I need to know something in a poll form.

[Gamebreaker]

Our current defensive lineman get very little pressure on the quarterback. The team has done nothing to upgrade this position.

So....linebackers will continue to be forced to fight many OL to get to the ball carrier. Corners and safeties will continue to get exposed due to covering recievers for too long. Very little will change.

Football 101.

[Dirk Diggler]

Quite simply... wrong. What a sack is #1 is a loss of a down. #2, a sack is typically a loss of 4 yards or more.... which basically means the offense has 2 downs to get 14+ yards. That's tough..... for any offense. Now take into account that defenses can start playing the pass (down and distance) and you take another edge away from the offense.

So what usually happens? Loss of downs (punt). Virtually guaranteed.

You know what? When I have a few days.... I'm going to go through the 2006 season (every game... through box scores) and chart what happens to the drives where a sack was earned. Just to demostrate the effectiveness of a sack on the offense.

The only teams that can't capitilize on a sack (3rd down and long) are teams that cannot consistently generate pressure - which subsequently leads to sacks.

Sound familiar? The Washington Redskins.

I don't doubt the importance of sacks and their positive correlation with stopping drives and ultimately, winning games. And I'm all for defensive line help. I think we're incredibly thin and the "players" we do have are on the wrong side of 30 except for Andre Carter. By next season we're looking at swapping out at least half of the guys in our projected 2007 rotation.

However, just looking at what happens following a sack isn't enough. If all 4 defensive lineman are making a B-line for the QB, run defense often suffers. So to be fair, you'd really need to know what happens when a defensive lineman is charging upfield and loses containment. That 15 yard run hurts just as much as that 8 yard sacks helps. If that's happening with great frequency, then the 2-3 sacks per game that are generated really aren't worth the price you pay to get them.

[Die Hard]

However, just looking at what happens following a sack isn't enough. If all 4 defensive lineman are making a B-line for the QB, run defense often suffers. So to be fair, you'd really need to know what happens when a defensive lineman is charging upfield and loses containment. That 15 yard run just as much as that 8 yard sacks helps. If that's happening with great frequency, then the 2-3 sacks per game that are generated really aren't worth the price you pay to get them.

Except, Williams' defense is geared towards stopping the run.... and they aren't doing that either.

So either way... we needed to upgrade the defensive line.

[phatSkins27]

....rapid?

sorry i had a typo i didnt see...i meant rabid i will edit the orig post

I appologise since not all skins walk on water.....:notworthy

[Skinsinparadise]

UK Skins has the right of it. You flat out ignore or gloss over any point which contradicts your postulate and then proclaim those who disagree with you to be cranially challenged. You probably will win out on pure fillibustering, but chances are most have already decided that your position is repleat with a variety of holes. I personally bowed out when you stated as a postulate that the only complexity in sports management deals with player evaluation - that the strategy and assessment was simplistic - that it was impossible for there to be any ambiguity there, even though every other organization everywhere struggles mightily with this. Bottom line, this is not an individual effort - this is a large group oriented effort, and is subject to all the infallibilities that all organizations engaged in complex decision making go through. You simply won't address the issue that 20 experts (all more knowledgeable than us) engaged in making singular evaluations and strategic direction decisions will sometimes (perhaps often) make incongruent ones. But somehow, this kept getting back to "I know more than the coaches know" commentary.

EDIT: Bottom line, whether you like it, agree with it or not, arrogance, misunderstanding, miscommunication, power struggles politics and all the rest can and do impact the Redskins overall strategy and evaluation of problems in reaching that strategy. Why is this so? Simple - this is true in every other type of organization of every size everywhere on earth.

That post was directed at Art not me but I'll use it as pretext to make a point. As to points being ignored that contradicts as you say Art's "postulate". And it sounds like you are trying to make this an academic research driven point but that's fine I'll run with it, its been awhile but I TA'd stats and research back in my day so I can play along. Your point seems to be there are various variables involved that Art didn't account for that impinges on his theory and since we aren't controlling those variables and factoring them then his postulate doesn't capture the whole picture and is therefore off base.

Well this is much simpler than that. The point is this its Gregg Williams' scheme not ours. Do we understand his own scheme better than he does or do we not? That's it.

I'll go back to my metaphor from a previous post that I am running my business, I set it up, I deal with it every day the ups and downs. Now can someone run my business better, maybe. Now, am I going to make mistakes, for sure, who doesn't? Are human factors going to affect it daily, of course. Is water wet? But can someone else explain my own business model that I concocted and that I am running on a daily basis better than me? No way.

The idea that someone tells me that I hired the wrong employee who didn't work out or that they have observed how someone else runs their business or heard the media's definition of a well run business or say that I've made mistakes with my business or that human factors can affect the outcome of my success -- are fine points to make and are fair to make but have nothing to do with the point at hand.

Again its can someone tell me that they understand my model of how my business works better than I do? They can say they can come up with a better way to do it or point out flaws in it, etc. But how can they tell me for example my business model is driven by X so why am I doing Y. They can tell me my business model is driven by X but I should be doing Y -- that's a different story.

And some accuse the point behind this thread as arrogant. To each their own but IMO some of the rebuttals are the ones that make the arrogant grade.

How would you guys feel if someone with casual observation of your job, tells you what makes YOU tick, and how YOU approach your job, and how you don't understand YOUR own approach to work? Wouldn't you be like who the heck are you, you are telling me you understand my habits and techniques better than I can?

Again this is a whole different drill than someone suggesting how you can do things better or maybe you should approach things like this guy, etc.

The point here isn't that Gregg Williams isn't infalliable or that the D line is perfect the way it is or that people can't criticize. The point is some of the criticisms smack from the person running with a premise that is simple and blunt and implies without directly saying it that Gregg is a dope who doesn't understand his OWN schemes and how they are supposed to work.

Usually the point is driven more or less from the perspective that either all defenses are run alike or Gregg doesn't understand basic football 101 or have any clue about the health and prospects of football players he sees every day in practice like we do from a quote or two from the WP.

[Warpath11]

What good is getting a pass rushing defensive end when in our scheme, under Greg Blache, the linemen are not expected to attack the QB but rather stop the run. In our scheme, as it stands right now, Dwight Freeney would be a giant hole for RBs to expose over and over again (much like they did this year with Carter, early on). Carter improved once he was turned loose on first and second down not just third and distance.

In hind-sight why would we sign Carter and Archuletta? well I think the answer was in the fact that AA was going to play in the box (as the idea was originally schemed). I think the coaches felt they could mask Carter's shortcomings in run defense with having 8 in the box on first and second down. All this blew up in our face and Carter was asked to hold his ground with giant left tackles against the run where he was just overmatched (his strenght is speed not power).

[Dirk Diggler]

Except, Williams' defense is geared towards stopping the run.... and they aren't doing that either.

So either way... we needed to upgrade the defensive line.

They WEREN'T doing that LAST season. It's a new season and while I'm not optimistic that we'll get back to our suffocating 2004 run defense, I'm fairly confident that 3.8 YPC is attainable with the new cast. If that's the case, then we're in line to play solid pass defense as well, sacks or no sacks.

[fansince62]

What good is getting a pass rushing defensive end when in our scheme, under Greg Blache, the linemen are not expected to attack the QB but rather stop the run. In our scheme, as it stands right now, Dwight Freeney would be a giant hole for RBs to expose over and over again (much like they did this year with Carter, early on). Carter improved once he was turned loose on first and second down not just third and distance.

In hind-sight why would we sign Carter and Archuletta? well I think the answer was in the fact that AA was going to play in the box (as the idea was originally schemed). I think the coaches felt they could mask Carter's shortcomings in run defense with having 8 in the box on first and second down. All this blew up in our face and Carter was asked to hold his ground with giant left tackles against the run where he was just overmatched (his strenght is speed not power).

1) Whose scheme is it? blache's or williams'?

2) If williams...he certainly has demonstrated a willingness to exploit pass rushers from the DL in the past (kearse)....working on the assumption that he was Tenn's D Coord when the freak was drafted and played his rook season.

[fansince62]

They WEREN'T doing that LAST season. It's a new season and while I'm not optimistic that we'll get back to our suffocating 2004 run defense, I'm fairly confident that 3.8 YPC is attainable with the new cast. If that's the case, then we're in line to play solid pass defense as well, sacks or no sacks.

I wouldn't pull that trigger too quickly. One of my observations at the games last season was that our LBs were not very adept at covering receivers out of the backfield. Perhaps the personnel/position changes will fix this. But stopping the run won't inevitably fix this problem. we'll find out pretty quickly during pre-season.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

A lot of people are content with Carter's performance later in the season. I happen to disagree. His stats indicate improved performance.... but I saw a guy with limited ability who used his speed to get to the outside and sack QB on deep drops (just like how Bruce Smith used to get them). Once tackles engage him.... he's finished. He is unable to get off blocks and make tackles. OT's were pushing him to the outside and runners were treated to gigantic holes offtackle - where our linebackers have to make the plays.

Carter is vulnerable against the run (all the big plays were to his side rushing the ball).... and is mediocre against the pass. I'm not enthralled with Carter.... but he's the best we have and I accept that he's not going anywhere soon either.

To me, our best defensive lineman is Griffin.... and he's missed too many games for my liking. That alone was reason to give the d-line some depth. If/when Griffin misses his game... the defense is screwed. It's that simple.

What people don't seem to understand is.... teams are going to run against us. And considering Gibbs' conservative offense... they can afford a drawn-out gameplan (driving 80-yards).

Teams are going to run... and they're going to pass against too. With the talent and money we have invested in our secondary... if they give up more than 100 passing yards in a game... it's a failure. And you know damn well they're going to give up 250+ yards... just like every other team in the NFL.

Except, they don't have $60M tied up in the 4 positions.

carter was switching positions last year and it showed that he really didnt start clicking until the last 5 or 6 weeks of the season. too early to judge him yet, if he can continue how he ended, weve got a solid DE over there. but you are right, hes not great vs the run.

griffins production has nosedived over the past 2 years. if you look at his 04 stats, he led the league in stuffs for loss and our run d was great. 05 he missed like 4 games, and last year he was obviously injured. hes getting old. unless hes 100% or close to it, weve lost a great DT up the middle, and we'll get run all over. salavea is old and done. we are counting on 2 roookies to hopefully shore up that DT spot, and im willing to trust williams and gibbs when they say they can contribute, but im still worried nonetheless.

im not as concerned with how many yards our secondary gives up per game, im more concerned with turnovers. a defense can give up 400 yards through the air but if we can get INTs itll change the face of the game for us, especially with gibbs running offense. we were killed last year because of no turnovers, we need that to succeed this year.

[Die Hard]

we are counting on 2 roookies to hopefully shore up that DT spot, and im willing to trust williams and gibbs when they say they can contribute, but im still worried nonetheless.

Not me. Joe Bugel was supposed to do the same for Mark Wilson and Jim Molinaro. Golston contributed some..... Montgomery didn't. I'm not going to count on them as anything more than rotational players.

[Winning Season Please!]

I am beginning to think our coaching staff can be equated to a bunch of kids. They get miffed at each other and stop communicating, they believe that there way is the best and they will not bend or conform to others. It is not whether or not they know their stuff better, it is are they man enough to admit if they make mistakes or need to change. As it stands now, the answer is no. Until they can show they can work together and that they can conform their systems to our TEAM, we are doomed.

What we need to understand is our TEAM is not Joe Gibbs offense, or Al Saunders offense, or Greg Williams’s defense; IT IS A TEAM EFFORT! Right now everyone is doing their own thing, now working together and making it look like the average fan does have more knowledge about the team.

[zoony]

Not me. Joe Bugel was supposed to do the same for Mark Wilson and Jim Molinaro. Golston contributed some..... Montgomery didn't. I'm not going to count on them as anything more than rotational players.

I think that Joe Bugel has very quietly done an outstanding job with the Oline since he's been here.

[Warpath11]

2) If williams...he certainly has demonstrated a willingness to exploit pass rushers from the DL in the past (kearse)....working on the assumption that he was Tenn's D Coord when the freak was drafted and played his rook season.

I addressed this very issue on post # 491 on page 33 but I think the answer lies in the fact that Gibbs is very adamant about stopping the run on defense and running the ball on offense. Hence the merging of Blache and Williams, I would have to agree it is not GWs modus operandi but with the Redskin Football philosophy as stated by Gibbs things had to go this way.

Besides Im sure if Blache had at least one 2-gap defensive tackle he would be more accepting of having his ends rush up-field (at least one of them) on non-obvious passing downs. At least with that end rushing up field he would funnel, even running plays, back towards the middle (as long as the OLB behind up-field rushing end is not Warrick Holdman)

[kameuh]

The fact that 231 people think they know more than our coaches is really infuriating and lame (unless they were joking). You don't. Next.

Why? The questions were rigged so it doesnt really matter how anyone votes. It's set up into a heads I win, tails you lose situation. The only way to have an opinion in contrast to the coaches, by the choices the poll gives, is to answer that you indeed do know more than the coaches.

Since I don't agree with every decision the coaching staff has made I voted for the know more than the coaches option.

Of course we don't have better information or knowledge than the coaches, but that doesn't be we have to agree with everything they do, so my vote reflected that.

BTW those choices reminded me of standing at the ballot box last election, though that is probably more of a tailgate rant.

Yes Art is attempting to make a point, but his underlying premise is incorrect. That being the coaches are incapable of mistakes or above criticism, neither of which is correct.

My :2cents: on what some of the 231 were thinking.

[skinsn24]

Alright, seems like alot of people passed these over in two seperate threads.

Here are the two points we all seem to be missing

1. Gregg Williams Best Defeneses all had good if not great Lineplay, this theme that he can manage with bad lineplay is not based on facts.

2. The facts that Gregg Williams can find weaknesses with his system, with 100% accuracy and 0% chance of error because it is his system is totally false. The reverse is actually true.

Points 1:

GW seems to have forgotten what led to much of his sucess, GOOD defensive line play. Doesnt have to a be super (even though much of the time it was), but very effective defensive line. When i say effective, i mean a GOOD RUN STOPPING defensive line, that also has the ability to get to the passer.

Lets go inside the numbers:

1999-Titan-superbowl year:

Kenny Holmes (DE)- 4 sacks and TWO interceptions

Jvon Kearse (DE)-14.5 Sacks

Big Joe Sal'ava (DT)-BIG run stopper (was 8 years younger than he is now)

John Thorton (DT)-Run stopper, but got 4.5 sacks from the DT spot!!

Jason Frisk (DT)- 4 sacks and 1 pick from the DT position

Josh Evans (DT/DE)- 3.5 Sacks from the DT position

Henry Ford (DT/DE)- 5.5 sacks

Sacks from the Dline = 36, Interceptions from the Dline=3

WOW i would say that was a good year for lineman..36 DL freakin sacks.

2000-Number 1 ranked defense

Jason Frisk (DT/NT)-Huge Run Stopper, Nose tackle-still 2 sacks

Kenny Holmes (DE) -8 Sacks

Jvon Kearse (DE) -11.5 sacks

BIG JOE (DT)--again in there to stop the run (7 years younger)

John Thorton (DT)- 4 sacks

Henry Ford (DE/DT)-2 sacks

Keith Ambrey (DE)-3.5 sacks

Total DL sacks-31..31 freakin sacks from the DL

Bills 2003- number 2 ranked defense

Aaron Schobel (DE)-11.5 sacks 1 Int

Jeff Posey (DE) --5.5 sacks

Sam Adams(NT/DT)-HUGE RUN STOPPER, 5 sacks 1 Int

Ryan Denny-(DE) 3.5 sacks

Ron Edwards (DT)- injuried .5 sacks

Pat Williams- (NT/DT) HUGE RUN STOPPER

Justin Dannin (DT)-Run stopper

Total DL sacks-26, plus 2 picks with 2 Nose tackle type players

The rest you guys know, i am sure. (2004, healthy Griff, Healthy big JOE playin at a high level)...2006--19 total sacks for the entire team

Does someone want to explain to me where this "Gregg Williams doesnt need good DL play" theme came from?

I only did his best years, because i think that is what matters.

[KingGibbs]

Not me. Joe Bugel was supposed to do the same for Mark Wilson and Jim Molinaro. Golston contributed some..... Montgomery didn't. I'm not going to count on them as anything more than rotational players.

Bingo! While Golston did contribute he clearly got worn down by the heavier OL'men.

[Die Hard]

I think that Joe Bugel has very quietly done an outstanding job with the Oline since he's been here.

We'll disagree. I believe Bugel should have been replaced 2 years ago. Our short-yardage rushing has been horrendous for the past 3 years; we can't convert 3rd and short situations since Gibbs came back. And our pass protection has been atrocious for all 3 years as well. If it wasn't for Brunell throwing away some passes it'd be even worse.

Considering how much the Redskins have invested in the offensive line... it's underperforming horribly. They've turned into a power-running team out of necessity.... what the hell is left?

The only kind of success this team has had running the ball is with runners running hard through puny holes and earning their own yards. There aren't big rushing lanes often, if at all.

[skinsn24]

Point 2: The facts that Gregg Williams can find weaknesses with his system, with 100% accuracy and 0% chance of error because it is his system is totally false. The reverse is actually true.

To say that no one else can find a weakness as well as GW is 100% not true. Now most fans are not able to, i am not saying they are, but occassionaly they might be right. Here is the reason why:

Look its obvious the coaches know more about their system than any fan does. This does NOT in anyway way mean that the coaches are right 100% of the time in knowing what the weaknesses of the system are or in figuring out what went wrong. I am sorry, no chance lance.

The self serving bias, fundamental attribution error, halo effect and many other natural human flaws are involved. Anyone who denies this point or thinks otherwise, needs to go to college and learn something before they type. Yes i know, its amazing college actually teaches management, problem recongition and problem solving skills.

When something is yours, it is actually HARDER and MORE challanging, to find flaws or weaknesses in. This is a fact, proven in hundreds of studies on managment. Think about your kids (if you have any). They might be fat, slow, and stupid to an outsider, but to a mom or dad, the kids is probably just big boned, needs to play outside a little more, or a slower learner. A daughter may be ugly to everyone who sees her, but her mom and dad probably think she looks just fine.

The same is true in the business world and is the reason there is a multi-billion dollar consulting and infrastructure building industry. There is no reason to believe the same doesnt hold true in the football world, no reason at all.

The notion that beacuase someone (GW) created something (his scheme), he can correctly identify the problems and weaknesses 100% of the time with a 0% chance of error, is not simply incorrect, but rather the opposite is true. He is most likely too blind to fairly evaluate what the true problems are. An outsider with knowledge of the sport and scheme is actually a much better person to evaulate what the problem or weakness is. I bet Tony D or Lovie S could easily shed some light on our problems, hell even Buddy Ryan.

This makes perfect sense though, as parents usually cant figure out what is wrong with their kids, they get counsulers and shrinks to do that. Companies hardly ever implement change themselves, instead they contract an outisde consulting firm to figure out what the problems are and what can be done to fix them.

This is a fundamental concept in management and is found in ALL human beings. We ALL possess a fundamental attribution error and a self serving bias.

(The self serving bias is why most of us are homers and believe we are better than the coypukes everyyear)

This notion that only the creator of something can know what is really wrong is totally false and i have proven why above. It is a shame that some "kid" from generation "ipod" has to be the one to shed some real information on this topic. Information that is based on facts, case studies, intricate long term studies, and proven concepts. No question about it, now lets put this baby to rest, because the facts have been said, yes Art, these are facts. Now back to my thesis.

[Dirk Diggler]

I wouldn't pull that trigger too quickly. One of my observations at the games last season was that our LBs were not very adept at covering receivers out of the backfield. Perhaps the personnel/position changes will fix this. But stopping the run won't inevitably fix this problem. we'll find out pretty quickly during pre-season.

I believe:

McIntosh or Marshall > Holdman

Fletcher > Marshall

I'm no doctor, but a mended Marcus W should be better than the guy last season who was playing at 50%.

These players will also most likely have the benefit of a healthier line playing in front of them. They also will benefit from having a captain like LBF, who makes it less likely the front 7 will be out of position.

[KingGibbs]

Absolutely priceless.

A team that is soft in the middle against the run and cannot collapse the pocket has no needs at DT or DE.

Art, you're a good company man.

Archuletta was a good idea...beautiful!

:laugh: That's some good stuff right there.

[Die Hard]

They also will benefit from having a captain like LBF, who makes it less likely the front 7 will be out of position.

Dude, Marshall was the weak-side backer year 1... and MLB for the last 2 years. If anyone knew that system inside and out... it should have been Marshall. Getting guys lined up correctly shouldn't have been a variable.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

We'll disagree. I believe Bugel should have been replaced 2 years ago. Our short-yardage rushing has been horrendous for the past 3 years; we can't convert 3rd and short situations since Gibbs came back. And our pass protection has been atrocious for all 3 years as well. If it wasn't for Brunell throwing away some passes it'd be even worse.

Considering how much the Redskins have invested in the offensive line... it's underperforming horribly. They've turned into a power-running team out of necessity.... what the hell is left?

The only kind of success this team has had running the ball is with runners running hard through puny holes and earning their own yards. There aren't big rushing lanes often, if at all.

dude cmon, ladel betts has the breakaway speed of a tortoise and the vision of hellen keller, and the dude was PLOWING through dlines because of the holes created by our oline. our oline was mauling people in the 2nd half of the season after we got rid of saunders lamo blocking schemes. and poor pass protection? campbell got sacked less than just about any other QB in the league, and hes hardly some scrambling guy. brunell and campbell combined for 19 total sacks. thats hardly anything considering boonell got slammed like 6 times in the dallas game. and all QBs will dump the ball off if they think theyre getting pwned, its not just brunell. he was awful dont get me wrong, but any QB would do that. our oline is one of our best units, how you can say were not great because our short yardage is bad is just silly. teams KNOW were running on short yardage because gibbs makes it blatantly clear, so teams get ready. were not the eagles or saints where you have no clue whats coming on 3rd and short. dont fault bugel for that, fault gibbs for being predictable.

[Dirk Diggler]

How soon we forget the Steve Spurrier/Kim Helton era. It's like night and date with the EXACT same cast of players. Name 5 offensive lines who have played better the past 2 seasons? You can't.

If it wasn't for Brunell throwing away some passes it'd be even worse.

Actually, Campbell got sacked less than Brunell. He went down every 30 dropbacks as opposed to Brunell getting taken down every 23 drop backs.

Considering how much the Redskins have invested in the offensive line... it's underperforming horribly.

That's absurd. Why don't you apply the same statistical analysis you use to undress the dline? Take a look at rushing yards and sacks allowed. You'll find that this Oline ranks with the best of em lately. With or without Brunell. With or without Clinton Portis.

Some folks around here are expecting the 1991 Skins. Instead, your perspective should take into account...oh let's see...the 30 other teams who would have traded their line play for ours over the past 2 seasons.

[Warpath11]

Does someone want to explain to me where this "Gregg Williams doesnt need good DL play" theme came from?

Good post, well done, but Im not exactly sure of where you came up with this...I dont think anyone has said he doesn't need good line play (granted I haven't read every post). Rather, we (maybe just I, to myself) are debating of how his philosophies/use of his linemen changed pending on the personel available at each of his different stops and the circumstances under which he has worked...

edit: If I missed a post where someone said he doesn't need good line play...My bad disregard my post