brettstr Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Can anyone here explain to me simplistically, the differnce between what Zorn is attempting to do and what Spurrier failed at doing. Are these not the same offenses. What makes this organization believe we can be successful if we already failed in this system? Who else in this division has been successful with this system. Confused Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Warpath11 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Spurrier does not run a West Coast Offense. Within the NFC East the Philadelphia Eagles run a West Coast offense other teams in the NFC that run a version of it are Seattle, Green Bay, Minnesota, and Tampa Bay. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kuraitengai Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 i think the fun and gun was a pass control offense where the WCO is a pass offense designed to set up the run. the fun and gun wasnt designed to use passing to set up the run. and the fun and gun was a go deep often type of thing to put massive points on the board. while the WCO mainly uses short pass route to move the ball, which get about the same amount of yards as a decent rush. thats just my assessment on it and should in no way be taking for complete fact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortiz Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 i think Zorn's offense will be much more horizontal, it will focus more on slants, and safer throws. I think Zorn will call a lot more quicker passing plays as well, i.e. 3 step drops. In addition cooley and davis will play bigger roles. Did a TE have a catch in Spurriers offense? Pass protection will be more of a premium in this new offense We are not going ot see as many gadet plays and 3 or 4 WR sets as well. I think with Zorns offense we see longer more meticulous drives. Not really the bruising 3 yards and cloud of dust drives anchored by the run, but long drives that take smaller chunks of yards with safe passes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
elkabong82 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Fun n' gun has as many pass catchers on the field as possible, which means little protection for the QB, which is why Ramsey was annihilated back there.] The WCO uses a zone blocking technique, and employs many sets, not just 5 WR. WCO is a proven offense on the NFL level. Fun n' gun is proven only at the college level. WCO emphasizes the pass to set up the run, fun n' gun really only emphasizes the pass. Thta's about as simplistic as I can make it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 The WCO and the Fun n Gun are very different animals. Aside from formations and blocking schemes, what makes the Fun n Gun unique is the QB progressions. Nearly every play in Spurrier's system calls for a deep pattern. And in every play, that is the first read. When Spurrier says his favorite play is "Touchdown," he means it and literally every pass play he runs is designed to create a touchdown. Basically, your progressions go from deep to intermediate to short to checkdown. It is a vertical passing game. The WCO is a horizontally-built passing game. The idea is to isolate receiver on short routes to create a running game through the air. Basically drop three steps and through to a receiver coming out of a cut. Once you forced the defense to play the short pass, you throw deep. Once you have thrown deep, then you start to run on a front 7 worn out by constantly playing the pass. The blocking schemes are very different. Spurrier likes a single back set without a Tight End. And he like to send everyone into the pattern. So, you felt with five linemen. Factor in that nearly everything is off a five or seven step drop and you leave the QB exposed. The idea is that teams will not be able to hit the QB before he can find the open guy out of the 5 receivers. In college, that worked a lot. In the pros...not so much. The blocking in the WCO is different. It utlizes TEs and FBs and can keep them in to block. It is also based off three and five step drops so the QB is getting rid of the ball in a hurry. More protection and quicker releases lead to less sacks. But you have less receivers and not as many deep patterns. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gortiz Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Spurrier's offense is like Adam Dunn the WCO is like Ichiro Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NavyDave Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 The West Coast Offense originated in Cincinatti but Cincy didn't have hall of famers on offense to run it or a defense to back it up. Allegedly we will keep the smashmouth aspects of our running game, but it boils down to how healthy our offensive line will be for Portis/Betts to have holes to run thru and J Campbell the time to plant,progress and throw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Never4get#21 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Fun n' gun has as many pass catchers on the field as possible, which means little protection for the QB, which is why Ramsey was annihilated back there.]The WCO uses a zone blocking technique, and employs many sets, not just 5 WR. WCO is a proven offense on the NFL level. Fun n' gun is proven only at the college level. WCO emphasizes the pass to set up the run, fun n' gun really only emphasizes the pass. Thta's about as simplistic as I can make it. Yeap but the fun and gun also had deeper routes for all the recievers which put pressure on the few OL to hold block. The idea was it opens up the Middle of the field for gap runs and big play potential (didnt work). The WCO emphasizes quick reads and release. The OL doesnt hold blocks as long. Quick Slot recievers are usually the check down or a quick back. It pulls the safeties in for the deep threat later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Yeap but the fun and gun also had deeper routes for all the recievers which put pressure on the few OL to hold block. The idea was it opens up the Middle of the field for gap runs and big play potential (didnt work).The WCO emphasizes quick reads and release. The OL doesnt hold blocks as long. Quick Slot recievers are usually the check down or a quick back. It pulls the safeties in for the deep threat later. The idea behind the Fun and Gun is to create space and huge throwing lanes. You have five pass catchers spread out all over the place with defenders chasing them. There should be a big throwing lane somewhere. And there were times when this happened here. Just not enough because the QB was usually getting hammered. The West Coast is not intent on creating space. The QB is closer to the line of scrimmage at release. The receiver is closer to the DB. Everything is tighter. This is why you need a deadly accurate QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Boy1Der Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 The thing thats so positive about Jim Zorn and the West Coast offense is that out of all the teams that run it in the NFC Seattle, Tampa Bay, Green Bay and the Eagles not one of those teams had a losing record. Mike Holmgrem is the coach of Seattle and two of his former QBs coaches run those teams so you can see the reasoning behind making Zorn are head coach and why were switching our offense. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
China Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 I see it as also more passing to set up the run rather than running to set up the pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 I see it as also more passing to set up the run rather than running to set up the pass. Both the WCO and Fun n Gun do that. Spurrier had some great running backs at UF and used them effectively. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
styx491 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Spurrier's offense is like Adam Dunnthe WCO is like Ichiro :applause::applause::applause: Winner! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
[[ghost]] Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Spurrier's mantra was, "look downfield first, then check it down." Isn't the WCO the opposite? Check down, and take what the defenses give you. I thought that was why receivers who can run after the catch are so crucial. Because you can't live off of 5 yard passes all the time, you'll need someone to take a short catch and make it a decent run. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stophovr6 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 So hopefully instead of seeing Run, Run, Pass, Punt. We will see Pass, Pass, Run, First down? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MoeRedskins Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Can anyone here explain to me simplistically, the differnce between what Zorn is attempting to do and what Spurrier failed at doing. Are these not the same offenses. What makes this organization believe we can be successful if we already failed in this system? Who else in this division has been successful with this system.Confused Watch football much? The only thing west coast about Spurrier is his laziness (surfing hippies). Outside of that, they are very different. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mooka Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Spurrier could've ran the most amazing, unstoppable, innovative offense the NFL had ever seen and it wouldn't have mattered. Stop thinking about Spurrier. His offense didn't work very well because our line couldn't protect the QB, but he failed mainly because he was bad coach. No discipline, no respect from the players, and he almost ruined out franchise with bad moves in FA and a neglect of the draft. Even when he did draft they were sub-par. He didn't run a west coast offense either. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PlayAction Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Basic differences: Spurrier Offense: 7 step drop Progression: Deep, Middle, Short. Low percentage throws but high return. OL has minimal help from TEs and FB - needs to be good at pass protection Running - Draw plays used extensively Gibbs 5-7 step drop, hooks and hitches Passes - horizontal, deep on play action and checkdown. Relatively high percentage throws except for deep. Often 1 or 2 WRs - max protect Running - heavy emphasis on running plays between the tackles. The OL is built for power blocking. Saunders Shorter drops Timing Passes - horizontal. Mid/Short with deep throws on play action. More WRs when Todd Collins was in. Less use of max protect for OL Running - zone blocking when OL was heathly and Betts was in. Blocking schemes were ineffective last year with OL injuries. WCO Many variations of the WCO. Passes - horizontal and short. Emphasis on high percentage throws with gains coming in yards after the catch. Relies upon the extended handoff instead of standard running plays. That is, many passes will occur behind the line of scrimmage - screen plays and other dump offs to RBs and FBs. Position Groupings - varied. We may see 4 WR sets, 2 pass catching TEs + 2 WRs, 2 RBs + 1 TE + 2 WRs. Since Cooley and the new TE have both done HB duty I expect we'll see those guys moving around quite a bit. Running plays - generally zone blocking as WC OL's are often designed for pass blocking first and power blocking second. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bluegrizzlies1 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Didn't the 49ers run the WCO with montana and young ? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cdross23 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 I love the idea of Zorn bringing in the West Coast offense, and I think our team will be able to handle it better than the other (previously listed) WCO teams in the league. 1. Jason Campbell is a very smart player. He's got a big arm, and people will complain his release is too long or accuracy is off, but I think his intelligence and being able to read the D and find the open receiver will make him a strong QB in this scheme. 2. Drafting Fred Davis, after my initial WTFs, is a great idea. He'll be able to study and learn from Cooley (who would be the best mentor in the NFL, imo), and develop into a very similiar player. After he develops, I hope to see two TEs on the field every down. They're both tall, can run after the catch, can block on the line for a run, but the best part is their ability to block down field for Santana or Randle. If either SM or ARE can get a block or two downfield infront of them, I can see them running it for a bunch of TDs off screen passes. Anyways, there's my optimistic opinion. Counting down to training camp.... EDIT: I think Cooley and Davis should take blocking lessons from Portis. Man is that guy an animal in the backfield. Just loves to level out blitzers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lombardi's_kid_brother Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Didn't the 49ers run the WCO with montana and young ? Uh, yea. Bill Walsh is credited with inventing it in...wait for it...Cincinnati in the 70s. He brought it to San Franciso where it took off. Like most offenses that old, it's been altered by a dozen different coaches and is probably a small part of everyone's playbook by now. Mike Holmgren and Andy Reid are probably the last "purists." Redskin fans should be acutely aware of the WCO since we've seen a pretty basic version of it twice a year since Reid moved in. Fassel ran a version of it in NY too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tiger187126 Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 Hopefully Portis can give Wetbrook a run for his money in this system, I always thought that the way he's going to be used in this offense was what he was best at. It could also add a year or two to his durability. The run and gun ruined one of my favorite QB's, I liked Ramsey. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BRAVEONAWARPATH Posted April 30, 2008 Share Posted April 30, 2008 This link is for anybody interested in the WCO. I recommend it. http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/chris/westcoast/wco.pdf Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
letzgoterps Posted May 1, 2008 Share Posted May 1, 2008 This link is for anybody interested in the WCO.I recommend it. http://www.centuryinter.net/midway/chris/westcoast/wco.pdf Hey, nice link. Wondering where you got that info from and if there's any other .pdf's and the such you could point me to? I have the summer off and am interested in learning everything about football as possible - from college to the pros and beyond. Any help would be appreciative, thanks guys! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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