Pope: Other Christians not true churches

[The Sisko]

Now why am I not surprised that MSF is a pagan???? I guess it fits in the all the Renfest stuff. Regardless, I don't think it's any worse than the monotheistic religions with all their contradictions and conundrums.

For the sake of balance, back when I was a Muslim I went to a Southern Baptist church with a friend and was amazed to hear the minister actually say "Now friends, don't take this the wrong way. But that Catholicism is of the devil." I really, really had to fight the urge to stand up and ask him out loud, "If that's the case, then I guess as a Muslim I'm Satan himself."

Ultimately the absurdity of the whole "my God's better than your God" thing just turned me off. Nowadays I'd much rather check out that beer volcano...and don't forget the strippers. Now THAT I could get really get into.

[AsburySkinsFan]

It also says faith without works is dead. You see, it's just as easy for a Catholic to tear down Protestant ideaology too.

I hope you don't think that tears down protestant theology, if you do then you simply don't understand protestant theology, or at least Wesleyan theology.

[AsburySkinsFan]

This is where the whole issue of apostolic succession comes from:

Matthew 16:15-18

He said to them, "But who do you say that I am?" 16 Simon Peter answered, "You are the Messiah, the Son of the living God." 17 And Jesus answered him, "Blessed are you, Simon son of Jonah! For flesh and blood has not revealed this to you, but my Father in heaven. 18 And I tell you, you are Peter, and on this rock I will build my church, and the gates of Hades will not prevail against it.

The Pope reads this and says, "Ah Jesus says that Peter is the rock upon which the church is built thus the need for apostolic succession."

Whereas I as a Protestant reads this same passage and it is clear to me that it is not Peter that is the rock that the church will be built upon but instead upon the truth in Peter's confession that Jesus is the Messiah, the Son of the living God, and as such the church is defined by the confession and not by the succession. Thus we hold as brothers and sisters of all those who share our confession as members of Christ's body, the Church.

This is what this whole thing comes down to boys and girls.

[Cdowwe]

I have to listen to this stuff all day at work from this co worker. Shes catholic and puts down all other forms of Christianity. Not really in a mean way, shes just ditzy.

Its surprising to me that a great number of Catholics I come across dont even know Protestants are Christians.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Its surprising to me that a great number of Catholics I come across dont even know Protestants are Christians.

Didn't you get the memo, apparently we aren't.:laugh:

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Now why am I not surprised that MSF is a pagan???? I guess it fits in the all the Renfest stuff. Regardless, I don't think it's any worse than the monotheistic religions with all their contradictions and conundrums.

Actually the medieval interests have nothing to do with my religious preferences, Yusuf. It's nothing more than a coincidence actually. However I would like to thank you for the kind words regarding my choice.

[81artmonk]

The major problem I have with the catholic church, is is places too much power in the hands of the church, as if they have the power to absolve sin. According to the bible we are all Gods servants if we believe. No one person has sway over another. As I see it, the Pope holds too much power where he acually has none!

Plus it bases too much emphesis on works. What you do. Since we are all sinners and can never reach heaven by what we do, that seems impossible. It also runs into that church power thing again.

[Levi1]

I couldn't care less either way, but, as some have pointed out, this is nothing new at all. Since they were one of the first churches they have always held that there is only "one catholic and apostolic church ( or something to that effect)." It is said in literally every Mass.

But i tend to side with the flying spaghetti monster.

[Destino]

Plus it bases too much emphesis on works. What you do. Since we are all sinners and can never reach heaven by what we do, that seems impossible.

This is the only reason I remain a Catholic. The more I think about the down play of works the more it looks like a corruption of the word of God. Works is what Jesus points to when he describes judgement. The message could be no more clear. Grace is the only reason we have a shot at all as no human can ever be perfect, but Jesus tells us that many are invited but few make the cut.

This idea that everyone is good enough and that all it takes is to accept Jesus into your life seems like a cruel trick when I read what Jesus said. It's completely out of line with his description of judgement in matthew. Then again maybe that's the point. Who knows. I'm wary of anyone selling the idea that doing good on earth isn't as important as Jesus says it is.

Also why aren't more of you addressing the fact that protestant faiths are no different then this pope has decided to be. Catholics aren't exactly welcomed as fellow Christians.

[JMS]

I have to listen to this stuff all day at work from this co worker. Shes catholic and puts down all other forms of Christianity. Not really in a mean way, shes just ditzy.

Its surprising to me that a great number of Catholics I come across don't even know Protestants are Christians.

It's a little unfair to paint all Catholics by our lowest common denominator. Most Catholics know Protestants are Christians. Vatican council II even validated Protestantism. It's just that many Catholics use the word Christian interchangeable with Catholic, because the church and religous ed does so.

Being Catholic is a little bit like being an American. Doesn't make one any less American to be a critic of the President. John Paul was a very young and conservative Pope when he was elected. Pope Benedict is even more conservative. When your church is more than a thousand years old, you endure leaders like this.

Try not to take offense. He hasn't called for a purification inquisition; nor has he unleashed the albino clerics.

[70th Week]

This is the only reason I remain a Catholic. The more I think about the down play of works the more it looks like a corruption of the word of God. Works is what Jesus points to when he describes judgement. The message could be no more clear. Grace is the only reason we have a shot at all as no human can ever be perfect, but Jesus tells us that many are invited but few make the cut.

Paul puts it like this:

Romans 3

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

There is no amount of deeds or works we can do to repay Jesus for what he has done for us....we all sin and come short......The works of the law are now done away with because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

[headexplode]

I hate to point out to the pope that God himself said "I am the way, the truth and the light!

"He could as easily have said, 'I am King **** of **** Mountain--why would you **** with Me?'"----The Hon. Rev. Winton Dupree

[codeorama]

I've said this many times... "Christians" cannot agree among themselves who is actually going to be saved and who is not.

[chomerics]

Try not to take offense. He hasn't called for a purification inquisition; nor has he unleashed the albino clerics.

lmao. . .

my favorite saying is growing up in the Catholic Church left a sour taste in my mouth. . .

Their rules and regs were way WAY to stringent for me, and as a good example for the problems with the religion, I will tell a little story of a friend I was out with last night.

Well, she waited until she was 35 to be married because she wanted to make sure she married the right person. Well her "lying cheating husband" as she puts it crushed her by sleeping with her friend less than a month after they were married. What did she do? She went to church many a night and cried to God because she wanted to know why God did this to her. It wasn't until after about 6 months of doing this that she finally started to get it, but that is what the church makes us believe. The Catholic guilt is something only Jews can relate to, and anytime something goes wrong in our lives, it is because of something we did.

Well, there is nothing like a good talk with an Atheist (me) to help show her the light What I talked to her about last night was how everything in life is not pre-ordained. I explained to her that the future is in our hands and not Gods. If you allow God to lead your life, you will die a lonely woman. It's no coincidence that a lot of old maids are very religious. I told her that we can not control others actions, and we shouldn't worry about what they do. The only thing we have control over is our own actions in life, and if we don't like the path we are on, we have the ability to change the rudder of the ship. Catholicism teaches the opposite, as everything in our life is set by God, and we are just pawns in his large game of life chess. It does more to hurt people in terms of growth, ans problem solving then it helps.

The Draconian and outdated laws have made people run from the church, and they will continue to do so. The conservative approach of the pope will only further isolate the RCC from the mainstream, which IMO is a good thing. I think the RCC will fade into oblivion by the turn of the next century. I only hope that I am around to see the church fade into oblivion.

[fwo40]

Indiana let it go.....

Let it go...

[Corcaigh]

No news here.

Go to a Honda dealership and ask them to tell you all the merits of Toyota cars.

[ldysknzfn1]

I think it's interesting to see all the different views and interpretations of the Bible. I've always thought it fascinating for so many people to get such different interps when reading the same text in the Bible. I'll admit that I don't understand it all and I try not to point the finger so to speak at other beliefs thinking they are wrong. I only know and stand by what I believe. I don't think Catholic followers are evil and I try to listen and understand what they believe. I just don't choose to believe that. Doesn't make us(me & catholics)right or wrong. I look at the Faith/Works debate in this way:

While Jesus said "I am the truth, the way and the light and no one comes unto the Father but by me", and that We(Gentiles) are justified by Faith and saved by Grace...I don't think that works are totally dismissed in this whole thing. All that it takes for salvation(in my understanding)is to profess belief in Jesus and what he did on the cross, and that he arose 3 days later and now sits on the right hand of God making intercessions for us....but there's also the faith w/o works is dead thing. I believe this statement mean essentially, if a person professes belief in Christ and all that he stood for and did, there should be a change in said person....We don't do what we used to do. We're new creatures in Christ..Old things have passed away. I think the faith w/o works deal is Jesus' way of telling us that if you believe in Me and claim to follow my ways..then you should do the things that I taught you to do. I don't think works will be dismissed on any level. IF you are saved, accept Christ's teachings and are trying to live as closely to his teachings as possible..then the works come w/that. You should WANT to do the things Jesus taught. In other words...your works speak for you. This is how my Pastor puts it sometimes..."Your talk talks...your walk talks..and if your talk talks more than your walk...you have a problem". If you have FAITH in Christ as your saviour...people will know it by your walk on this earth. To know right and not do it is sin. That's how it makes sense to me. Didn't say it will makes sense to others when explained like this..but this is MY understanding of the faith/works "debate".

[endzone_dave]

This is the only reason I remain a Catholic. The more I think about the down play of works the more it looks like a corruption of the word of God. Works is what Jesus points to when he describes judgement. The message could be no more clear. Grace is the only reason we have a shot at all as no human can ever be perfect, but Jesus tells us that many are invited but few make the cut.

This idea that everyone is good enough and that all it takes is to accept Jesus into your life seems like a cruel trick when I read what Jesus said. It's completely out of line with his description of judgement in matthew. Then again maybe that's the point. Who knows. I'm wary of anyone selling the idea that doing good on earth isn't as important as Jesus says it is.

QUOTE]

Very well said!

Luke 13:24 "Strive to enter through the narrow door; for many, I tell you, will seek to enter and will not be able."

[70th Week]

Faith without works is dead? How about we examine the context of that verse without just pulling one verse from the bible and making it doctrine.

James 2:

18Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.

20But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

21Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?

verse 20 is the one in question. But look at verse 18. James said by his faith he would have works, not works alone....He said if he had faith then he would have works. If you are a christian others will see Jesus in you by the works you do.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I've said this many times... "Christians" cannot agree among themselves who is actually going to be saved and who is not.

And I have always said that it is not Christian's job to decide this, so codeorama your point is really moot. Funny because philosophers, sociologists, etc don't always agree so I guess we should just ignore them too.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think the RCC will fade into oblivion by the turn of the next century. I only hope that I am around to see the church fade into oblivion.

Wow, how uplifting, let's just say chomerics that I will be working against your wishes and I truly hope to steal your joy of seeing the church fade into oblivion.

[JMS]

lmao. . .

my favorite saying is growing up in the Catholic Church left a sour taste in my mouth. . .

Their rules and regs were way WAY to stringent for me, and as a good example for the problems with the religion, I will tell a little story of a friend I was out with last night.

Well, she waited until she was 35 to be married because she wanted to make sure she married the right person. Well her "lying cheating husband" as she puts it crushed her by sleeping with her friend less than a month after they were married. What did she do? She went to church many a night and cried to God because she wanted to know why God did this to her. It wasn't until after about 6 months of doing this that she finally started to get it, but that is what the church makes us believe. The Catholic guilt is something only Jews can relate to, and anytime something goes wrong in our lives, it is because of something we did.

Well, there is nothing like a good talk with an Atheist (me) to help show her the light What I talked to her about last night was how everything in life is not pre-ordained. I explained to her that the future is in our hands and not Gods. If you allow God to lead your life, you will die a lonely woman. It's no coincidence that a lot of old maids are very religious. I told her that we can not control others actions, and we shouldn't worry about what they do. The only thing we have control over is our own actions in life, and if we don't like the path we are on, we have the ability to change the rudder of the ship. Catholicism teaches the opposite, as everything in our life is set by God, and we are just pawns in his large game of life chess. It does more to hurt people in terms of growth, ans problem solving then it helps.

The Draconian and outdated laws have made people run from the church, and they will continue to do so. The conservative approach of the pope will only further isolate the RCC from the mainstream, which IMO is a good thing. I think the RCC will fade into oblivion by the turn of the next century. I only hope that I am around to see the church fade into oblivion.

So you got from Catholicism that god was an Iliad type of God. A watcher who toys with lives, an angry jealous God from the old testament? I go to church most weeks, I went to Catholic schools, I didn't get that.

I'm not saying you are wrong. We both know Catholicism is a big tent, you want to find a peer group, Catholics have it.

I heard a good sermon once. A guy is sitting in his house and he hears on TV that a hurricane is coming. The guy says, I'm a good Catholic, I go to church, I prey every night, God loves me, I'm not worried.

A few hours latter a policeman comes to his door and says, "Dude, you're still here, there's a hurricane coming we're evacuating the area. The guy says. I'm a good Catholic, I go to church, I prey every night, God loves me, I'm not worried.

Then the hurricane hits and the flood waters are rising and the winds are blowing and a rescue worker comes by in a boat. DUDE, hurry and get in the boat. The flood is going to continue to rise. The guy says. I'm a good Catholic, I go to church, I prey every night, God loves me, I'm not worried.

A few hours latter the guy is up on his roof because of the flood waters. A helicopter flies past. The pilot yells down. DUDE, get in the basket. The flood isn't receding. The guy repeats, I'm a good Catholic, I go to church, I prey every night, God loves me, I'm not worried!!!

Well a few hours latter the guy is waiting outside St. Peter's gate; and he's pissed. He meets God and he says. GOD!!!! I was a good catholic, I went to church, I preyed every night, we had a personal relationship. WHY DID YOU LET ME DIE!!!!

God says. DUDE!!!, I sent a TV story, a police man, a boat and a helicopter. Why did you ignore me!!

Anyway, just a thought.

[SkinsHokieFan]

I went to Catholic school for 2 years and learned quite a bit

I respect the fact that Catholics are very devoted and are people of faith. I have very high regard for people of faith

I just never understood why those who are not of faith care what people of faith do inside their houses of worship.

If they are not bothering/harming you in their places of worship, who cares. :whoknows:

Which is why I was stunned by the fact that non Catholics actually had any type of reaction to the selection of the Pope or what the Pope says

Now if he says "kill all non-Catholics it is commanded by God" then yea it becomes a problem for non Catholics. Other then that, I don't see why anyone cares

[zoony]

Living in the south... it's certainly a departure for me to be reading posts from Protestants claiming that Catholics discriminate :laugh:

C'mon down south boys & girls... if you're Catholic, I give you about 3 days before you're approached by a Baptist and you are told directly that the next anti-Christ will come out of the Vatican, and that all Catholics will be going to hell. I wish I was kidding... I'm not.

This is a true story... an aquaintance of mine's son married a Catholic girl. The congregation of the Baptist Church that he (the son) goes to dedicated a Sunday service to nothing but praying for the soul of the son, because by marrying a Catholic he will surely be going to hell. It was a time of crisis.

Didn't mean to interrupt, of course. Carry on

....

[JMS]

And I have always said that it is not Christian's job to decide this, so codeorama your point is really moot. Funny because philosophers, sociologists, etc don't always agree so I guess we should just ignore them too.

I think codeorama makes a good point about Christians not agreeing on anything much less about salvation. We don't even agree on what a Christian is. I don't think that's a knock on Christianity. There are many lovely flowers in the garden, why is it a bad thing that folks show devotion in different ways?

The only folks who should be challenged by the fact codeorama brought up are folks who use their religion as a hammer or a weapon rather than as a comforter. If you want to beat folks down with your faith, every other religion and many folks in your own religion are always going to look like a nails.

Just my opinion. God loves all his children. The Pope, The Protestants, and even the atheists.

Anyway, can't debate faith. It just is. It doesn't require rational.