Pope: Other Christians not true churches

[zoony]

The only folks who should be challenged by the fact codeorama brought up are folks who use their religion as a hammer or a weapon rather than as a blanket.

Just my opinion. God loves all his children. The Pope, The Protestants, and even the atheists.

Now if he says "kill all non-Catholics it is commanded by God" then yea it becomes a problem for non Catholics. Other then that, I don't see why anyone cares

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on this issue as well.

SHF... a question though... what was it like going to Catholic school as a Muslim? Did they know you were Muslim... and how did they react? Just curious if you don't mind.

....

[JMS]

Living in the south... it's certainly a departure for me to be reading posts from Protestants claiming that Catholics discriminate :laugh:

C'mon down south boys & girls... if you're Catholic, I give you about 3 days before you're approached by a Baptist and you are told directly that the next anti-Christ will come out of the Vatican, and that all Catholics will be going to hell. I wish I was kidding... I'm not.

I have a vacation house (shack) down in Arkansas. My wife's family is from there. My wife's family told her all Catholics were drunks. They live in a dry county. I didn't help their impressions when I asked where they bought their beer? Duh!!

Funny thing. Before I got married I had a cat. The cat had kittens. My wife's folks told her that I didn't spay my cat cause I was Catholic and was against birth control... I almost fell out of bed laughing.

Oh my favorite. You marry a catholic, you marry the Pope... I said "yeah, so". Marry a Catholic and you'll always have a winning sports team to root for!!

My wife couldn't believe it when I told her my grandfather a very strong conservative catholic didn't drink a drop of alcohol his entire life. Like that was somehow against the religion.

I've kind of mellowed the inlaws out since..

This is a true story... an acquaintance of mine's son married a Catholic girl. The congregation of the Baptist Church that he (the son) goes to dedicated a Sunday service to nothing but praying for the soul of the son, because by marrying a Catholic he will surely be going to hell. It was a time of crisis.

I've sat through some uncomfortable protestant ceremonies too. I try not to take offense. God knows Catholics have made our share of mistakes in history.

[AsburySkinsFan]

I think codeorama makes a good point about Christians not agreeing on anything much less about salvation. We don't even agree on what a Christian is. I don't think that's a knock on Christianity. There are many lovely flowers in the garden, why is it a bad thing that folks show devotion in different ways?

But that wasn't Code's point, and neither is it the pope's in fact they share the opposite extremes.

The only folks who should be challenged by the fact codeorama brought up are folks who use their religion as a hammer or a weapon rather than as a comforter.

Not when the argument was used as some sort of proof that because Christians don't agree then they shouldn't be listened too.

Just my opinion. God loves all his children. The Pope, The Protestants, and even the atheists.

I agree completely

Anyway, can't debate faith. It just is. It doesn't require rational.

Right, you can't debate faith however you can debate the our understandings of faith especially when they come from a common literary source.

[70th Week]

The only folks who should be challenged by the fact codeorama brought up are folks who use their religion as a hammer or a weapon rather than as a comforter. If you want to beat folks down with your faith, every other religion and many folks in your own religion are always going to look like a nails.

Ouch! I think you hit the nail on the head with some around here... :paranoid:

:hammer:

[SkinsHokieFan]

Pretty much sums up my thoughts on this issue as well.

SHF... a question though... what was it like going to Catholic school as a Muslim? Did they know you were Muslim... and how did they react? Just curious if you don't mind.

....

No problems.

I actually had no problems at all being a Muslim at a Catholic school. Being it was 7th and 8th grade some of the other students were fairly ignorant of Islam but very open to learning. The teachers were always very open also

On another note, most any school in Pakistan worth a damn is a Catholic school. All my aunts and uncles went to St. Joseph's or St. Mary's or some school like that when they lived in Pakistan

[codeorama]

And I have always said that it is not Christian's job to decide this, so codeorama your point is really moot. Funny because philosophers, sociologists, etc don't always agree so I guess we should just ignore them too.

The reason I always bring it up is because many "christians" speak as if they are a group that is in total agreement with each other and that is far from the truth.

For example, gay marriage. All you hear is how "christians" are against it, yet, you can find "christian" churches that are willing to perform gay marriage or have gays as part of their congregation.

There is no "One" voice to speak for "christianity" and I agree with you 100%, its not up to people to decide who's getting saved anyway... yet, they keep voicing their opinions on it as if it were fact.

My message to all people of religion would be..."keep it to yourself"... Why? Because your opinion is probably different even from other people within your own religion. :2cents:

[Destino]

Paul puts it like this:

Romans 3

23For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

27Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith.

28Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law.

There is no amount of deeds or works we can do to repay Jesus for what he has done for us....we all sin and come short......The works of the law are now done away with because of the sacrifice of Jesus.

The way the bible lays it out seems simple to me. It is by Jesus' sacrifice that we are all given a chance because the natural state of man is sinful. That's the grace position.

However that's only the first part of it.

Works in the bible comes after grace:

First in parable

13Then the king said to his attendants, 'Bind his hands and feet, and cast him into the darkness outside, where there will be wailing and grinding of teeth.'

14 Many are invited, but few are chosen."

Then in description of judgement:

Then the king will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father. Inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world.

35 For I was hungry and you gave me food, I was thirsty and you gave me drink, a stranger and you welcomed me,

Grace is what gives you a chance, works inspired by faith is what takes you the rest of the way.

[AsburySkinsFan]

My message to all people of religion would be..."keep it to yourself"... Why? Because your opinion is probably different even from other people within your own religion. :2cents:

The problem is that my faith teaches that I'm not supposed to keep it to myself. In fact the reality is very similar to telling someone very good news. Would you not tell everyone you could about the Redskins winning the Super Bowl? Well, it's very much the same, only of a much greater magnitude of importance.

[AsburySkinsFan]

Grace is what gives you a chance, works inspired by faith is what takes you the rest of the way.

Grace is the means of salvation, and grace is the means to works of righteousness as we live out our salvation.

[codeorama]

The problem is that my faith teaches that I'm not supposed to keep it to myself. In fact the reality is very similar to telling someone very good news. Would you not tell everyone you could about the Redskins winning the Super Bowl? Well, it's very much the same, only of a much greater magnitude of importance.

I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm only saying what I said because your faith is fact to you, but to another person who is of the same faith, the facts are more than likely different... :2cents:

[AsburySkinsFan]

I totally understand where you are coming from. I'm only saying what I said because your faith is fact to you, but to another person who is of the same faith, the facts are more than likely different... :2cents:

You're right, and they are completely free to reject the message, however the "truth" that they replace it may not be an equal or accurate "truth". Am I saying that one Christian faith has it completely correct? No, but then I don't think they are all equally wrong either.

BTW, as a Methodist we are a confessional church meaning that we are defined by a certain faith confession, probably similar to a creed. Those who do not believe in points of our confessions would be instructed in those points. What's more is that most points of disagreement in the church are not about matters of salvation, but instead are on issues that are called adiaphora, meaning "indifferent things", some define them as points that are not necessary to salvation.

[JMS]

I went to Catholic school for 2 years and learned quite a bit

I respect the fact that Catholics are very devoted and are people of faith. I have very high regard for people of faith

I just never understood why those who are not of faith care what people of faith do inside their houses of worship.

If they are not bothering/harming you in their places of worship, who cares. :whoknows:

Because religious intolerance is responsible for killing more folks and more wars than any other reason down through history. I think someone who would openly denigrate and castigate a broad category of religions is in fact a concern for all.

Folks who believe in Christ don't appreciate a religion with close to a Billion folks talking smack about them.

Now if he says "kill all non-Catholics it is commanded by God" then yea it becomes a problem for non Catholics. Other then that, I don't see why anyone cares

The pope isn't the head of a mindless army of followers. He's the head of the church, which doesn't make him closer to god than you, me or an atheist. Catholics are taught in catechism and cannon law that we have the right to seek our own spiritual salvation; we just have the responsibility to seek consensus with Rome.

Church council is the highest order of Catholic Church law.

DIGNITATIS HUMANAE

Vatican Council II

2. This Vatican Council declares that the human person has a right to religious freedom. This freedom means that all men are to be immune from coercion on the part of individuals or of social groups and of any human power, in such wise that no one is to be forced to act in a manner contrary to his own beliefs, whether privately or publicly, whether alone or in association with others within due limits.

http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/teach/dignhuma.htm

[AsburySkinsFan]

Because religious intolerance is responsible for killing more folks and more wars than any other reason down through history.

See, I don't think that the Religious wars were about this at all, but instead about Princes, etc seeking more power and more land and using the church as an excuse for war. But, that's a different debate.

[JMS]

But that wasn't Code's point, and neither is it the pope's in fact they share the opposite extremes.

I think Codes point was that people who claim to speak for Christianity rarely do. Whether it's a pope trying to disallow protestants, or it's a Protestant trying to make a case for hating gay folks.

Christians don't agree on much.

Not when the argument was used as some sort of proof that because Christians don't agree then they shouldn't be listened too.

Not used to ignore Christians, rather used to temper statements from folks who claim to speak for all Christians or in some cases for Christ himself.

Right, you can't debate faith however you can debate the our understandings of faith especially when they come from a common literary source.

There is no common literary source. The Bible exists in many different forms across different faiths within Christianity and it says different things. What folks believe is more an article of faith, than a reflection of a commonly agreed upon text.

[zoony]

See, I don't think that the Religious wars were about this at all, but instead about Princes, etc seeking more power and more land and using the church as an excuse for war. But, that's a different debate.

agreed. The whole "Christianity is responsible for more deaths" argument is one I give no credibility to whatsoever.

People and nations were slaughtering each other long before organized religion. And people like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler had no religious affiliation.

Leaders will use whatever they can to rally their populations against another... religion just happens to be the most convenient excuse.

[JMS]

See, I don't think that the Religious wars were about this at all, but instead about Princes, etc seeking more power and more land and using the church as an excuse for war. But, that's a different debate.

It's true that religion has been used in nationalistic causes. But that doesn't excuse the religious component. Humans have a rich history of religious intolerance. Even religions based on "love thy brother as one would love thyself" are not exempt from this history.

That's not a knock on religions. It's just a reason to guard oneself against prejudices of others who don't agree with you on matters of faith.

[JMS]

People and nations were slaughtering each other long before organized religion. And people like Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler had no religious affiliation.

I disagree with you. I think Stalin, Pol Pot, and Hitler did have a religion. It just wasn't one based on Christs teachings. I think religious intolerance was at the heart of their crimes.

Leaders will use whatever they can to rally their populations against another... religion just happens to be the most convenient excuse.

And very often that is religion.

[endzone_dave]

Just to play devil's advocate.

If the Pope says non-Catholics can achieve salvation too, then I can say, "Ok, so I don't REALLY need to go to confession to be saved. I don't REALLY need the body of Christ to be saved. My child doesn't REALLY have to be Baptised to be saved."

I think declaring salvation could weaken many of the things Catholcism teached.

Just a thought.

[Munchkin76]

Just to play devil's advocate.

If the Pope says non-Catholics can achieve salvation too, then I can say, "Ok, so I don't REALLY need to go to confession to be saved. I don't REALLY need the body of Christ to be saved. My child doesn't REALLY have to be Baptised to be saved."

I think declaring salvation could weaking many of the things Catholism teached.

Just a thought.

Based on my understanding, and I'm willing to learn more here, but there are only two sacraments in the bible that are clearly stated that we are to uphold. One, baptism (not necessarily as a child, as Jesus was older when he was baptised) and two, communion, or the Eucharist. I don't believe anywhere in the bible it states that you specifically have to go to confession (I know there are passages stating to ask for forgiveness, but in my reading of those passages you are asking for forgiveness directly, not through a middle man), or that you have to be given your last rites. I've looked and looked for a specific passage that lays out directly that you have to go to a priest and confess your sins or have rites read to you when you are sick in order to go to heaven and no such luck.

Can anyone explain that to me?

[endzone_dave]

Based on my understanding, and I'm willing to learn more here, but there are only two sacraments in the bible that are clearly stated that we are to uphold. One, baptism (not necessarily as a child, as Jesus was older when he was baptised) and two, communion, or the Eucharist. I don't believe anywhere in the bible it states that you specifically have to go to confession (I know there are passages stating to ask for forgiveness, but in my reading of those passages you are asking for forgiveness directly, not through a middle man), or that you have to be given your last rites. I've looked and looked for a specific passage that lays out directly that you have to go to a priest and confess your sins or have rites read to you when you are sick in order to go to heaven and no such luck.

Can anyone explain that to me?

Actually, it is critical for a parent to Baptise their child early. The Church does not want you to wait on that. Waiting more than one year to go to confession is considered a mortal sin which can jeopardize salvation.

Edit:

In addition, I believe the act of confessing your sins was around prior to the Bible being written, which is why the Catholic Church favors it so much. In fact, I believe people actually confessed their sins to a group of people. I may in wrong in all of this, this is just what I remember reading.

[Munchkin76]

Actually, it is critical for a parent to Baptise their child early. The Church does not want you to wait on that. Waiting more than one year to go to confession is considered a mortal sin which can jeopardize salvation.

Edit:

In addition, I believe the act of confessing your sins was around prior to the Bible being written, which is why the Catholic Church favors it so much. In fact, I believe people actually confessed their sins to a group of people. I may in wrong in all of this, this is just what I remember reading.

As a Lutheran, which is darn near Catholic, there are just a very few differences and I've always been interested in it. After talking to several Pastors, one of the differences is we only have 2 sacraments as opposed to 7. Because specifically, there is no reference in the bible of the others being necessary. It could be, as you mentioned, traditions that were carried about prior to the bible being written, but those folks weren't "Catholics". Or it could be deemed as something the Catholic church came up with on their own with no real "evidence" of it being necessary in the bible.

I was baptised very young and don't remember it at all. And while Lutherans also tend to baptise young children, I have also seen adults do this as well. I don't see anything wrong with someone that wasn't raised in a church and now wants to make that committment being able to do so.

For the two sects to be so close, it still is very confusing to me.

[endzone_dave]

As a Lutheran, which is darn near Catholic, there are just a very few differences and I've always been interested in it. After talking to several Pastors, one of the differences is we only have 2 sacraments as opposed to 7. Because specifically, there is no reference in the bible of the others being necessary. It could be, as you mentioned, traditions that were carried about prior to the bible being written, but those folks weren't "Catholics". Or it could be deemed as something the Catholic church came up with on their own with no real "evidence" of it being necessary in the bible.

I was baptised very young and don't remember it at all. And while Lutherans also tend to baptise young children, I have also seen adults do this as well. I don't see anything wrong with someone that wasn't raised in a church and now wants to make that committment being able to do so.

For the two sects to be so close, it still is very confusing to me.

Catholics believe in Tradition and Scripture whereas most other denominations only believe in Scripture. Tradition is very important to the Catholic church. How things were done in the early days before the Bible is considered to be very valuble considering it was done only just a few years after Christ's death.

[AJ_Skins]

Every Christian denomination essentially affirms the statements of the Nicene Creed, which are the basic facts of Christianity. The most significant area of dispute is not over the means of salvation or the place of works vs. grace. It is over the concept of eternal security. In other words, some Christian organizations--the Catholic Church being the main one--believe that it is possible, once having accepted Christ, to lose your salvation. In Catholic terms, that means committing what is called called a "mortal sin", and dying without confessing it or being absolved. Most Protestants condemn that doctrine in the strongest possible terms, and believe that once you have accepted Jesus Christ, you are saved, and that's it. There is only one "mortal sin"--rejecting the witness of the Holy Spirit with regard to Jesus Christ.

There are other significant disputes such as praying to Mary, which Protestants (including me) would argue is idolatry, and the issue of having to go through human intermediaries to get to God. The Bible clearly states that there is one intercessor between God and man, Jesus Christ. Jesus himself said "call no man Father, except God". It's always amazed me that Catholics go around calling their priests "father", when Jesus so clearly spoke against it. There are also a lot of other less significant rules imposed by the Catholic Church that have no basis in scripture, such as priests being celibate.

None of that means that Catholics aren't Christians, though. The Protestant POV is much more lenient. Anyone who truly believes in and accepts Jesus Christ is saved, and is a Christian, including any Catholic to whom that applies.

[JMS]

As a Lutheran, which is darn near Catholic, there are just a very few differences and I've always been interested in it. After talking to several Pastors, one of the differences is we only have 2 sacraments as opposed to 7. Because specifically, there is no reference in the bible of the others being necessary. It could be, as you mentioned, traditions that were carried about prior to the bible being written, but those folks weren't "Catholics". Or it could be deemed as something the Catholic church came up with on their own with no real "evidence" of it being necessary in the bible.

Catholics believe the first book of the new testament (Thessalonians or Galatians) was written 50 years after Christs death. The earliest apostle book, Mark was also written more than 50 years after Christs death, and other books of the apostles were actually written with Mark as a guideline.

Thus Catholics learn that Christians do predate the bible.

As for Lutherans being close to Catholics. Most of Martin Luther's reforms were incorporated into Catholic church doctrine relatively quickly after Lutherans schism. In fact Lutheran had an audience with the Pope before the schism to discuss his issues. Lutheran didn't make it to that meeting as he was sheltered by noblemen who sought to use his declaration for nationalistic goals.

One large difference between the two faiths today is pre-determination. Lutherans believe people are born saved or born unsaved and nothing done on earth can effect this predetermination. Catholics believe salvation is an active choice achieved by faith and good works. Recently the Pope has said faith entails faith in Christ, and now even in the Catholic Church itself. Prior to Pope Benedict and since Vatican council II faith was not so narrowly interpreted.

[JMS]

Every Christian denomination essentially affirms the statements of the Nicene Creed, which are the basic facts of Christianity.

Actually the Nicene Creed was created more than 300 years after Christ died in the first Catholic church council of Niccea, a suburb of Constantinopolis. IT was called by the Pagan Constantine the emporer of Rome. While he hoped to use the creed to unify the fragmented Christian community, his first order of business was to pursecute all Christians who would not sign up to it as law.

There are modern Christians who do not subscribe to the Nicean Creed.