Time for my thoughts (bumped post from Jan. 2008) MET.

[TheDoyler23]

I think the suddenness of Gibbs departure was the cause for much of the FO's bungling. Spot on, Art.

[jbooma]

THIS post I really like.

:applause:

This makes so much sense to me. And THIS gives THE DAN actually DID learn something from Gibbs 2.

Except he made Vinny the GM

[Art]

so you're saying flexibility and adaptably under duress isn't a hallmark of this FO?

I agree with the thrust of your thinking (though I do not think Gibbs ever stated he would be back - as I recall..he became very non-committal once the whole ST debacle iht the fan)...just want to draw out some of its implications.

No. I think we're quite good at flexibility and adaptability and we're actually showing that here. If we legitimately accomplish the retention of almost the entire coaching staff and the hiring of a "new offensive mind" like Zorn, clearly they've gone out, listened to people they've been talking to and been working the system as effectively and efficiently as they can given they were dropped in to that situation so quickly. There is no holy grail hire in this batch.

Cowher, ok, maybe.

Mooch, ok, probably not.

Grimm is feel good. Frankly, so is Williams. Hell, one can not factually argue that Williams is a better head coach than Fassel. We hate Fassel, no doubt, but, he's more accomplished in the top job than Williams has been. I don't know that it'll be Fassel, of course, just saying.

[Tastes Like Chicken]

For me, Fassel ran undisciplined, inconsistent teams. Very Norv-esque, only with slightly larger balls. I do not believe he effectively helps a team that for the most part is defined by inconsistency. He's just not the coach I want here. I'll cheer for him if he's the coach I get, but, boy, I hope he doesn't do stupid things that make me crush him .

Wow, those are the same exact 2 words that Giants fans use to describe his teams, that I've spoken to.

[jbooma]

Gibbs told all of us he'd coach the full five years. We have no reason to believe he told Snyder and company otherwise. If so, I'd imagine succession planning would have started sometime THIS year. As it was, it seems Gibbs hurt is at least a little by dropping out with no real advance notice. Now, obviously, if he'd been telling people he was thinking about leaving we'd have been doing more to prepare for it.

He wasn't.

But, what I know for sure is you do not have owners actively planning on the next coach until they've made the decision there will be a next coach.

However what if Gibbs was a disaster after two year? Danny needed to have some type of succession plan in place, or he would not be doing his job. The FO is looking bad becaue they are bad. I know you are a huge Vinny supporter but it is clear that this FO has no clue on how to handle anything.

So was it 3 or 4 interviews for GW and then you don't talk to him after what 10 days??? Then go off and secretly interview other candidates.

This FO has no clue what they are doing, that my friend is what is clear. They asked Vinny the other day as he was leaving and he sounded like an idiot

Heck even Fassel is saying that they used him, and I have a feeling they used him on information on who they should hire, see Zorn. If Fassel is not the HC then it is clear Dannerto show is a joke, actually it has been since they came to DC. When was the last time we have had back-to-back seasons of 9 wins or more, you know the sign of a good team.

Plus it looks like Gibbs had a succesion plan as the president of FO opps, but guess what Danny threw it out the window. Which is why I think he is not being involved in the search because he wants nothing to do with the skins right now.

[mcarey032]

Art,

I respectfully disagree with your first point of your argument. I agree with many of your points that you posted, but I do not agree about the Gibbs leaving early part. When would have been a good time to leave the team? Right after the team was at 5-7 and have another distraction and not make the playoffs. His decision to leave was far better this time than it was in the past. He left us last time in March which virtually left us with no time to find a replacement. If he announced that he was going to leave early, I don't think that we make the playoffs and the team doesn't have any cohesion to it.

I do agree about the loyalty part and that we as fans are diehard, but it seems that Mr. Snyder knows that we are loyal and that we will support the team no matter what. I don't like how he has basically exploited us for his gain. I do believe that he is wants to win, but I don't think he knows how to get there. I am glad to see that there are some fans out there who have voiced their displeasure at the thought of having Jim Fassel as the head coach and that there is a chance that he is not going to force feed coaches and players down our throat.

[ThomasRoane]

Great post Art.

How do I reconcile changes at offensive coordinator where we swap out a guy proven to be capable of producing elite offenses for a pretty old first-time playcaller?

With the defensive staff staying in place (we hope!) I'm less inclined to panic for that side of the ball. Especially the move to lock up KO who I think will soon be our DC. If we actually smarten up (as you pointed out) and concentrate on what we have rather than always looking at what the Joneses have.

But you have to believe that Zorn is going to come in here and try to show off a bit. I'm afraid he's going to try and get all fancy on us. 'Look how good my offense is!' If you throw too much at the team too fast then they will be disorganized and hesitant. Get ready for a lot of offsides, illegal motions, wasted time-outs, etc.

And I worry what this will do to our make up. We had started to be bullies on offense. Now we go back to being the finesse guys. And that looks great in Sept thru Oct. But if you wanna make the playoffs you have to be able to impose your will on the other teams Defense.

For me, I hate the thought of Fassel being our coach. Just don't find him impressive. I'm pretty sure I won't find him so unless he pulls out a 13-3 season.

I just can't for the life of me see what they see in Fizzle. Being a coach myself for over 20 years I've learned that no matter what level you play at you will take on the Head Coaches personality. Our Skins have done that for every coach we had.

Under Norv, we'd make some great plays at times then lose concentration and do something really silly. Under Marty, we played tough but ultra conservative. The NFL is all about taking chances. Everyone knows the x's and o's. It's the risky plays that get rewarded. Under Spurrier we became a finesse team that could run around and really have some fun. Until someone like Philly hit us in the mouth (remember that Monday night debacle?). Then we'd just punk out.

Under Gibbs, we may have been conservative. But the self-inflicted wounds began to melt away. You didn't see all the sacks given up. Fewer motion and off-sides. Fewer turn-overs. And they never quit on a play (except for that one with Moss vs Seahawks that still has me pissed).

So what can we say about Fizzles' personality? What kinda team will we be. This is a guy that loves the camera. Who seemed (to me) to thrive off drama. The antithesis of Gibbs. He called out his 'friend' in Baltimore after being fired. So will this guy play the blame game in the post game conferences? Or will he man up like Gibbs and say "the buck stops here!" I think he'll be quick to sell out Zorn the first opportunity he gets and take over.

If snyder and vinny really wanna pull this outta the crap heap, then they should get on Redskin 1 and put on a full-court press for Grimm. Grimm has the personality make up of Gibbs. A quiet but steady presence. And a toughness about him. Grimm strikes me as a guy who can will his team to fight thru those tough losing streaks that every team must weather. He has history on his side and an appreciation for the madness that goes with being the most important man in the D.C. area.

Put it this way. You're about to take the field on a 4th and 1 with the game on the line from your own 35. Which coach will inspire you more to grind out that hard fought yard?

a. Grimm

b. Fizzle

[Blondie]

precisely...and DS has manifestly failed at that. Name for me one "PRINCIPLE" DS has imprinted upon this organization.....JUST ONE!

Clarify for us all what that "organizational direction"...that..."way of being" that is uniquely and identifiably Dan Snyder might be. You can't.....he's still "learning something from Gibbs" 10 years into his tenure. I could even buy into that were there something bedrock and immutable about that man himself that just needed some kneading...a little scalpel action to shve off the rough edges. but it's more profound than that...the man himslef lacks the attributes of great leadership. look at him. listen to him...he can't even get through a simple press conference without deadpanning uninformative, uninspiring, unreflective platitudes. and when we does...as we just saw...there is no real content behind it......no commitment...NOTHING YOU CAN TRUST OR BELIEVE IN.

The Skins may very well win...let us hope they do. None of us should be confused about one thing....no one will ever refer to DS as "The Bard" or identitfy him as a man who stands above the fray....someone whose character itself inspires respect and a desire to emulate. he's just another rich businessman.......

Oh Al. We see things differently.

I love this team. I want it to do well. But, I wont ever go ballistic over the hiring of a coach. I will watch, listen, and form an opinion based what I see.

Yes, he is a rich business man. And I wish I had that kind of money. Would it change me? I imagine. Oh, I know. If YOU had that kind of money YOU would not ever be changed. But, I cant say that I would not be somewhat different. Actually, the one thing I like about THE DAN is the one thing most of yall ***** about........his loyalty to his guy Vinny. Like it or not, he has shown loyalty to him.

You say he is "still learning for Gibbs" 10 years from the beginning. Yes he is...and I, for one, am very GLAD that it IS Gibbs he is learning from. Has he made mistakes. Yes....and I now hope these last 4 years have been of benefit.

I am not going to debate you Al. You want to rant and rave.....and "boo" the coach. I am not into that type of behavior.

So you go ahead and "boo". You stop buying tickets and merchandise. You get the boycott organized so people wont be in their seats at the start of the game. Do what YOU need to do to make YOURSELF feel better.

And I will do what I need to do. I will fly half way across the country 8 games a year to see the team I love.

It is what it is. And what it is....is a difference of perspective.

[fansince62]

No. I think we're quite good at flexibility and adaptability and we're actually showing that here. If we legitimately accomplish the retention of almost the entire coaching staff and the hiring of a "new offensive mind" like Zorn, clearly they've gone out, listened to people they've been talking to and been working the system as effectively and efficiently as they can given they were dropped in to that situation so quickly. There is no holy grail hire in this batch.

Cowher, ok, maybe.

Mooch, ok, probably not.

Grimm is feel good. Frankly, so is Williams. Hell, one can not factually argue that Williams is a better head coach than Fassel. We hate Fassel, no doubt, but, he's more accomplished in the top job than Williams has been. I don't know that it'll be Fassel, of course, just saying.

let me rephrase somewhat...flexibility and adaptability while still keeping to the same set of goals and objectives. I can agree that this problem fell in their laps - they didn't create it...though they should have known it was coming this year or the next and given some "what if" reflection to the matter IMO....that's what leaders do.

the fcat remains that the public statements at the outset were entirely undercut by subsequent actions. and I don't buy into the idea that retaining the subordinants on defense equates to "continuity" or minimal change. Williams was the architect. It was his brainchild, his planning, his ability to spar with OCs that was on display every Sunday. That will have to change come next September. FOr all we know things may get better....the point is it won't be the same...there may be a gain...but there is also a cost.

let us hope we luck through all of this. my core reaction...as you can read elsewhere in this thread...is that there is nothing about DS himself that inpsires one to think "no fear...DS is here. We will see our way through to the other end." Let us all hope that he has improved enough in his understanding of the NFL - and group leadership - that the team can survive through to a new golden age of Redskin football that he inspires.

[wysknz1]

Sorry I got in a bit late/ I also don't feel like reading through 6 pages. So, if this has been mentioned ignor me or point me in the right direction.

I know it was only one play and it got little press, but, do yuou think the missing man formation vs Buffalo had anything to do with the preceived Williams dissing of Gibbs? You know, when JG said he didn't know that the D was going to do that.

Just a thought on what could've been GW's demise.

[fansince62]

Sorry I got in a bit late/ I also don't feel like reading through 6 pages. So, if this has been mentioned ignor me or point me in the right direction.

I know it was only one play and it got little press, but, do yuou think the missing man formation vs Buffalo had anything to do with the preceived Williams dissing of Gibbs? You know, when JG said he didn't know that the D was going to do that.

Just a thought on what could've been GW's demise.

wow! so one play undercuts 3 years of top 10 defense?

[Hooper]

I think Danny wants Cerrato to have more power than whoever the head coach is and Williams would never go along with that.

Much of our fate rests in the hands of a man who didn't get ONE JOB INTERVIEW after Marty kicked him to the curb. A man who according to several quoted NFL executives is the joke of the league. A man who according to several Redskin beat reporters doesn't have the respect of one redskin player.

I hope Vinny proves them and me wrong.

Hail.

[Blondie]

Except he made Vinny the GM

And for me.........there is a good point to that change also.

He is very loyal to his friend. He has NOT thrown him under the bus.

People complain that THE DAN is not loyal........"why would any coach want to come here....there is no loyalty". I see the Vinny thing as very loyal. For what ever the reason.

We have NO idea what the issues have been between GW and THE DAN. I know the fans, wanted him, and the players that gave a sound byte said they wanted him.

I wonder if SOME players didnt do a sound byte because they DIDNT want him to be the head coach?

[nneece]

It is not always the case I understand or agree with concepts or actions the team may consider or execute on. I did not really understand the move for Archuleta. I thought Briggs was a bad move at the rumored cost. There are other examples. In each case, where I disagreed with something, I tried to think, "What rationale would make this move be reasonable and understandable by the people making it."

Though some of us think it, these are not rash men............

You speak the truth.

[Hooper]

Danny is only loyal to Vinny because he is a classic yes man and great cover for Danny's fantasy football ways. Oh, how much better off the skins would be if Danny would trade some of that "loyalty" for a personnel guy that wasn't the biggest joke in the league.

[nneece]

And for me.........there is a good point to that change also.

He is very loyal to his friend. He has NOT thrown him under the bus.

People complain that THE DAN is not loyal........"why would any coach want to come here....there is no loyalty". I see the Vinny thing as very loyal. For what ever the reason.

We have NO idea what the issues have been between GW and THE DAN. I know the fans, wanted him, and the players that gave a sound byte said they wanted him.

I wonder if SOME players didnt do a sound byte because they DIDNT want him to be the head coach?

This franchise needs a FO person or GM who knows football and will make the correct decisions even if at times it is not what Snyder would like to do. little danny is not that man. He is Danny's Yes Man.

[fansince62]

Oh Al. We see things differently.

I love this team. I want it to do well. But, I wont ever go ballistic over the hiring of a coach. I will watch, listen, and form an opinion based what I see.

Yes, he is a rich business man. And I wish I had that kind of money. Would it change me? I imagine. Oh, I know. If YOU had that kind of money YOU would not ever be changed. But, I cant say that I would not be somewhat different. Actually, the one thing I like about THE DAN is the one thing most of yall ***** about........his loyalty to his guy Vinny. Like it or not, he has shown loyalty to him.

You say he is "still learning for Gibbs" 10 years from the beginning. Yes he is...and I, for one, am very GLAD that it IS Gibbs he is learning from. Has he made mistakes. Yes....and I now hope these last 4 years have been of benefit.

I am not going to debate you Al. You want to rant and rave.....and "boo" the coach. I am not into that type of behavior.

So you go ahead and "boo". You stop buying tickets and merchandise. You get the boycott organized so people wont be in their seats at the start of the game. Do what YOU need to do to make YOURSELF feel better.

And I will do what I need to do. I will fly half way across the country 8 games a year to see the team I love.

It is what it is. And what it is....is a difference of perspective.

Hey Blondie....I encourage you to support your favorite team if it adds to your quality of life, sense of self and if it somehow creates meaning/value for you. I have no problems with that.

In the end....I don't really care about the coaching staff decisions either. One thing is certain...coaching in the NFL these days - with rare exceptions - is not an occupation for which longevity is a hallmark. we will get a new set of coaches and a new direction. fine by me.

it's DS himself who is the key weak link. there is nothing inspiring about the man. that may not bother you and that is fine. I have been around powerful people most of my adult life..the sorts who are in the papers every day.....and had the opportunity to see what makes for a great leader....what inspires people to work toward what in the end must invariably be achieved collaboratively with a shared sense of values and willingness to submerge private ambitions for collective good. DS isn't that kind of leader. he's going to have to buy that. we are all still waiting for him to stumble on the right and true leader to issue his checks to.

so...yea...we can yet again get on the hope treadmill and trust that still more change will lead to the yellow brick road. that is a pyschologically reasonable thing to do...one I will land up following myself come next preseason - we will all be there thinking "will it work this time?!"

but...I can keep an eye on the higher principles in play. it never hurts to add in a pinch of honesty and reflection now and then.

[nneece]

I think Williams lack of ability when picking players doomed him in the end. Great coordinator, bad head coach. Unfortunate, but probably true.

GW will get a chance to HC in this league again. Not this year, but at some point. GW was a hot name about 3 years ago. Then the D tanked last season and his name died down. He will arise again.

[Art]

I think Danny wants Cerrato to have more power than whoever the head coach is and Williams would never go along with that.

Much of our fate rests in the hands of a man who didn't get ONE JOB INTERVIEW after Marty kicked him to the curb. A man who according to several quoted NFL executives is the joke of the league. A man who according to several Redskin beat reporters doesn't have the respect of one redskin player.

I hope Vinny proves them and me wrong.

Hail.

I'd be willing to bet real money Vinny won't have more power than the next coach. I will bet he'll work collaboratively with the coach charting a universal team grade on each player.

[SittingBull]

I agree with you on most points, but do you really think that Snyder was unprepared for Gibbs retirement? I'm not saying it didn't come as a suprise to him but he really doesn't form any kind of contingency plan from year to year? Gibbs is 67 years old and I don't care if he swore on a stack of bibles that he'll fulfill his contract you have to be prepared for not only him deciding to retire, but health and family problems he could potentially have.

I really don't know what is scarier though. That Snyder was completely unprepared for Gibbs retirement and didn't come up with a plan until after the announcement or that he actually did have a plan and what has transpired is the outcome...

[bucksaver]

I've known Spags for a long time and think he would be a great coach, I just can't imagine a team hiring a former defensive coordinator as their head coach and having him inherit an already hired defensive coordinator(Blache). Spags would want his own defense installed here and his own people to run that defense. There is no way he would even take the job if that was the hand he was dealt. And remember, he hasn't been interviewed yet, so he didn't sign off on Blache first. If the defensive staff is being left in place as has been reported the new head coach will be an offensive minded coach.

By the same logic, no offensive minded coach will want to come in with a coordinator already in place. He will want to run the offense and hire his staff. I don't disagree with your point, I just wonder what kind of coach, offensive or defensive, would want to come into such a screwed up situation. Perhaps the plan is for Dan himself to coach the team.

[Skinsinparadise]

I still cant figure out why everyone here hates Fassel. Dude is a proven good coach. The "he was fired by his best friend" thing is ridiculous. Billick is convinced he is the smartest Offensive mind ever. And even this genius could not make Baltimore's offense work. Sure they improved their offensive rankings after Fassel was fired, but only for a few games...and then they went right back to being crap. That offense's failings do not fall at Fassel's feet. I like Fassel and before Gibbs appeared out of nowhere, he was who I wanted to replace Spurrier. I think he is a good hire. We will have two guys known for bringing up young QBs working with our young QB. This is a smart move guys...you will see.

Fassel just smells to me and other people on this board as Mr. Mediocrity.

He has never had consecutive winning seasons

his overall record is just slightly above 500.

His last year he finished 4-12 -- and the media's rap on him was his team quit on him.

His one coordinator job with the Ravens didn't work out.

If this guy is such a good coach how come no one in the NFL wants to give him now a chance as a coordinator nevermind head coach. And think about it who has been more in demand both as a coordinator and head coach since they were fired: Norv Turner or Jim Fassel? Norv Turner wins that one hands down. That doesn't spook you but it does spook me.

From Wikipedia: his legacy as head coach for the Giants is mixed. Fassel's Giants were known for their disappointments against inferior teams in the regular season, as well as in the playoffs. The most notable loss was a shocking 39-38 loss to the San Francisco 49ers in the 2002 postseason.

[Stadium-Armory]

The FO is looking bad becaue they are bad. I know you are a huge Vinny supporter but it is clear that this FO has no clue on how to handle anything.

So was it 3 or 4 interviews for GW and then you don't talk to him after what 10 days??? Then go off and secretly interview other candidates.

Heck even Fassel is saying that they used him, and I have a feeling they used him on information on who they should hire, see Zorn. If

I think I'm somewhere betwen you and Art. While I can recognize that they've adapted pretty well, our FO doesn't execute like an A+ group. They're somewhere around C+. Trying hard, but sort of thrashing about, learning as they go.

The A+ shops make it look easy. Whether its football, politics, business, or whatever. They ponder the unexpected. They think a couple moves ahead, considering different scenarios. They protect them selves, and their organization from the unexpected. And they do it with class and confidence (see Indianapolis).

And even if it were true that this search is being conducted with precision, behind closed doors, and all of the hype is just media swirl - I STILL expect a great leader to protect their organization from that. Recognize the balance between transparency and privacy. Just be confident, lead, and people will follow you.

Anyway, its his perogative to manage his privately held business as he sees fit.

[Blondie]

Hey Blondie....I encourage you to support your favorite team if it adds to your quality of life, sense of self and if it somehow creates meaning/value for you. I have no problems with that.

In the end....I don't really care about the coaching staff decisions either. One thing is certain...coaching in the NFL these days - with rare exceptions - is not an occupation for which longevity is a hallmark. we will get a new set of coaches and a new direction. fine by me.

it's DS himself who is the key weak link. there is nothing inspiring about the man. that may not bother you and that is fine. I have been around powerful people most of my adult life..the sorts who are in the papers every day.....and had the opportunity to see what makes for a great leader....what inspires people to work toward what in the end must invariably be achieved collaboratively with a shared sense of values and willingness to submerge private ambitions for collective good. DS isn't that kind of leader. he's going to have to buy that. we are all still waiting for him to stumble on the right and true leader to issue his checks to.

so...yea...we can yet again get on the hope treadmill and trust that still more change will lead to the yellow brick road. that is a pyschologically reasonable thing to do...one I will land up following myself come next preseason - we will all be there thinking "will it work this time?!"

but...I can keep an eye on the higher principles in play. it never hurts to add in a pinch of honesty and reflection now and then.

So, you are going to "keep an eye on the higher principles in play." You are looking for honesty and relection. So, being honest and reflecting on yourself.........I have a question.

While you are keeping this eye on the higher principles in play........is this when you will be booing the coach?

[Hooper]

I'd be willing to bet real money Vinny won't have more power than the next coach. I will bet he'll work collaboratively with the coach charting a universal team grade on each player.

And I'll bet that after the next head coach gets canned -- two years tops -- Vinny is still here. And after the next head coach after that gets canned -- two more years tops -- Vinny will still be here.

Who has been the most consistent presence since Danny bought the team and has overseen a decade or so of losing more games than what, four or five other teams in the league? It ain't a coach or a player.

It's Vinny.