Dispelling a myth about NFL defensive ends - a Gaines Adams thread

[Langford78]

I think alot of FO people across the NFL have an idea of what size a player who plays a position should be. Many times, they refuse to think that a player who dosn't fit that mold will make it in the NFL, regardless of how well they may have played in college. The same thing goes with the combine. There are TONS of stars all over the league who didn't have incredible combine numbers.

[nemocystem]

Unfortunalely, I'm not sure this is really relevant to what people are arguing about Adams.

I don't think many people (if any) have suggested that smaller DEs can't be good pass rushers. The point is that having two smaller, pass-rushing DEs would weaken our run defense.So, I don't see how posting sack totals for smaller guys changes that argument.

It also has nothing to do with Adams being "weak" against the run. It's more about having a small Line in general, which teams would pound, overpower and wear down. Again, that has to do with the net effect of having two of those smaller guys on the ends without particularly big DTs as well. Adams may be decent vs. the run, but he would certainly be a drop-off from Daniels and Wynn, which means our run D, already weak, would get even worse.

Yes, Adams could get bigger. But people are understandably judging him by his weight now. We also don't know that he won't lose his explosiveness if he puts on that 10-15 pounds.

exactamundo...that & he wasn't exactly stout against the run in College either.

last thing we need is two pass-rush specialists at DE when eveyone is crying about our rush D.

and comparing anyone in the current draft class to Jason Taylor is getting waaaay ahead of ourselves here. you can't measure his ability to read plays, his knowledge of football & his pure atheletic abilities. well...maybe you can measure some of his atheletic abilities, but he's always in the right place because he knows where he should be based on what the offense is trying to do.

[MoeRedskins]

I thought the main knock on Adams was that he was lazy and not a hard worker?

[Dick Edds]

Adam's is fine against the run, there are no stats or any other measurables that I have seen to date that show Adam's is weak against the run. It is a myth that has been placed on him because he has a smaller upperbody by the mediots and the combine freaks. I'm still waiting for someone to show evidence of this "run defense" weakness, other than stating the same thing we hear from a few scouts on ESPN. Still no proof in the pudding to support this claim.

[Zen-like Todd]

Adam's is fine against the run, there are no stats or any other measurables that I have seen to date that show Adam's is weak against the run. It is a myth that has been placed on him because he has a smaller upperbody by the mediots and the combine freaks. I'm still waiting for someone to show evidence of this "run defense" weakness, other than stating the same thing we hear from a few scouts on ESPN. Still no proof in the pudding to support this claim.

It's a false question... there are no individual run defense stats. There are team rush defense stats, and those are heavily impacted by fellow defensive personnel and opponents. Not to be rude, but your post makes no sense whatsoever. This isn't madden. There's no rush defense attribute. You rely on your eyes, and your scouts. Seriously, did you expect ANYONE to buy into this line of reasoning? Jesus Christ people.

[Lombardi's_kid_brother]

sknstillidie......great post my friend. The most dominating player to ever play defense and who changed the game...Laurence Taylor was 6-4 and 245....and he lined up in a 3-4 defense as a pass rushing DEFENSIVE END.

Is there anyone who ever said he was too small to play defensive end.

There are too many EXPERTS on this board who know absolutely nuthin, and I mean nuthin...about football. They just like hearing themselves talk.

Now study the differences between a 3-4 and 4-3 and get back to me.

Also, do a little research on the size of offensive lineman in 1986 versus their size in 2007.

Taylor was huge for an OLB in the 80s, the 3-4 has an entirely different philosphy behind it than what Williams runs, and you are comparing players across a generation.

[Guest Knightwchmn]

I have said from the beginning... Gaines Adams is the man!! He is what we need... not another LB (Lance Briggs), but a pure pass rusher - a freak!!

Good work on the stat list!!

:helmet:

[Dick Edds]

It's a false question... there are no individual run defense stats. There are team rush defense stats, and those are heavily impacted by fellow defensive personnel and opponents. Not to be rude, but your post makes no sense whatsoever. This isn't madden. There's no rush defense attribute. You rely on your eyes, and your scouts. Seriously, did you expect ANYONE to buy into this line of reasoning? Jesus Christ people.

I wasn't trying to offend anyone, so I apologze if I came across that way, if so, my bad.

But, if that's a false question; then it is a false statement to begin with to say he is "weak against the run". And that was kind of my point, I wasn't trying to fool anybody, I was just trying to get some folks to think "out of the box" ... and I was hoping for maybe a few references to games that showed where he wasn't able to defned the run. For instance how many times oppsoing teams ran to his side of the ball for substantial gains, etc.

That info may be out there somewhere, it just hasn't been compiled, and I would be the first person to concede the fact of his "run weakness" if it could be shown that when oppsoiung teams ran to his side of the ball that he wasn't effective, etc. So ... not to be rude ... but the claim that "Gaine's is weak against the run" makes no more sense than me asking for proof of it. It's not the homer in me that disagrees with these claims, it's from what I saw "with my own eyes" throughout his college career that leads me to believe that Adam's did excell against the run.

And for the record, I don't play Madden nor do I even have an xbox or whatever the latest gaming system is. I'm not syaing the argument isn;t worthy of discussion, I am saying it's not an argument that has valid support or research to claim such.

[Ryman of the North]

sknstillidie......great post my friend. The most dominating player to ever play defense and who changed the game...Laurence Taylor was 6-4 and 245....and he lined up in a 3-4 defense as a pass rushing DEFENSIVE END.

Is there anyone who ever said he was too small to play defensive end.

There are too many EXPERTS on this board who know absolutely nuthin, and I mean nuthin...about football. They just like hearing themselves talk.

are you for real? LT was an OLB in a 3-4 I am a redskins fan but I was a huge LT fan having played OLB in high school, Gibbs designed the 2te system to neutralise the 3-4 and LT in particular. seriously before making a proclaimmation like that you better go back and watch some film because dude you just got owned. that was one of the most ridiculous statements I have read on here.

I was going to stay silent and luagh at all the backslapping and "good thread" " nice research", LOL LMAO its funny to watch.

1- In OUR SYSTEM adams would not fit as he is known as a pure pass rusher, will he develope into a simeon rice type who is decent against the run? maybe but we need a guy who can do it now. not all thin DE's are terribe against the run but they usually take a while to get to be decent in the NFL, guys who are terrible VS the run in college rarerly improve that much (BTW Rice was an OLB in a 3-4 in college) Jason Taylor is actually pretty good aaginst the run but he uses leverage and desire.

2-Adams is highly ranked because of his pass rush ability and his explosiveness nothing more. honestly in the right system he will be a beast but not in ours unless we got rid of Carter.

3-In almost any 4-3 you have a rush end and a base end, base ends do the dirty work and the rush gets the sngle teams, we have Carter to play rush and are using a combo of Daniels and Wynn at the base, Anderson and maybe carriker would be solid base ends in our system.

4- stop using misleading facts to make an argument, I applaud that you actually did do SOME research but seriously comparing 4-3 Blitz and man ends to tampa 2 ends is silly, in actuality you got owwed in that argument anyway as the Colts had an atrocious run defence and YES their ends are a huge part of that.

5- you actually made my point for me, Ends play the run no matter their size height and weight as long as they show the desire to do it, Adams has not shown that at all.

the best all around end in history was Reggie White at 6-5 305, the closest thing physically to him right now is prolly Anderson (Reggie was not crazy strong coming out of college) bottom line is Adams may be decent and at worst will be a great 3rd down rusher but Anderson has the most poetential to help us NOW.

[Killerbo]

bump...getting irritated with the Gaines bashing again by people without a clue of what a DE number one goal is ........ GET TO THE QB!

[#98QBKiller]

bump...getting irritated with the Gaines bashing again by people without a clue of what a DE number one goal is ........ GET TO THE QB!

Good bump. This is a solid thread in the fact that it disproves the myth that great DEs need to be the size of Julius Peppers.

[Ryman of the North]

No a DE's main job is keeping contain and stooping the run, then rushing the passer, the best passers complete about 65% of their passes, the best runners can grind it out all day. I like having an explosive pass rush but when we have a solid all around d we get by just fine, its when we have no coverage and poor linebacker play that we struggle. In a perfect worl we would have a guy like Reggie White who dominates both facets but tahst rare. I think that if we did not have carter to fill the rush spot I wouldn't mind taking a flyer on adams but as we do and as he seems to have the light coming on I would rather have Anderson, Carriker or at best CJ to help out on O.

[Hamilbone13]

Thanks for the research. We definitely need a D-lineman!! Worst pass rush in the NFL means that the DBs will again be left out to dry!!

[Rex Tomb]

I want to know what the reaction of people is to Alan Branch. Talk about him has died down considerably. The space-eating DT is a mammoth and would help the DEs get one on one, thereby stopping the run up the middle and making it easier for the passrush to be effective. The linebackers will also be able to be free to roam and wreak havoc. So much talk about Gaines Adams, but if our DTs suck, we'll get gashed up the middle again all season long.

[seancarter]

I want to know what the reaction of people is to Alan Branch. Talk about him has died down considerably. The space-eating DT is a mammoth and would help the DEs get one on one, thereby stopping the run up the middle and making it easier for the passrush to be effective. The linebackers will also be able to be free to roam and wreak havoc. So much talk about Gaines Adams, but if our DTs suck, we'll get gashed up the middle again all season long.

He speaks the truth! :applause:

[Ryman of the North]

Heres the Thought on Alan Branch, if he let himself get fatter and out of shape on the verge of signing a huge contract whats he gonna do when he signs a multimillion dollar contract that tells he never has to work again? Ths biggest problem with big guys coming out of college is that if they dont have reason to work hard they dont and if an already large man gets out of shape then they go downhill fast(why else do you think guys play so hard in "contract" years). Branch showing up fatter and out of shape for his pro day may have cost him because it showed that even with great sums of money on the line he is Lazy. I would prefer a guy like Okoye who showed up at his pro day in better shape but frankly he is not the type of DT we need right now (he is almost worth it on upside alone though)

Its a myth that all large men are out of shape, some very big men can be in crazy shape but they just carry more weight. you can tell when a guy is out of shape because he gets gassed and quits like Branch did during his drills. I would pass on branch because his intangibles are nowheer near his tangibles, too bad because he could be a beast if the light went on.

[JaimeDeCurry]

bump...getting irritated with the Gaines bashing again by people without a clue of what a DE number one goal is ........ GET TO THE QB!

Dude, that's so wrong. As someone who played DE from pee-wee all the way through the end of high school, I have to comment on this. An end's first job is always, ALWAYS, contain the outside and force any potential runner back in towards your linebackers and other linemen. The only time rushing the passer is your number one goal is if a stunt is called that has you specifically blitzing. Every defense in the world (even our aggressive 4-4 from youth and high school) focuses on stopping the run first. If a team can run on you, everything else goes to hell. If you force a team to pass on you, a lot more bad things can happen for them than good (except if your name is Manning or Brady).

Every offense tries to establish the run, and every defense tries to shut the run down. Every DE has been taught to contain the outside running holes/lanes first, THEN try to get into the backfield.

[JaimeDeCurry]

EDIT: Random double post?

[Ryman of the North]

Dude, that's so wrong. As someone who played DE from pee-wee all the way through the end of high school, I have to comment on this. An end's first job is always, ALWAYS, contain the outside and force any potential runner back in towards your linebackers and other linemen. The only time rushing the passer is your number one goal is if a stunt is called that has you specifically blitzing. Every defense in the world (even our aggressive 4-4 from youth and high school) focuses on stopping the run first. If a team can run on you, everything else goes to hell. If you force a team to pass on you, a lot more bad things can happen for them than good (except if your name is Manning or Brady).

Every offense tries to establish the run, and every defense tries to shut the run down. Every DE has been taught to contain the outside running holes/lanes first, THEN try to get into the backfield.

Thank you I was starting to wonder if we did things in Canada differently lol wait a sec we actually throw more in Canadian rules so why would we play the run first?

Heres one thing I have learned, even coaches who have not played on the line have strange ideas of what goes on so guys who have never played any football would be clueless, if all you veer heard was how awesome sack totals were you would not know that some of the best linemen in the NFL don't put up huge numbers but they make iot so that their teammates can put up numbers.