Time for my thoughts (bumped post from Jan. 2008) MET.

[KingGibbs]

I won't feel good about the choice when it comes out. I did feel good about Marty and Spurrier and Gibbs though. None worked out totally great. Maybe the coaching change I have the most trouble with will be the one that does. At least that is the hope we all have to have .

Art. I agree with everything you said (newsflash:hell has frozen over ) and the the last paragraph that I quoted is indeed all we can hope for. I would love to see a coach come in and surprise all of us.

I've also been thinking that perhaps Gibbs leaving unexpectedly is karma taking a big bite out of Snyder's ass for all of the people he mistreated from:

All of the employees he fired when he took over ownership.

Sending vanilla ice cream to Nolan's room (even though I can't stand Nolan.)

Firing Marty even though he only had one year and was clearly building on something.

Playing with the team as if it were Madden by signing "sexy" names even though they were clearly past their prime.

Karma is a ***** isn't it Danny boy?

[Stadium-Armory]

..and had the opportunity to see what makes for a great leader....what inspires people to work toward what in the end must invariably be achieved collaboratively with a shared sense of values and willingness to submerge private ambitions for collective good. DS isn't that kind of leader. he's going to have to buy that. we are all still waiting for him to stumble on the right and true leader to issue his checks to.

Agreed. Great leadership is an edge in the NFL, make no mistake about it. And it starts in the owners box, trickles down to the FO, and so on. In a league where little seperates the teams, great managers can provide a clear bump to the organization. And I think at the top, we're about a C+. Which is about what our on the field product has been. Don't think there isn't a connection.

[KingGibbs]

So, you are going to "keep an eye on the higher principles in play." You are looking for honesty and relection. So, being honest and reflecting on yourself.........I have a question.

While you are keeping this eye on the higher principles in play........is this when you will be booing the coach?

Unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast. It's what fans do when they are as passionate as 'skins fans are. Is it right? Probably not. This is exactly why Danny boy would be smart to hire a young, unproven coach such as Schwartz and Spags. Another way to go would be to hire someone that fans could relate to such as Grimm. Fans would be more forgiven with those coaches. Fassel has no chance here.

I know some of you think it's not about the fans, but if you think having a stadium of 90,00 diehards booing doesn't affect players you either haven't played competitive sports or you are delusional. (Not directed towards you Blondie)

[21dave]

Well said as usual Art. I agree with the points you raise regarding loyalty, it seems the only person who consistently displayed loyalty was Coach Gibbs, ie sticking with Brunell, taking the blame for losses, sticking up for Sean when he went through some of the off the field incidents.

[Blondie]

Unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast. It's what fans do when they are as passionate as 'skins fans are. Is it right? Probably not. This is exactly why Danny boy would be smart to hire a young, unproven coach such as Schwartz and Spags. Another way to go would be to hire someone that fans could relate to such as Grimm. Fans would be more forgiven with those coaches. Fassel has no chance here.

I know some of you think it's not about the fans, but if you think having a stadium of 90,00 diehards booing doesn't affect players you either haven't played competitive sports or you are delusional. (Not directed towards you Blondie)

Dear lord.

Effect the players. Is that the RESULTS you are looking for? THE PLAYERS think you are booing them?

I find booing so juvenile. (Not directed at you KG.)

[nneece]

Unfortunately, it's the nature of the beast. It's what fans do when they are as passionate as 'skins fans are. Is it right? Probably not. This is exactly why Danny boy would be smart to hire a young, unproven coach such as Schwartz and Spags. Another way to go would be to hire someone that fans could relate to such as Grimm. Fans would be more forgiven with those coaches. Fassel has no chance here.

I know some of you think it's not about the fans, but if you think having a stadium of 90,00 diehards booing doesn't affect players you either haven't played competitive sports or you are delusional. (Not directed towards you Blondie)

This franchise is very fortunate to have a passionate fan base who support their team. Not all franchises in the NFL have such luck. Screw around with it too much and you may find yourself in the company of an Atlanta, Detroit, etc. Let's see how those season tickets sell this year in Atlanta- something I would not want to see happen in Washington but I think this franchise is 1 more do over from that scenario.

[KingGibbs]

Dear lord.

Effect the players. Is that the RESULTS you are looking for? THE PLAYERS think you are booing them?

I find booing so juvenile. (Not directed at you KG.)

I agree. you know me I don't boo my team. But, what I meant by affecting the players is when they here the negative reaction towards their coach it most likely has an adverse perception of how they feel about that coach. :2cents:

[TD Riggo]

Pretty much the same feelings I have Art. Except you can definitely saythat I was never "in the tank" for Grilliams. I DID think that he was the right choice at this time though.

So, as the saying goes: "Time heals all wounds," I guess. Except maybe in the case of Snyder y Cerrato, it might be more: "Time wounds all heels!"

[fansince62]

So, you are going to "keep an eye on the higher principles in play." You are looking for honesty and relection. So, being honest and reflecting on yourself.........I have a question.

While you are keeping this eye on the higher principles in play........is this when you will be booing the coach?

if if serves as balm for your tortured soul...I will not boo the next coach....even a mediocrity no one else wants. I understand the real thrust you are making about me and the players and I suppose I opened myself up to that with one post I made earlier. there is the notion, of course, that booing the Skins might really be directed at the ownership. but, true blue diehard that you are, I can understand how you might find any notion of booing offensive....and you are probably right on that small point.

that's fine and I suppose I earned that little parry. so long as we are all assured that you have no standards when it comes to the real man in charge..."he's learning" (what, pray tell, is he learning after 10 years OJT).....we can all sleep comfortably tonight when our heads hit the pillow.

[fansince62]

Dear lord.

Effect the players. Is that the RESULTS you are looking for? THE PLAYERS think you are booing them?

I find booing so juvenile. (Not directed at you KG.)

nothing like zeroing in like a laser on the essentials!!!!

one hopes you care as much and are as energetic about other things in life as you are about the Skins and your lifeline to the team....speaking about motivation, character and all....... (not directed at you KG)....

[duenni]

As for FA signings (more likely influenced by Williams) there are more failures than successes.

Williams felt we could live without Pierce, but wanted Barrow(one down, even one down? No, not one down.), and Holdman(felt pretty strongly about him over Arrington too) He let Smoot go (only to have a severe DB need in the following year). He certainly was behind Archuleta. He also thought we could live with Marshall in the middle and without Clark in the backfield. He wanted Wright as a nickel DB(that worked out well), and probably led to the debacle known as Mike Rumph.

Who's fault is that?

so if you think the draft was run by cerrato gibbs, then the FA signings were run by cerrato and gibbs as well, makes more sence than all of a sudden williams has these calls!!! :doh:

[Blondie]

I agree. you know me I don't boo my team. But, what I meant by affecting the players is when they here the negative reaction towards their coach it most likely has an adverse perception of how they feel about that coach. :2cents:

I don't think the players are going to base their perception of the coach on the fans.

Period.

They KNOW the coach up close and personal...they know what he knows, how he reacts to them....how they "feel" in the game with him.

If people who really DON'T KNOW the coach can effect their perception, I see a problem.

[SearchHorizon]

EDIT: double post.

[SearchHorizon]

- DS does not have a controlling vision when wearing his Redskin hat; wanting to win badly isn't enough...you have to have a vision and you have to be able to get people to buy into and support that vision. since DS has been here.....there has been no real Redskin "identity". JG moved things in the direction of some basics such as character and team unity.....but DS is in the process of swiftly undercutting all of that. When I think of DS and his tenure...I can't think of a SINGLE positive, unique stamp he has placed on this team. Ultimately, there is nothing in his character, his makeup, his approach to life...that transcends the tawdry business aspects of professional football and imprints itself on the team and the organization. there is nothing in Dan Snyder as a man that imbues the Redskin organization with pride, identity...sense of self. His stewardship has every appearance of a drunken man's walk.

I agree with this.

I believe that one of the easiest ways to guage if a person is a leader is by asking this question: "If you were in a position to work with this person, would you want to go extra few yards to help this person succeed?"

I can imagine myself feeling that way about Gibbs.

I cannot say the same thing about Dan.

[Blondie]

if if serves as balm for your tortured soul...I will not boo the next coach....even a mediocrity no one else wants. I understand the real thrust you are making about me and the players and I suppose I opened myself up to that with one post I made earlier. there is the notion, of course, that booing the Skins might really be directed at the ownership. but, true blue diehard that you are, I can understand how you might find any notion of booing offensive....and you are probably right on that small point.

that's fine and I suppose I earned that little parry. so long as we are all assured that you have no standards when it comes to the real man in charge..."he's learning" (what, pray tell, is he learning after 10 years OJT).....we can all sleep comfortably tonight when our heads hit the pillow.

:applause: :applause:

We are cool.

[wysknz1]

wow! so one play undercuts 3 years of top 10 defense?

I'm just suggesting.

I've seen it happen at my job. And everyone is talking about how arrogant DS is.

So I think it's a legit question.

edit: No my job is not football related, but people are still people no matter the task.

[Birdlives]

so if you think the draft was run by cerrato gibbs, then the FA signings were run by cerrato and gibbs as well, makes more sence than all of a sudden williams has these calls!!! :doh:

Not exactly what I said, but don't let that stop you from taking it and running.

[jrockster21]

I won't feel good about the choice when it comes out. I did feel good about Marty and Spurrier and Gibbs though. None worked out totally great. Maybe the coaching change I have the most trouble with will be the one that does. At least that is the hope we all have to have .

You felt GOOD about Spurrier? :laugh: Eff that. Marty was on a roll.

I think Williams lack of ability when picking players doomed him in the end. Great coordinator, bad head coach. Unfortunate, but probably true.

He missed on one player. :laugh: He's been good on the rest of them.

[Birdlives]

He missed on one player. :laugh: He's been good on the rest of them.

Not exactly what I said, but don't let that stop you from taking it and running.

Makes it easier. Now I can just add a .

[isle-hawg]

As always Art, your posts are well thought out and good reads.

[Santana Clause]

The most disturbing thing about Fossil is his age, no pun intended. The Bellichick comparisons are invalid because when he screwed up he was much younger. By the time Fossil would get this thing clicking he would be near the age of retirement for most head coaches. I think this is the most underargued point of all this crap.

With Snyder, there is never a line of succession (Zorn is 54). There isn't a pipeline. There are only stale ideas from guys at or near the end. If this team is really "close" you keep the staffs relatively consisten and go for it. If the team isn't close, you hire someone who is young and can grow into being the leader of this team for a long time to come. Snyder is somewhere in the middle with this "alleged" hire and it makes no sense whatsoever.

[freefalln]

i just hope that whoever it is is 'super smart', will 'lay their guts out', and above all is a 'true redskin', because nothing else matters around here...continuity..gesh, give me a break

[voicekiller]

I'd be willing to bet real money Vinny won't have more power than the next coach. I will bet he'll work collaboratively with the coach charting a universal team grade on each player.

I would bet on that too...

[Skinsinparadise]

So for me this is just a tragic, sickening feeling. The psychology of the team can't be great right now. It may be softened by the returning number of coaches, or it may lose respect for them if they feel those guys were disloyal to Williams. I don't know.

I can relate to that feeling big time. And I am not one of the guys on the board who always comes down on Snyder and the FO, I think and still do that many if not most of their personnel moves have been good ones under Gibbs 2.

But yeah what's going on now has taken all the spirit away from me at least for the moment and will for awhile about the upcoming season. I've gone from being jazzed thinking we are only a few players from being a serious Superbowl contender -- to we are going to be 8-8 at best. That's one heck of an emotional shift for me.

It sort of stinks to watch this team devolve from the feel good story of the league to the laughing stock of it all in the span of a couple of weeks.

While Gibbs tenure was far from perfect there was a nice spirit for the most part to his run, culminating with the end of last season. Gibbs almost seemed content to leave partly becuase he thought everything was in place for the current regime to take off from where they finished last season -- but that whole vibe now is gone.

Gibbs and Gregg who were arguably the biggest nexus to the team as to the Taylor incident -- are now gone -- so the spirit of the run at the end of the season will be foreign to whomever takes over.

Blache am sure will be decent but clearly the league doesn't consider him the equal of Gregg Williams.

Zorn will be learning on the job how to be an offensive coordinator since its a new gig for him NFL wise. Jason is now going to have to learn an entirely new offense. And if that's not really a big deal, how come Jason has said over and over again that it is a big deal for him to stick in a system for awhile and lobbied hard to keep Saunders.

OK so a step back possible on defense though I doubt a dramatic one -- a step back in all likelihood on offense at least for the first year but I can swallow that if Zorn is as good with QBs as some say.

That leaves the HQ. Jim Fassel the guy who hasn't been even remotely as hot as a coaching propsect as Norv Turner has been -- after they both have been fired at their respective jobs. As a coordinator with the Ravens his offense was miserable and no team has touched him since. Think about it -- Norv has stayed at least on some teams radar screens as a head coaching prospect and has been hired whereas Jim Fassel hasn't.

With him at the head the Giants never had consecutive winning seasons -- you hear Giants long for the Fassel years? OK so we are going after a coach that the Giants dumped and no one else in the NFL is clamoring for. He's 58 years old so not exactly a spring chicken coach on the rise, either.

Yeah maybe Fassel can turn it around now at the ripe age of 58 and become a good head coach -- but going with him over Williams because he's personable and engaging in an interview seems like a depressing move to me.

If I were in his shoes, heck if no NFL team was considering me as a coodinator never mind head coach -- and the Washington Redskins called me and asked me to be interviewed for a head coaching job, boy I'd prepare for the interview of my life. But as one of the articles pointed out do you want to hire someone who is a good interview or a good head coach?

The idea of Gregg and Joe being gone for the Fassel era is real hard to swallow. OK so we got a retread coach pushing 60 who was dumped by our division rivals, and Baltimore, no one else wants even for lower positions on the coaching scale -- its realy tough for me to get excited about it.

And what a come down from one heck of a year for this team. And I can just imagine how the players would react to Fassel -- I doubt there will be much thankfully Gregg Williams is gone or heck if we are going to lose Gregg we can swallow it since we will be playing for the legendary Jim Fassel -- we've always want to play for that guy -- we hear he's amazing.

The best way for me to sum it up is my feeling has shifted from hope to apprehension.

[chief_redskin_fan]

excellent, even-keeled post

Snyder, the self-proclaimed marketing genius, the guy who peddles entertainment and ultimately emotion, should then realize he has lost his market

hope sells

apprehension and disgust doesn't