Dispelling a myth about NFL defensive ends - a Gaines Adams thread

[SkinsTillIDie]

Shawne Merriman - 6'4 272 - linebacker - 17 sacks

Aaron Kampman - 6'4 278 - defensive end - 15.5 sacks

Aaron Schobel - 6'4 262 - defensive end - 14 sacks

Jason Taylor - 6'6 255 - defensive end - 13.5 sacks

Trevor Price - 6'5 286 - defensive end - 13 sacks

Julius Peppers - 6'7 283 - defensive end - 13 sacks

Leonard Little - 6'3 263 - defensive end - 13 sacks

Mark Anderson - 6'4 258 - defensive end - 12 sacks

Shaun Phillips - 6'3 262 - linebacker - 11.5 sacks

Demarcus Ware - 6'4 257 - linebacker - 11.5 sacks

Adalius Thomas - 6'2 270 - linebacker - 11 sacks

Derrick Burgess - 6'2 260 - defensive end - 11 sacks

Robert Geathers - 6'3 265 - defensive end - 10.5 sacks

Will Smith - 6'3 282 - defensive end - 10.5 sacks

Bobby McCray - 6'6 261 - defensive end - 10 sacks

Warren Sapp - 6'2 300 - defensive tackle - 10 sacks

Julian Peterson - 6-3 235 - linebacker - 10 sacks

Gaines Adams - 6'4 (3/4), 261

Now look at those names up there, and you will notice that these defensive ends that lead the league in sacks are not the 280, 285 pound defensive ends that people here are claiming that we need. The one big knock on Gaines Adams is that he is too small. However, nearly every scouting report that I have read or heard seems to indicate that he has “room on his frame to get bigger” (see below). Therefore, under the NFL training regimen, we can expect that he could gain, if our training staff deemed it necessary, a good 10 pounds at least. So let’s put him at 6’4 (3/4) and 270 pounds come opening day.

And how does that compare? Remarkably similar to the league leader amongst defensive ends in sacks, Aaron Kampman, at 6’4 and 278. Aaron Schobel is smaller, despite his 14 sacks. Jason Taylor is much smaller. Trevor Price plays in a highly-skilled Baltimore defense, and he plays in a far different 3-4 scheme. Julius Peppers is a freak, and despite his high weight listing, he is still more than 2 inches taller than Adams. Leonard Little is smaller, as is Mark Anderson. Derrick Burgess is much smaller in height, and Robert Geathers is smaller in all. Bobby McCray is lighter as well. And so on and so forth. Will Smith seems to be the lone really big defensive end that put up double digit sacks. Further analysis can be drawn, but I’m trying to keep this post pretty short.

Another myth that is repeated ad nausem on this board is that Adams is very poor against the run and can easily get pushed aside. I truly wonder how many times when a person says this here if he is just repeating what he has heard other ESers say. An instrumental element that Gregg Williams demands of his defensive ends is for them to seal the backside on rushes, something that Adams does rather well. He is extraordinarily quick, being the gifted athlete that he is, and can be “disruptive in the backfield versus the run” (again, see below). This is evidenced by his superb tackles-for-loss statistics, in which he has gathered 15 and 17.5 said tackles in the 2005 and 2006 respective seasons.

Scouts. Inc scouting report, just for good measure:

Strengths: Possesses adequate-to-good height and only decent bulk -- but room on his frame to get bigger. Very agile for the position. Displays explosive first-step quickness and good top-end speed as an edge rusher. Displays very good instincts and awareness as a pass rusher. Has long arms, times his jumps well and does a great job of batting down passes at the line of scrimmage. He also has shown good fluidity when occasionally asked to drop in coverage on zone blitzes. He has improved his discipline and technique versus the run. Does a fine job of sealing off the backside. He gets upfield quickly and can be disruptive in the backfield versus the run. Also shows very good change-of-direction skills in space, which allows him to redirect and pursue as a run defender. He is a hard worker with solid all-around intangibles.

Weaknesses: Lacks ideal bulk and lower-body strength. He will need to improve his size in order to consistently take on NFL blockers. He absorbs too many blocks and doesn't do a consistent enough job of disengaging once reached. Needs to play with more consistent leverage versus the run. Has a tendency to come out of his stance too high and will allow linemen to get into his pads too frequently. He needs to become more consistent as a tackler. He will overextend at times and gets caught lunging or leaving his feet too frequently.

Overall: Adams was redshirted in 2002. He saw action in 12 games as a backup defensive end for the 2003 season, registering 15 total tackles, four tackles for loss, and one sack. Adams played in all 11 contests with just one start (Texas A&M) in 2004 but did win Clemson's defensive 12th man award after recording 35 total tackles, eight tackles for loss, five sacks, and two blocked punts. In 2005, he took over as the starting "bandit" DE and made 56 total tackles, 15 tackles for loss, 9.5 sacks, 29 quarterback pressures, and three forced fumbles. Adams started all 13 games during the 2006 season, finishing with 62 total tackles, 17.5 tackles for loss, 12.5 sacks, two forced fumbles, and three fumble recoveries.

Adams made a wise decision to bypass the 2006 NFL Draft and return for his senior season. He played eight-man football in high school, so he needed the extra time in college to mature both physically and as a player. He still needs to get bigger and do a better job of defending the run, but he has the frame to add at least 15 more pounds and he made noticeable strides in his run-stopping technique during his final season at Clemson. Adams should eventually become a playmaking starter as a 4-3 end in the NFL -- and he also displays enough athletic ability to fit as a 3-4 outside linebacker. Regardless, Adams grades out as the premier defensive end prospect in the 2007 class and he should come off the board within the top-10 picks.

The fact is, Gaines Adams is not much smaller then some of the most impacting defensive ends in the league. We have seen how effective Andre Carter can be after his performances in the second half of last season, and he is no bigger than Gains Adams. I hate the phrase “coach him up,” but Mr. Adams can and will be taught by the defensive coaching staff of whomever drafts him better technique against the run. He will get bigger, and he will get better.

I challenge you to find a player in this draft that does not have weaknesses, aspects of his game that need work. Any player we draft will have such weaknesses. It’s a shame that the perpetuating nonsense of “Gaines Adams is too small; he will get manhandled by bigger tackles” has yet to be ultimately discouraged here. And just for the record, I have been fully on record to being on the draft-Alan-Branch-bandwagon, and still feel that this method is the way to go.

[[[ghost]]]

Great research and all (really) but I sincerely think you should have just posted this in the Gaines Adams thread a few spots down.

That said, I'm starting to like him (again.) Its interesting, considering he was the top person we wanted in December, than that Torch was passed to Branch, than to Anderson, and now its just a toss up (I've even heard people wanting Okoye).

[SkinsWizCubsDukes]

I have to ask, was this thread idea was piggybacked off of an earlier post by yours truly?

Thanks for doing the research.

[SkinsTillIDie]

]']Great research and all (really) but I sincerely think you should have just posted this in the Gaines Adams thread a few spots down.

Thank you. However' date=' when the thread starter in the post below, makes such statements as:

Because our front office goes out out of its way to screw things up as bad as any of us Redskins fan could possibly imagine.

With statements such as these, and a side-discussion on the usage of Hitler as a comparison, to be honest, I didn't really want my post grouped with the circus that is that thread. Nonetheless, I obviously step aside to any moderator that feels compelled to merge this thread.

[Smoot II:The Resurrection]

Great post Skinstillidie, when you hear the same criticisms phrased the same exact way over and over again you really do begin to question how much depth they really have.

[Truant]

Good thread.

I'm officially ok with any of the top Defensive linemen in this draft. It's too bad that we're in position to make a choice between of these guys.

I'd like to slide down a few spots and take Adams, Anderson, Branch, or Okoye.

You've sold me on Adams though. I was in the "he's probably too small considering we already have Andre Carter" camp, but I'm okay with taking Adams.

I was inclined to look at the OTHER DE across from the players that you mentioned, to see if they were paired with a bigger DE, but I think the size issue has been blown a bit out of proportion.

[Drex]

Excellent research. It is great to see an argument that is presented and validated by sound facts.

[SkinsTillIDie]

I have to ask, was this thread idea was piggybacked off of an earlier post by yours truly?

Thanks for doing the research.

I've actually had much of this post saved on my computer, and did decide to finish it after seeing some of that thread. Coincidentally, I think I missed your post

Glad to see that others agree though

I was going to go into further detail about other "big" defensive ends like Mario Williams at 6'7 and 291, but decided against it. I didn't want to bombard those here with too much information.

And another thread for another day is comparing where each defensive end was drafted, and the necessity (or lack thereof) to grab a defensive end in the first round. If you're willing to do the research, feel free

[Skinsinparadise]

I've done variations of your posts when I've argued on behalf of Adams, usually Adams versus Anderson debates -- I've used different players though I've used Strahan and the young 2 DEs the Giants have -- can never spell their names. Adams is as big or bigger than them and is similar size wise to Trent Cole. Thanks for the post because you organized this very well. I too like Adams. As does pretty much EVERY draft geek type, Adams is pretty much across the board the #1 ranked DE.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Unfortunalely, I'm not sure this is really relevant to what people are arguing about Adams.

I don't think many people (if any) have suggested that smaller DEs can't be good pass rushers. The point is that having two smaller, pass-rushing DEs would weaken our run defense.So, I don't see how posting sack totals for smaller guys changes that argument.

It also has nothing to do with Adams being "weak" against the run. It's more about having a small Line in general, which teams would pound, overpower and wear down. Again, that has to do with the net effect of having two of those smaller guys on the ends without particularly big DTs as well. Adams may be decent vs. the run, but he would certainly be a drop-off from Daniels and Wynn, which means our run D, already weak, would get even worse.

Yes, Adams could get bigger. But people are understandably judging him by his weight now. We also don't know that he won't lose his explosiveness if he puts on that 10-15 pounds.

[alwaysaskin]

Good post, nice research, If Adams can seal the back end against the rush, that silences one criticism, I would be OK with Adams, I'm nervous now about Branch and still unsure about Anderson.

[bobzmuda]

I don't know how much I would trust Scouts, Inc.

They were the ones that were saying during the 2005 draft run-up how Jason Campbell was terrible at throwing the deep ball.

[Chump Bailey]

Unfortunalely, I'm not sure this is really relevant to what people are arguing about Adams.

I don't think many people (if any) have suggested that smaller DEs can't be good pass rushers. The point is that having two smaller, pass-rushing DEs would weaken our run defense.So, I don't see how posting sack totals for smaller guys changes that argument.

It also has nothing to do with Adams being "weak" against the run. It's more about having a small Line in general, which teams would pound, overpower and wear down. Again, that has to do with the net effect of having two of those smaller guys on the ends without particularly big DTs as well. Adams may be decent vs. the run, but he would certainly be a drop-off from Daniels and Wynn, which means our run D, already weak, would get even worse.

Yes, Adams could get bigger. But people are understandable judging him by his weight now. We also don't know that he won't lose his explosiveness if he puts on that 10-15 pounds.

My thoughts exactly Rufus...

[scruffylookin]

I really hope we don't pass on Adams simply because of Andre Carter.

If Adams is indeed the top guy, we have to take him. Pure passrushers are nearly impossible to find and if you find them you have to move heaven and earth to keep them. I'd rather draft Adams and sit Carter (assuming we don't want to move Carter to the other side) or even try and trade him (if that's even possible given his contract) than pass on Adams and choose a lesser player because we already have a "small" DE in Carter. Carter has not done nearly enough to warrent passing on a potential bluechip pass rushing defensive end. Something we have not had since the glory days of Manley and Mann.

By the way, thanks for the research SkinsTillIDie. Great work.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Unfortunalely, I'm not sure this is really relevant to what people are arguing about Adams.

I don't think many people (if any) have suggested that smaller DEs can't be good pass rushers. The point is that having two smaller, pass-rushing DEs would weaken our run defense.So, I don't see how posting sack totals for smaller guys changes that argument.

It also has nothing to do with Adams being "weak" against the run. It's more about having a small Line in general, which teams would pound, overpower and wear down. Again, that has to do with the net effect of having two of those smaller guys on the ends without particularly big DTs as well. Adams may be decent vs. the run, but he would certainly be a drop-off from Daniels and Wynn, which means our run D, already weak, would get even worse.

Yes, Adams could get bigger. But people are understandable judging him by his weight now. We also don't know that he won't lose his explosiveness if he puts on that 10-15 pounds.

The point was that Gaines Adams can do it all. Some of the most effective defensive ends in this league are very small, and you would be hard pressed to find someone who would not take one of the aforementioned defensive ends, despite their size (or lack thereof). And obviously, with the drafting of Adams, we would still have Daniels and/or Wynn to anchor that spot on rushing downs, if the coaching staff sees fit. We would have quality depth at that spot, enabling our ends to stay fresh and refrain from being overpowered late in the game.

And all of this talk about Daniels/Wynn being good against the run... Where were they last year? Our run defense was putrid, in comparison to years before, and they also provided an almost non-existent pass rush. And despite Adams' size, he is still effective against the run. He seals the backside very well, which is EXACTLY what Gregg Williams preaches for his defensive ends. And he has shown that he is a force in disrupting running plays in the backfield.

In regards to the rush defense, having a stout middle linebacker like Landon Fletcher should be very beneficial, and I do believe that Rocky McIntosh will breath some fresh life into that OLB spot. Better tackling and more athleticism from our linebackers should help our run defense some. And also, again, I do believe that Alan Branch is the way to go, specifically with his ability to help fortify the run defense (which in turn, with his/Griffin's command of double teams, should help the defensive ends on the outside). That being said, I don't think that Adams would be a liability in the run game. I think that perception is misguided.

Of course, we can't/won't be the best in the league against the pass and run. Look at Minnesota, #1 in the league against the run with their two mammoth tackles, but their pass defense wasn't very good at all (and Kenechi Udeze, starting defensive end of 16 games, had exactly 0 sacks). And then a team like Oakland with their 2 smaller defensive ends and a small tackle with Sapp had a terrific pass rush but was only average against the run. Still, both teams had top 3 defenses, and given the personnel already in place, it seems like Adams would fit right in.

[wilbur58z]

It's not just about height and weight.

It's about how he is physically built, technique, and intangibles as well.

Adams shows no commitment to play the run from what I've seen of him.

He is very flimsy...I do not think is he very tough at all.

Looks almost like a WR playing DE.

You can get away with that in the college game, but he will be beat down in the pros.

He DOES have the frame to add some bulk, however, but that will not change his technique, which is the biggest concern of him.

His technique now is extremely lackadaisical. He just wants to run around people and not physically use his body.

You simply can't play like that in the NFL.

Can he adjust? Maybe.

But Manny Lawson was like this last year, and he got lucky and was drafted by a 3-4 team and avoided having to be in the trenches to start off his NFL career.

I question if that will happen for Adams.

There's been some talk Arizona is going 3-4 because of Whisenhunt, so it's quite possible they will draft Adams and use him as a ROLB, which I think he is best suited for.

But if he goes to a 4-3 team, he will be a couple years away from making an impact.

It would be a bad pick for the Redskins. They need help now.

[TSO]

Good thread, thanks for the research SkinsTillIDie.

I'm really just confused about everything lately. I'm hoping other teams are just as confused by the Skins as I am right now. I've always been in the draft Alan Branch camp as you have also... but if we go DE I don't see a problem there either. It's amazing how size still comes up as important when we are talking about huge men who would hand all of us our asses in an instant. If Adams can seal off his backside well, he should fit in great here.

[dfbovey]

Yeah... Adams should be fine in the NFL in terms of getting pressure on the QB. He's hard to block due to his quickness and athleticism.

The problem with Adams though, is that he's not strong against the run. If we draft an end, it would likely have to be a left end... and that position requires a certain amount of compitancy against the run. Otherwise his pass rush ability would mean nothing. Teams could just run to his side all day.

[FaSho]

Adams Will Be Great.

Nice Post Mate.

[Pedro]

Our run D has suffered up the middle. Hence GA's real or supposed weakness against he run isn't an issue.

What is the issue is stopping the run up the middle.

Will a good DE sealing the other side to AC along with Fletcher solve the problem?

I don't think so.

We need a DT who takes 2 on the line to free up our LBers to hit the runner hard. Just my opinion though.

I'm happy to go along with Adams being good wherever he plays at DE, I just feel we need a fat ass DT.

I like the way ES posters (except me) post facts to support their posts, however every time I'm convinced by facts I remember whatactually happened last season. We need a fat DT.

[Rufus T Firefly]

The point was that Gaines Adams can do it all.

Well, that's obviously your point. Whether it's true or not is another matter. From both what I've seen of him and the reports I've read (including the one you posted), he seems OK vs. the run for a smaller guy. Run D is hardly his strength. Far from it.

Some of the most effective defensive ends in this league are very small, and you would be hard pressed to find someone who would not take one of the aforementioned defensive ends, despite their size (or lack thereof).

Some of the best pass rushing ends are very small. Those guys, by and large, are all also considered weaknesses at the point of attack. Even guys like Jason Taylor and Dwight Freeney, the book is "run right at them". Even from the list you posted in the OP, I see a list of guys who are either decent size, or are only used in 3rd and long (Anderson and McCray), and a bunch who are mediocre (at best) run defenders.

And, again, the issue is having two guys who can be run rigth at, whether they are considered decent vs. the run or not. Two DEs who can be overpowered by large OTs are going to create a problem. You can help to cover for one (lining up SS close to him, for example), but for two is pretty impossible.

Yes, if you ask most GMs "Would you like to have Jason Taylor?", the answer will be yes, for whatever that's worth.

And obviously, with the drafting of Adams, we would still have Daniels and/or Wynn to anchor that spot on rushing downs, if the coaching staff sees fit. We would have quality depth at that spot, enabling our ends to stay fresh and refrain from being overpowered late in the game.

Yes, but what about when both Adams and Carter are both on the field? You can't avoid that, or require teams to tell us when they're going to run so we can take one out. I realize your main point here is about them being worn down, but that's only one issue. And in order to do that, you are going to have to get close to making them both part time players. Sitting them 10% of the plays won't help much.

Daniels and Wynn will both hopefully be gone in a year. Drafting Adams I fear gets us in a position where we will have to spend starter money on a replacement, just to try to limit the damage our undersized Es would cause.

And all of this talk about Daniels/Wynn being good against the run... Where were they last year? Our run defense was putrid, in comparison to years before, and they also provided an almost non-existent pass rush. And despite Adams' size, he is still effective against the run. He seals the backside very well, which is EXACTLY what Gregg Williams preaches for his defensive ends. And he has shown that he is a force in disrupting running plays in the backfield.

Daniels and Wynn are still both good against the run. The problem last year was the injuries to Griffin and Salave'a. Not to mention bringing in Carter weakened our run D. Which kind of goes to what I've been saying.

Again, Adams being good at sealing the backside is nice, but it doesn't help when teams are running right at him behind 325 pound DEs.

In regards to the rush defense, having a stout middle linebacker like Landon Fletcher should be very beneficial, and I do believe that Rocky McIntosh will breath some fresh life into that OLB spot. Better tackling and more athleticism from our linebackers should help our run defense some.

Improved LB play will help. But it's not the end-all, be-all. Also, a small line will cause teams to run at us more, plus have more blockers to go at the LBs. Adding a guy like Adams probably takes quite a bit away from the LBs. And think our run D needs more than "some" help.

And also, again, I do believe that Alan Branch is the way to go, specifically with his ability to help fortify the run defense (which in turn, with his/Griffin's command of double teams, should help the defensive ends on the outside). That being said, I don't think that Adams would be a liability in the run game. I think that perception is misguided.

Basically, I agree with you on Branch and , as I hope I've explained, disagree on Adams being a liability vs. the run.

Of course, we can't/won't be the best in the league against the pass and run. Look at Minnesota, #1 in the league against the run with their two mammoth tackles, but their pass defense wasn't very good at all (and Kenechi Udeze, starting defensive end of 16 games, had exactly 0 sacks). And then a team like Oakland with their 2 smaller defensive ends and a small tackle with Sapp had a terrific pass rush but was only average against the run. Still, both teams had top 3 defenses, and given the personnel already in place, it seems like Adams would fit right in.

Oakland started a 280 pound DE and a 335 pound DT, for the record.

No, we probably won't be top 10 vs. both the run and pass anytime soon (though we pulled it off in 04, and both Baltimore and Jacksonville managed it last year). But that hardly means we should make a major move that will actively WEAKEN us in one of those areas.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Yeah... Adams should be fine in the NFL in terms of getting pressure on the QB. He's hard to block due to his quickness and athleticism.

The problem with Adams though, is that he's not strong against the run. If we draft an end, it would likely have to be a left end... and that position requires a certain amount of compitancy against the run. Otherwise his pass rush ability would mean nothing. Teams could just run to his side all day.

Did you just say you have to be constipated to play the run, or did I misread that?

[Peregrine]

Good research.

So basicaly, if we want the best pass rusher in the draft, its probobly a safe bet to draft Gaines Adams. I think even people that dont want to draft him would mostly agree with you that he would definately help us get more sacks. But I think what people say about him is that he isnt big enough to stop the run.

You seem to have two camps here, those who want to draft a DE that can stuff the run, and those who want one that can pass rush. My opinion is that, while DE do help with the run, the DE position is more geared toward getting to the QB and getting penetration. Speed is more important than size in that case.

[[[ghost]]]

Thank you. However, when the thread starter in the post below, makes such statements as:

With statements such as these, and a side-discussion on the usage of Hitler as a comparison, to be honest, I didn't really want my post grouped with the circus that is that thread. Nonetheless, I obviously step aside to any moderator that feels compelled to merge this thread.

Yea, good point. You're thread is far more useful and thought-out then that guys.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Well, that's obviously your point. Whether it's true or not is another matter. From both what I've seen of him and the reports I've read (including the one you posted), he seems OK vs. the run for a smaller guy. Run D is hardly his strength. Far from it.

etc. etc.

You make all very good points, and I stand corrected on the Oakland example. However, if you take a look at a team like Indianapolis, in the playoffs, no one could run on them. They have a tiny line, but with the addendum of Bob Sanders in the playoffs, they shut down the Chiefs running game, Ravens, and then the Patriots, before cruising against the Bears. You don't have to have big defensive ends to be successful against the run, it's a lot about scheme, players being where they are supposed to be, and players finishing tackles.

A defensive end that can rush the passer with the best of them is far more valuable than a defensive end that is good against the run and mediocre at best at pass rush. If our defensive ends can engage their blockers, it will allow our linebackers (of which the Redskins are clearly placing a premium on) to make the tackles that they are supposed to. Two years ago, we were one of the best tackling teams in the league, if memory serves me right. Last year, Marshall and his poor shoulder and Holdman both missed far too many plays and were largely ineffective.

And one more point - Gaines Adams' youth and pure athleticism can surely help make up for the 15 pounds or so that Phillip Daniels and Renaldo Wynn have on their tired and aging bodies?