Alexander

5 Julius Jones

6 Chris Brown

7 Edgerrin James

8 Tiki Barber

9 Rudi Johnson

10 LaDainian Tomlinson

11 Clinton Portis

^^^^I raise you my above post sunshine. The media says Champ is the ****, his stats say otherwise. You're saying Champ is a shutdown corner, the mediots who are swinging from his tip are saying it but his 7.9 yds per attempt say's he's not as good as your salavating man lust thinks he is.

As for Portis, you can't put stats on his blocking and contributions as a whole on and off the field.

Show me one of the running backs ranked higher than him that's putting LB's on their freaking asses.

Show me one of the running backs ranked higher than him that had the entire starting right side of their line gone for one season to include his starting RT twice and his starting LT for another season. You think this had nothing to do with his production.

You talk about Gibb's run first offense, well duh. Did he have any other choice? Face the facts, there isn't too many bullets in the gun outside Cooley and Portis. Yea Moss has had his moments but not often enough to take the heat off of Portis.

[dizzinator53]

Here lies the problem, when someone says they feel Denver received the better end of the deal, people are automatically assuming that is a slab at Portis, which is not true. Portis has been serviceable and has done wonders for the Redskins. But when evaluating the thread topic, it is a fact that great corners are harder to come by than above average RBs, which let's face it, that is what Portis has been. So, whose to say that we couldn't have kept Champ and found another back to produce just as much, if not more. To back up my point of view, I have pulled RB rankings since 2004 from NFL.com. Portis has only been in the top ten once.

Now one can argue how good or bad that is, but to stick to the topic at hand, we gave up a second round pick, which could have been Bob Sanders, for an above average RB not a great one. Plus, he was in a run first offence under Gibbs. Come on people. A straight up trade would have been good, I guess. But to throw in that second round pick makes the trade definitely in Denver's favor.

2007

1 Adrian Peterson

2 LaDainian Tomlinson

3 Brandon Jacobs

4 Brian Westbrook

5 Willie Parker

6 Jamal Lewis

7 Ronnie Brown (not even playing the whole season)

8 Marshawn Lynch

9 Steven Jackson

10 Willis McGahee

11 Fred Taylor

12 Clinton Portis

2006

1 LaDainian Tomlinson

2 Larry Johnson

3 Frank Gore

4 Tiki Barber

5 Steven Jackson

6 Willie Parker

7 Shaun Alexander

8 Travis Henry

9 Rudi Johnson

10 Brian Westbrook

11 Chester Taylor

12 Tatum Bell

13 Ronnie Brown

14 Fred Taylor

15 Ahman Green

16 Thomas Jones

17 Edgerrin James

18 Ladell Betts

19 Warrick Dunn

20 Jamal Lewis

21 Willis McGahee

22 Deuce McAllister

23 Julius Jones

24 Joseph Addai

25 Clinton Portis

2005

1 Shaun Alexander

2 Tiki Barber

3 Larry Johnson

4 Edgerrin James

5 Clinton Portis

2004

1 Priest Holmes

2 Corey Dillon

3 Curtis Martin

4 Shaun Alexander

5 Julius Jones

6 Chris Brown

7 Edgerrin James

8 Tiki Barber

9 Rudi Johnson

10 LaDainian Tomlinson

11 Clinton Portis

These rankings are wiggity wack! You pulled the YPC stat.

These are the real rankings:

2007: 6th in NFL

2006: 44th in nFL (injured)

2005: 4th in nFL

2004: 8th in NFL

That's 3 times!

He has had at least 1,250 yds rushing in season where he played all the games.

[FlyinO]

Now was that necessary???? You cannot make a point without name calling.???????? :mad:

I apologize. Didn't mean it like that, just an expression, ya know. :dallasuck :eaglesuck :gaintsuck :point2sky

[ntotoro]

You talk about Gibb's run first offense, well duh. Did he have any other choice?

Not really. It was either that or face eight in the box every single play, which was pretty much what Portis did because our pass game was so pathetic. Not to mention losing half the O-Line last year. His yards were hard yards.

[Donita35]

These rankings are wiggity wack! You pulled the YPC stat.

These are the real rankings:

2007: 6th in NFL

2006: 44th in nFL (injured)

2005: 4th in nFL

2004: 8th in NFL

That's 3 times!

He has had at least 1,250 yds rushing in season where he played all the games.

So what if I did kriss Kross. YPC is certainly important. Oh and for the record those rankings are by yards per game.

[dizzinator53]

Now allow me to play devil's advocate:

Champ Bailey is inconsistent.. He was tied for 48th in INT's in 2004

He had 18 int's in two years in 2005-2006

Then he was 41st in 2007

??????

The second rounder they got: Tatum Bell

Tatum Antoine Jones (born March 2, 1981 in Dallas, Texas) is an American football running back for the Detroit Lions of the National Football League. He was originally drafted by the Denver Broncos in the second round of the 2004 NFL Draft. He played college football at Oklahoma State. Bell has a reputation for costly fumbles, including 5 fumbles in the 2006 season, all ending in turnovers. These fumbles led to the Oakland Raiders naming their fumble recovery drill "The Tatum Bell Drill".

Never started all 16 games

1 -1,000 yd season out of 4

10 fumbles

14 TD in 5 years

What a 2nd rounder that was.

[ntotoro]

So what if I did kriss Kross. YPC is certainly important.

It either means you're a trifling RB, which Portis isn't, or you face Defense's who stack three LB's and a DB close to the line because you know the Offense can't/won't throw against you. Even Rerun doesn't have enough moves to get by that kind of traffic.

[dizzinator53]

So what if I did kriss Kross. YPC is certainly important.

Sure it is if you're choosing Pro Bowl players ....*cough Marion Barber cough*

Overall production I think is more important.

[dizzinator53]

It either means you're a trifling RB, which Portis isn't, or you face Defense's who stack three LB's and a DB close to the line because you know the Offense can't/won't throw against you. Even Rerun doesn't have enough moves to get by that kind of traffic.

Go break dance with Rog

[ntotoro]

Go break dance with Rog

Uh-huh...

Uh-huh...

Uh-huh...

Unh UNNHH!!!

[CapitalDefense]

casserly was talking about it on WPL,and said it benefited both teams.

were as JLC quickly quipped that the skins gave up a 2nd rounder as well. (ended up being tatum bell who is a bum)

JLC also said that the broncos have been a perennial playoff team with bailey.Funny thing is skins playoff record is the exact same as the broncos these past 4 years.

2 appearances in 4 seasons

with just 1 win and 2 losses.

granted the broncos have a better regular season record than the skins,but Bailey went to a much more at the time stable franchise.Where as the skins were in the process of building the team in Gibbs vision.

IMO as of now it's an even trade.

I can't stand JLC but he is right here, the Broncos got the best conerback in the league and we got a sub par RB. Portis is a good player, not great, and his YPC average shows that. He is not a homerun hitter like everyone thought he was when we first got him. Ladell Betts could get 1300 yards and give us 4 yard per carry if given the carries.

[ouvan59]

and we got a sub par RB..

:doh:

[pjfootballer]

JLC is a hater and a douche.

[DarrellsMyHero28]

Can we trade JLC for Woody Paige?

Love him or hate him, Paige > JLC

:laugh:

[ZoEd]

I can't stand JLC but he is right here, the Broncos got the best conerback in the league and we got a sub par RB. Portis is a good player, not great, and his YPC average shows that. He is not a homerun hitter like everyone thought he was when we first got him. Ladell Betts could get 1300 yards and give us 4 yard per carry if given the carries.

Betts could get 40yds per carry and still not make it in the endzone. I think the endzone is kryptonite for his ass. When has Ladell ever been a threat to take it to the house everytime he touches the ball? I don't care what you say or think, everytime CP touches the ball there's a chance he can break one and take it to the house. Betts would probably trip and fall on the 1 foot line. :doh:

[ouvan59]

we gave up a second round pick, which could have been Bob Sanders, for an above average RB not a great one.

I love how people like to cherry pick the best case scenario trying to spin an argument in their favor. Do you know who else it could have, and more likely would have been? Tatum Bell or Juliet Jones. We had drafted Sean Taylor in the first round. Do you really think we are taking another safety in round 2 or do you think we go RB because we were desperately thin there? But that's not even the point. The point is everyone likes to point out the second round pick but rarely mentions that Denver's pick was a bust. How is that not factored into the equation.

I'll just say that I am happy as hell that Clinton Portis is a Redskin and has been for 4 four years.

[grego]

Stumbled across this interesting tidbit on this site

http://boards.buffalobills.com/showthread.php?t=65865

It's a Bills (But I Like Losing Superbowls) message board but it's taken from an ESPN article. These are statistics my friends, not media man crush or any of that bull**** but freaking statistics. Oh, and pay particularly close attention to the tandem in second. I guess Springs is spectacularly unspectacular as well.

Can we now put this bull**** to rest? :cool:

great find, zoed. confirms what i (and a few others) was saying earlier. springs is underrated, champ is - no hating here, just sayin- overrated.

[Donita35]

I love how people like to cherry pick the best case scenario trying to spin an argument in their favor. Do you know who else it could have, and more likely would have been? Tatum Bell or Juliet Jones. We had drafted Sean Taylor in the first round. Do you really think we are taking another safety in round 2 or do you think we go RB because we were desperately thin there? But that's not even the point. The point is everyone likes to point out the second round pick but rarely mentions that Denver's pick was a bust. How is that not factored into the equation.

I'll just say that I am happy as hell that Clinton Portis is a Redskin and has been for 4 four years.

I am not spinning anything. You cannot determine at this point who we would have spent that second round pick on. No one can predict that. I was only saying Bob Sanders to illustrate the caliber of player that would have been available at that pick. Plus, if you think about it, who's to say that we would have drafted ST in the first round if we still had Champ? No one can predict that.

[grego]

I always laugh when I read something like this. The only reason he is considered better now is because he is no longer a Skin. As proof of this is Peter King himself. Prior to the 2003 season King ranked his top 10 CBs and he did not include Bailey. He mentioned that while he was good, he was beaten too much to be considered great. He then went on to have his worst year as a Redskin. If you recall the "great" Champ Bailey was not the team defensive MVP that year. The award went to Fred Smoot. Bailey was toasted on several high profile plays including by Amani Toomer and Keshawn Johnson.

So what happens? Bailey forces the Skins to trade him to the Broncos and then all of a sudden he is considered the best CB in football. Keep in mind that he wasn't considered a top 10 CB the year before and then proceeded to have the worst year of his career up to that point and then all of a sudden he is the best. Why? The only conclusion that can be drawn is that he was no longer wearing the burgundy and gold. To further cement Bailey's deification he then gives up a whopping 10 TD passes the next year and not only is he not knocked down a few pegs he is glorified even further.

Another thing to keep in mind is that the year after the trade Denver got worse statistically in both rushing offense and pass defense while the Redskins got better in both. Sorry if I refuse to look at this as a bad trade but what I saw was a player that didn't want to be here who forced the Skins hand and the Skins turned that into getting a player who is the heart and soul of the team.

see my comments to zoed above. well said.

[SnyderMustGo]

Erm, am I seeing people trying to tell me Champ Bailey is not very good?

Ok.

Not that this is dispositive of the issue, but Pro Football Weekly rated the top 50 players in the NFL.

Champ Bailey was #9.

Clinton Portis was not in the top 50.

So we gave up the 9th best player in the league AND a 2nd round pick for a guy who doesn't crack the top 50.

(Now this is where you tell me that PFW is stupid and haters and wrong and you are right that Champ sux and Portis rulz)

[McD5]

I can't stand JLC but he is right here, the Broncos got the best conerback in the league and we got a sub par RB. Portis is a good player, not great, and his YPC average shows that. He is not a homerun hitter like everyone thought he was when we first got him. Ladell Betts could get 1300 yards and give us 4 yard per carry if given the carries.

1300 yards? Are you crazy!!!

He can do that in half a season.

:applause:

[ZoEd]

Erm, am I seeing people trying to tell me Champ Bailey is not very good?

Ok.

Not that this is dispositive of the issue, but Pro Football Weekly rated the top 50 players in the NFL.

Champ Bailey was #9.

Clinton Portis was not in the top 50.

So we gave up the 9th best player in the league AND a 2nd round pick for a guy who doesn't crack the top 50.

(Now this is where you tell me that PFW is stupid and haters and wrong and you are right that Champ sux and Portis rulz)

I'm not going to tell you anything that you shouldn't already know. Them not having Portis in the top 50 players in the NFL should be all you need to know about their analysis.

Better yet, I can name 10 players off the top of my head that should be ranked higher, much higher than Champ. What criteria did PFW use? Stats? I've already posted the stats, what else do you need to see? You don't think there's media bias when choosing their top 50? Seriously, answer the question for yourself.

[Merlin Emrys]

What wasn't true about the statement? If we don't trade Roland, we don't sign Springs. Portis and Springs deal was less than what the Broncos gave Roland. Portis is the the best player on this team. Springs has played at Roland's level since he's been here.

Springs was a free agent signing. He was not a part of the said deal. I fail to see the connection here.