DCSaints_fan Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Exactly!!!!!!!!So if John Conner sends back his dad to save his mom, then his dad dies, how in the **** does this make sense? It doesn't. His mom was a hippie, loves to club, he sends his dad back in time, to stop her from getting killed. which means, they should already know each other......deet dee dee! Uh, no, they never met until Reese went back in time. Sarah Connor, in the future, will know, but Sarah Connor of the past does not. I presume Reese doesn't (because he acts like he doesn't know in T1). It is difficult to wrap your head around, but *at least* there is no 'paradox' here (like kiling your own grandfather). Everything that happens is self-consistent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
EvoSkins Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 This should answer your questions. --------------------------- A predestination paradox, also called either a causal loop, or a causality loop and (less frequently) either a closed loop or closed time loop, is a paradox of time travel. It exists when a time traveler is caught in a loop of events that "predestines" him or her to travel back in time. Because of the possibility of influencing the past while time traveling, one way of explaining why history does not change is by saying that whatever has happened was meant to happen. A time traveler attempting to alter the past in this model, intentionally or not, would only be fulfilling his role in creating history as we know it, not changing it. he predestination paradox was an integral part of the first movie in the Terminator franchise: The Terminator. There are two main examples where a future time traveler goes back in time and fulfills their role in history (rather than changing it): * Kyle Reese fathering John - Kyle Reese goes back in time and fathers John Connor, whom he later works under in the Resistance. * The T-800 endoskeleton being left in the Cyberdyne factory - The T-800 endoskeleton left in the Cyberdyne factory triggers the AI research that eventually results in the creation of Skynet and terminators. (The actual scene showing that the factory in The Terminator is a Cyberdyne facility is in a deleted scene, but these facts are restarted in Terminator 2: Judgment Day). The predestination paradox is heavily tied to the concept of fate. The photograph of Sarah Connor by the Mexican boy is an example of this: the photo that Kyle had in the future is exactly the same as the one taken of Sarah at the end of The Terminator. This heavily suggests that the events of The Terminator fulfilled the predestination paradox: The Terminator and Kyle Reese traveled back in time to fulfill their roles in history, not to change it. Predestination paradox appears to be non-existent in Terminator 2: Judgment Day. Instead, the theme of the franchise turned away from fate and towards the concept of choice. A key quote from The Terminator was retconned to include the phrase, "There is no fate but what we make for ourselves." Sarah, John and the Terminator make an effort to prevent Judgment Day by eliminating Miles Bennett Dyson and destroying Cyberdyne headquarters. An alternate ending to Terminator 2 shows that James Cameron considered showing Sarah Connor as a grandmother, proving that the future had been altered. But in the end, he went with the more ambiguous ending that shows up in the theatrical release. He explained his reasoning in an interview: "But there was a sense that, why tie it up with a bow? If the future is changeable, then the battle is something that has to be fought continuously. And you can't do it with a single stroke. That it's the dualism, the dynamic between good and evil that's eternal." Terminator 3: Rise of the Machines also moves away from the predestination paradox. Instead, the theme is fate: Judgment Day is fated to happen and nothing John does can stop it. T3 does establish that the timeline has been changed by the events of T2: Judgment Day has been moved back. But fate is eventually inevitable, and Skynet can not be prevented - only moved back. Terminator: The Sarah Connor Chronicles embraces the mindset of T2. There is no fate but what you make, and it's possible to change the timeline. Predestination paradox has been put aside again, and Sarah and John themselves travel through time in an attempt to change the future. http://terminator.wikia.com/wiki/Predestination_paradox Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 OK, I cant ****ing take it anymore! The whole timeline is ****ed up. As a Sci-Fi geek, everyone knows that time is considered a loop right? So when John Conner sent his dad back in time (his dad didn't know he was his dad) to protect his mom, he ****ed her and then died.......This makes no sense. The future John Conner had to be conceived. He had to come from somewhere, prior to Kyle Reese getting a piece, then dying. Where in the mother **** did he come from???? He sent his dad back in time, so where did the original John Conner come from? Kyle Reese got his grove on then died. So wouldn't that change time/future? How does John Conner exist in the first place? That is what is so ****ed up..... I have been ****ing about this for a few days now to my wife. Anyone, can you shed some light on the topic? It is ****ing with me head!!!!!!!!!!!! I gotta have an explanation that makes sense!!! You want an explanation that makes sense? Fine... That's how they wrote it in the script. Its TV. I've always been of the opinion that its just better to not think too deeply about time travel fiction. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Sisko Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 This time travel stuff is pretty pedestrian compared to the REAL question at hand. That is, how on earth did any of you manage to actually get wives? Rince is right, you're overthinking it. Besides, there other holes in the plot. For example the bit about not being able to send inorganic material back in time unless you encase it in living tissue. Since they did this for the androids, why not do the same for other equipment they needed? How is their time travel technology "tricked" by such a ruse since I assume something like this would need to happen at the atomic level-sort of like the transporters on Star Trek? Oh, wait. How the heck did I get a wife? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGreenistheBest Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 Okay, as promised, I'm here to try to break this down for you movie by movie to see if I can make some sense of it. I will be doing all three movies but not the TV show because I haven't watched it yet. Still, by the time I'm done you should be able to draw your own conclusions about the show. The way this will work is I'll break down my timelines theory one film at a time. So without further ado... Terminator or Why doing lots of roids will make you look like a killer robot from the future Okay, lets recap. John Conner saves the human resistance from skynet. However, skynet, being the wiley little machine that it is, sends a terminator back in time to undo John Conner so that it can actually win the war. The events of film number 1 follow, at the conclusion of which nothing has been changed. So, let's break that down into a timeline, starting at the earliest point of the film and working forward. Timeline T1 A terminator, Arny, arrives from the future Reece arrives from the future Some random Sarahs are killed Sarah is chased by Arny, saved by Reece Sarah and Reece conceive John Reece is killed Arny is disabled Sarah escapes many years pass In 1996 (I think) judgment day occurs Reece is born many years pass John Conner leads the revolution skynet is defeated, but sends Arny back Reece volunteers to go back and stop him This timeline, while seemingly a bit confusing, is perfectly self-containing. The only part that tends to throw people off is the whole Reece loop. How can John's father be born after him? But really, it does work. Reece's role in the timeline requires that he travel back and father John. John is probably aware that Reece is his father, but he doesn't have to order him on the mission because he knows from his mom that Reece will volunteer. The easier way to look at this is "Reece is John's father because somebody had to do it." Therefore, it is not that Reece had to travel back in order to maintain the timeline, but rather that the timeline only exists because Reece had already traveled back. Confusing, but that's as simple as you can break it down. You'll just have to accept that. Terminator 2 or See that kid robbing the ATM? He's our savior. Terminator 2. Apparently skynet sent a couple terminators back to different times to make sure it got the job done. When John sent Reece back, he must have also had a terminator to send back already. These events would have had to occur almost simultaneously. But this is our first example of the timelines splitting. Let's lay it out. Timeline T1 (the same as above, with T2 events added and the split shown) A terminator, Arny, arrives from the future Reece arrives from the future Some random Sarahs are killed Sarah is chased by Arny, saved by Reece Sarah and Reece conceive John Reece is killed Arny is disabled Sarah escapes John is born Sarah is arrested John is fostered out A terminator, Scwartz, arrives from the future A terminator, 1000, arrives from the future The terminators face off, with Scwartz getting John They break Sarah out The three go fugitive They learn that Dyson has the parts of Arny They determine that Arny's parts lead to the creation of sknyet et al They go to destroy them They get the parts The terminators duke it out 1000 is destroyed They destroy the parts Scwartz points out that he must be destroyed too SPLIT: GO TO TIMELINE T2 BELOW In 1996 (I think) judgment day occurs Reece is born many years pass John Conner leads the revolution skynet is defeated, but sends Arny and 100 back Reece volunteers to go back and stop him and Schwartz goes back Timeline T2 All events leading up to SPLIT are the same Judgment day is postponed when Schwartz is destroyed, but still occurs Reece is born many years pass John Conner leads the revolution skynet is defeated, but sends Arny and 100 back Reece volunteers to go back and stop him and Schwartz goes back Thus, we have our first split. The events of Timeline T1 still occur exactly as they are laid out from the point of view of John and skynet looking back from the future. They have sent back their warriors and regardless of what they have done, nothing has changed for them at all. This is because it can't. Any changes made in the past would cause alterations in the future that would prevent the future denizens from sending anyone back to the past to change it in the first place. Thus, changes that occur create an alternate but parallel timeline. The people living at the time of the changes now follow the alternate timeline into the future, but the original timeline still exists, unchanged, parallel to them. It's not going to get any clearer but for the sake of argument, let's go ahead and do T3 Terminator 3 or John Conner sure turned into a *****. Let's just proceed to the timelines. Timeline T1 (the same as above, with T2 events added and the split shown) A terminator, Arny, arrives from the future Reece arrives from the future Some random Sarahs are killed Sarah is chased by Arny, saved by Reece Sarah and Reece conceive John Reece is killed Arny is disabled Sarah escapes John is born Sarah is arrested John is fostered out A terminator, Scwartz, arrives from the future A terminator, 1000, arrives from the future The terminators face off, with Scwartz getting John They break Sarah out The three go fugitive They learn that Dyson has the parts of Arny They determine that Arny's parts lead to the creation of sknyet et al They go to destroy them They get the parts The terminators duke it out 1000 is destroyed They destroy the parts Scwartz points out that he must be destroyed too SPLIT: GO TO TIMELINE T2 BELOW In 1996 (I think) judgment day occurs Reece is born many years pass John Conner leads the revolution skynet is defeated, but sends Arny and 100 back Reece volunteers to go back and stop him and Schwartz goes back Timeline T2 All events leading up to SPLIT are the same Sarah dies of cancer John goes off the grid A terminator, Govna, arrives from the future A terminatrix arrives from the future SPLIT: GO TO TIMELINE T3 BELOW Judgment day is postponed when Schwartz is destroyed, but still occurs Reece is born many years pass John Conner leads the revolution skynet is defeated, but sends Arny and 100 back and terminatrix back Reece volunteers to go back and stop him and Schwartz goes back John is killed and Kate sends Govna goes back Timeline T3 All events leading up to SPLIT(2) are the same The terminatrix kills several important future generals John runs into Kate The terminators enter the fray The terminators are both ultimately destroyed Judgment day occurs, although later than before Reece is born many years pass John Conner leads the revolution skynet is defeated, but sends Arny and 100 back and terminatrix back Reece volunteers to go back and stop him and Schwartz goes back John is killed(or maybe not since he has been warned in this timeline) and Kate sends Govna goes back Now we have three parallel but different timelines, all of which still exist. So, through watching the movies, we are viewing characters who have follow both splits and exist in Timeline T3. But Timelines T1 and T2 still exist. Looking back from either of those timelines, their memories would be of everything up to their SPLIT occuring, and then things after that occuring based on what would have happened if the SPLIT, for whatever reason, did NOT occur. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Redd Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 You're overthinking it. Wow alot of great responses especially DGreenisthebest. Never thought of it like that. I always thought the John Conner that sent Reece to the past had a different father than Reece. When Reece knocks Sarah up he ultimately changes history and he becomes the father to the savior of mankind. That inturn changes the future and is the reason why Skynet sends different Terminators rather than just one when John had a different father. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGreenistheBest Posted February 23, 2008 Share Posted February 23, 2008 You're overthinking it. Wow alot of great responses especially DGreenisthebest. Never thought of it like that. I always thought the John Conner that sent Reece to the past had a different father than Reece. When Reece knocks Sarah up he ultimately changes history and he becomes the father to the savior of mankind. That inturn changes the future and is the reason why Skynet sends different Terminators rather than just one when John had a different father. I think that's a possibility too. The great thing about it is you can go a lot of different ways with it. The only thing I think is required is a multiple timeline theory. You can't have a self-contained timeline past the first film. Thanks, btw. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 So what happens when Judgement Day is pushed back so far that Reece isn't alive for John to send back & knock his mom up? Does John blink out of existence/everything is then altered/someone is then becomes the savior of mankind? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGreenistheBest Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 So what happens when Judgement Day is pushed back so far that Reece isn't alive for John to send back & knock his mom up? Does John blink out of existence/everything is then altered/someone is then becomes the savior of mankind? Presumably, Reece is still born and still sent back in all possible splits. It seems judgment day was unavoidable, my guess would be that no matter how many splits there are, judgment day occurs prior to the 21st century. Therefore, there is no possiblity of Reece being born prior to judgment day or not being born at all. The thing is if skynet really wanted to stop John, they'd have to prevent judgment day themselves, therefore preventing Reece's birth and preventing him from getting sent back and preventing John from being born. So skynet and John Conner's fates are so intertwined that the only way to destroy one is to detroy the other. In that split, you would have a peaceful future with no John ever born. However, it would still be a split. The split is what prevents the paradox, because whatever skynet or John sent back to cause the split, their future remains in place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 Presumably, Reece is still born and still sent back in all possible splits. It seems judgment day was unavoidable, my guess would be that no matter how many splits there are, judgment day occurs prior to the 21st century. So following this line of thinking, Judgement Day would actually be an anchor point in the timeline/timestream. Right? Where's Doctor Who when you really need him. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DGreenistheBest Posted February 24, 2008 Share Posted February 24, 2008 So following this line of thinking, Judgement Day would actually be an anchor point in the timeline/timestream. Right?Where's Doctor Who when you really need him. :laugh: Yes, I think that's one plausible theory. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Finale is on NOW. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ArmchairRedskin Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 You guys hear that there is a new movie coming out with Christian Bale as John Connor. I believe it'll be set after Judgement Day and will take place during the war. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GibbsFactor Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 The story was inevitable. AI was going to be developed, what changed in the stories was how. Obviously the first Terminator didn't come from his arm as he never existed during the first loop. Since then, everything changes. It isn't even multiverses. It's the same universe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sticksboi05 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 The show is awful. Terminator 2: Judgement Day is the best film. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
McMetal Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 The show is NOT awful. Have you seen the sludge the networks have been trawling out lately? There are developing some interesting plot tangents and characters of actual depth. If they give it some time to grow, they could build a strong audience, not unlike BSG. Finale was pretty sweet. They better not mess up Summer Glau's icy good looks with that car bomb though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
redskins59 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 This is a really well made series. Of course the season ender wasn't going to be what we expected due to the writers strike, but it's still a very well made program. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Im so all in on this show. The story is great and even that douchebag from 90210 isnt that bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HOF44 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I like it too. I'll be pissed if it does not get renewed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 is it doing bad in the ratings? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 The show needs to last at least long enough for them to realize that a Terminator has been elected governor of California. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 WOW!! shes crazy!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 The show needs to last at least long enough for them to realize that a Terminator has been elected governor of California. And starts SkyNet. :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BigMike619 Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 Is the show doing bad enough that they may cancel it? I thought it was doing pretty well for a new show. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK Posted March 4, 2008 Share Posted March 4, 2008 I have to admit. I've been pleasantly surprised by the show. I honestly thought it would suck. The Johnny Cash bit at the end was a nice touch as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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