Dispelling a myth about NFL defensive ends - a Gaines Adams thread

[Rufus T Firefly]

However, if you take a look at a team like Indianapolis, in the playoffs, no one could run on them. They have a tiny line, but with the addendum of Bob Sanders in the playoffs, they shut down the Chiefs running game, Ravens, and then the Patriots, before cruising against the Bears. You don't have to have big defensive ends to be successful against the run, it's a lot about scheme, players being where they are supposed to be, and players finishing tackles.

Indy was 32nd last year against the run. The story of their post-season "dominance" vs. the run is one of the most overblown stories ever. Baltimore averaged 4.2 Yards Per Carry against them, after they averaged 3.5 YPC all year. Hardly a "shut down" there. The Pats obviosuly scored 34 points, I don't see any reason to look up stats for that game as the Pats clearly moved the ball well. Chicago averaged 5.8 YPC in the Super Bowl, after 3.8 during the season. So three of the four teams they played didn't get "shut down" by the Indy run D. KC obviously did, as Indy overplayed the run and Green couldn't make them pay for it.

Of course, Indy's great run defense didn't help them in the previous few post-seasons either.

A defensive end that can rush the passer with the best of them is far more valuable than a defensive end that is good against the run and mediocre at best at pass rush.

Well, player A will certainly make more money than player B. Whether that means player A fits our team more is another matter entirely.

If our defensive ends can engage their blockers, it will allow our linebackers (of which the Redskins are clearly placing a premium on) to make the tackles that they are supposed to. Two years ago, we were one of the best tackling teams in the league, if memory serves me right. Last year, Marshall and his poor shoulder and Holdman both missed far too many plays and were largely ineffective.

As I said, if the DEs are Adams and Carter, they will both get overrun by much bigger OL, and actually get our LBs blocked more. In other words, saying "they just need to engage blockers" is fine, but they won't. And just thinking better LBs will make us a great run defense is pretty foolish. The guys we played there for the most of last year (Marshall, Washington and Holdman) were the same guys who took the majority of PT in 05. And yet the run D fell from 13th in the league to 27th. If it was all the LBs, why was it so much better with the same guys a year earlier?

And one more point - Gaines Adams' youth and pure athleticism can surely help make up for the 15 pounds or so that Phillip Daniels and Renaldo Wynn have on their tired and aging bodies?

If you're claiming Adams is better vs. the run than Daniels and Wynn, then no he isn't. If you're just claiming that he will probably be a better player, then yes. But Jamal Anderson probably will be as well. Likewise Branch and Okoye will likely be better than Salave'a. And Landry vs. PP, etc. Don't know what that proves.

[JoeGibbsThickandthin]

Greg Williams and Blache do not belive in pure pass rushing defensiv ends for their system. It makes no sense to me. And i think it is stupid but Greg Williams wants linebackers, safetys and corners.He does not like pass rushers. He did not like Lavar because he was a free lancer. They got Andre Carter because they thought he cover a TE if he had too.

The defense does not make sense to me. You would think every coach would want two pass rushers that can get 10 sacks each so you do not have to blitz. But Greg Williams sends those clown corner blitzes that never work.

Thats why i say we might as trade up and draft Calvin Johnson.

[cober]

The long term view is that who ever you draft this year will at best be part time starter. I doubt any draft choice will be a first game starter. But in my view Adams could be a very good choice long term.

In 2007 Adams would be used as 3rd down passing situation rusher. This would help to evaluate him. I view him as long term replacement for Carter who in 3 years time will lost a lot of his zip.

A run stuffing DE would be a lot easier to pickup in next years draft in 2nd or 3rd rounds. Of course if Adams is a bust then your screwed. Course you could argue that anyone you draft could be a bust. So i fail to see that as an argument against drafting a him.

[dfbovey]

I don't buy that Williams doesn't want pass rushers. He had Kearse in his prime when he was in Tennessee. He had strong pass rushers at the end position in Buffalo as well. My guess is that he'd welcome that kind of production here.

[JoeGibbsThickandthin]

I don't buy that Williams doesn't want pass rushers. He had Kearse in his prime when he was in Tennessee. He had strong pass rushers at the end position in Buffalo as well. My guess is that he'd welcome that kind of production here.

Blache said it in a interview in 05. They asked if they will get a pure pass rusher. He said " we do not need them in our system"

My boys were pissed. They were like screw your system.

And he could of had Kerse. They instead signed other players. Hell they could of had Kerney his year. He signed a corner and linebacker.

[Rufus T Firefly]

I don't buy that Williams doesn't want pass rushers. He had Kearse in his prime when he was in Tennessee. He had strong pass rushers at the end position in Buffalo as well. My guess is that he'd welcome that kind of production here.

And they spent a lot on Carter for a reason, I would assume.

[MrJL]

So what's the case about Anderson?

[MrJL]

And they spent a lot on Carter for a reason, I would assume.

Speaking of Carter, he kind of came on at the end of the season. ANyone think he'll start out that way this year?

[seancarter]

Speaking of Carter, he kind of came on at the end of the season. ANyone think he'll start out that way this year?

I sure hope so. In an interview Carter said the difference was that in the beginning they were lining him up on the inside, and towards the end they lined him up on the outside. If this is true, then he should be able to start the way he ended last season.

[Yomar The Nifty]

I will be very happy if the Redskins take Gaines Adams, even if it doesn't work out, it would be a tough move to argue with. Personally I want Jamaal Anderson, I like everything I have read on him, I think he offers the same pass rushing threat that Gaines does and is already the combo of size speed, you want with a lot of room for improvement on his upper body. Only a few guys on that list ran a 40 slower than Adams but faster than Anderson and thats the only thing I see Adams having an edge on Anderson (without having seen a lot of either actually playing football)

[Peregrine]

Yeah I too really like what I know about Anderson(admittedly not much). Hes still a valid pass rushing threat(In fact I thought his sack total was very close to Adams, around 1 per game), yet he also can play as a run stopper. Hes kind of an all around DE, which really gives him the ability to be a pro-bowler in the future, rather than just a one-trick pony.

[SkinsTillIDie]

Indy was 32nd last year against the run. The story of their post-season "dominance" vs. the run is one of the most overblown stories ever. Baltimore averaged 4.2 Yards Per Carry against them, after they averaged 3.5 YPC all year. Hardly a "shut down" there. The Pats obviosuly scored 34 points, I don't see any reason to look up stats for that game as the Pats clearly moved the ball well. Chicago averaged 5.8 YPC in the Super Bowl, after 3.8 during the season. So three of the four teams they played didn't get "shut down" by the Indy run D. KC obviously did, as Indy overplayed the run and Green couldn't make them pay for it.

Of course, Indy's great run defense didn't help them in the previous few post-seasons either.

My point was that a team can play the run well despite smaller defensive ends. One would be a fool to believe that the Colts were 32nd in the league due to their defensive ends. They were an abysmally horrendous tackling team, and they had shoddy defensive tackle play at best. And as a whole, their defense was small. However, 2.6 yards per carry for the Chiefs, when they were expected to run all over the Colts? And 14 total points in two playoff games allowed by Indi, and Baltimore's mammoth offensive line could never create the advantages against such a small defensive line (Ogden v Freeney, for example). 20 carries for 82 yards for the Ravens? Hell, give me those numbers any day, I don't see why you are complaining. And the Patriots averaged 3.9 yards per rush, and only scored 2 offensive touchdowns, so I don't really see the Colts-D bashing justified there. And if you take away Thomas Jones' outlying 52-yard run, the Colts held the Bears to 59 yards on 18 carries, for a measly 3.27 yard average.

Therefore, given these statistics, in the 4 playoff games the Colts played with 2 very small defensive ends:

Chiefs - 2.6

Ravens - 4.2

Patriots - 3.9

Bears - 3.8

We can get into semantics all we want, but the Colts proved against the best competition that you CAN win with two smaller defensive ends. And they won with defense too.

Well, player A will certainly make more money than player B. Whether that means player A fits our team more is another matter entirely.

If Gaines Adams came in on passing downs, IE 2nd or 3rd and long, I think he would fit our system very well, and provide us with a superb pass rush opposite of Andre Carter, one of whom would have to be given single coverage.

As I said, if the DEs are Adams and Carter, they will both get overrun by much bigger OL, and actually get our LBs blocked more. In other words, saying "they just need to engage blockers" is fine, but they won't. And just thinking better LBs will make us a great run defense is pretty foolish. The guys we played there for the most of last year (Marshall, Washington and Holdman) were the same guys who took the majority of PT in 05. And yet the run D fell from 13th in the league to 27th. If it was all the LBs, why was it so much better with the same guys a year earlier?

What do you mean by overrun? In that, the offensive lineman pancakes the defensive end off the snap, then run down the field, and blocks a linebacker? All in a couple of seconds?

And don't forget, the Bears played with Adewale Ogunleye (6'4 260) and Mark Anderson (6'4 258) and you would be hard pressed to find anyone here complaining about that line.

If you're claiming Adams is better vs. the run than Daniels and Wynn, then no he isn't. If you're just claiming that he will probably be a better player, then yes. But Jamal Anderson probably will be as well. Likewise Branch and Okoye will likely be better than Salave'a. And Landry vs. PP, etc. Don't know what that proves.

My point was that height and weight should not be used as standard measures to differentiate between one's ability in some regard. No player would be considered at the #6 pick overall if he were such a liability against the run that many make him out to be.

[Rufus T Firefly]

My point was that a team can play the run well despite smaller defensive ends. One would be a fool to believe that the Colts were 32nd in the league due to their defensive ends. They were an abysmally horrendous tackling team, and they had shoddy defensive tackle play at best. And as a whole, their defense was small. However, 2.6 yards per carry for the Chiefs, when they were expected to run all over the Colts? And 14 total points in two playoff games allowed by Indi, and Baltimore's mammoth offensive line could never create the advantages against such a small defensive line (Ogden v Freeney, for example). 20 carries for 82 yards for the Ravens? Hell, give me those numbers any day, I don't see why you are complaining. And the Patriots averaged 3.9 yards per rush, and only scored 2 offensive touchdowns, so I don't really see the Colts-D bashing justified there. And if you take away Thomas Jones' outlying 52-yard run, the Colts held the Bears to 59 yards on 18 carries, for a measly 3.27 yard average.

Therefore, given these statistics, in the 4 playoff games the Colts played with 2 very small defensive ends:

Chiefs - 2.6

Ravens - 4.2

Patriots - 3.9

Bears - 3.8

We can get into semantics all we want, but the Colts proved against the best competition that you CAN win with two smaller defensive ends. And they won with defense too .

Sure, you can win with two smaller DEs. Who said you couldn't? You can win with a crappy QB, too, but that doesn't mean it's a great idea to get one.

Baltimore was a TERRIBLE running offense that increased their YPC by 20% in that game. They stopped running because they were behind in that game. That hardly makes it a great day by the Run D. New England scored 27 points on offense that day and it would have been more if Reche Caldwell could hold onto a pass. They stopped running because the passing game was working, not because Indy shut them down. And yeah, take out Chicago's big run and their day looks less great? So what? You want to hold up the league's worst rushing D as an example of a GOOD rushing D, and now we have to take out any big plays against them, too? That's a little ridiculous. How about we take out Grossman's two "carries" for zero yards instead, and then look at the numbers? That would more relevant.

If Gaines Adams came in on passing downs, IE 2nd or 3rd and long, I think he would fit our system very well, and provide us with a superb pass rush opposite of Andre Carter, one of whom would have to be given single coverage.

As I said, you're now talking about the #6 pick and a $30+ million contract for a part-time player. Not excited about that one.

What do you mean by overrun? In that, the offensive lineman pancakes the defensive end off the snap, then run down the field, and blocks a linebacker? All in a couple of seconds?

And don't forget, the Bears played with Adewale Ogunleye (6'4 260) and Mark Anderson (6'4 258) and you would be hard pressed to find anyone here complaining about that line.

I'm talking about (as I explained) one big OT plowing over each of our DEs, leaving plenty of available blockers to go after out LBs.

And Chicago plays with a smaller D-Line, but also one of the best groups of LBs in the game, and a very good backfield. Also, those lineman are exceptional, while smaller. And, with all that, their run D was suspect. Since you keep wanting to talk post-season, the Bears' Run D was, at best, mediocre in the playoffs.

My point was that height and weight should not be used as standard measures to differentiate between one's ability in some regard. No player would be considered at the #6 pick overall if he were such a liability against the run that many make him out to be.

Yeah, he would be. Because he's a top-notch pass rusher. Freeney, Taylor and others are bad agains the run but still get paid because they can get sacks. That's the type of player Adams will be (if that good, of course).

[TheLongshot]

The problem is, no matter how you analyse Adams, there is one point is is always going to come back to:

The DL philosophy is one of stopping the run first, and rushing the passer second.

It is for that reason that a guy like Adams wouldn't be a prime target for us. It doesn't matter that Adams can be decent against the run, it is just that the style of end he plays is not compatible with what we use our ends for. When Williams wants a lighter, pass rushing guy, he puts a LB on the line to rush.

This is why a guy like Anderson or Carriker would probably be a better fit. These are guys who are good run guys who can also get after the QB.

Jason

[Rufus T Firefly]

The problem is, no matter how you analyse Adams, there is one point is is always going to come back to:

The DL philosophy is one of stopping the run first, and rushing the passer second.

It is for that reason that a guy like Adams wouldn't be a prime target for us. It doesn't matter that Adams can be decent against the run, it is just that the style of end he plays is not compatible with what we use our ends for. When Williams wants a lighter, pass rushing guy, he puts a LB on the line to rush.

This is why a guy like Anderson or Carriker would probably be a better fit. These are guys who are good run guys who can also get after the QB.

Jason

Basically.

[SkinsTillIDie]

I guess starting a 290 lb defensive end last year was why we had such a terrific run defense. It all makes sense now.

[Morneblade]

The point was that Gaines Adams can do it all. Some of the most effective defensive ends in this league are very small, and you would be hard pressed to find someone who would not take one of the aforementioned defensive ends, despite their size (or lack thereof). And obviously, with the drafting of Adams, we would still have Daniels and/or Wynn to anchor that spot on rushing downs, if the coaching staff sees fit. We would have quality depth at that spot, enabling our ends to stay fresh and refrain from being overpowered late in the game.

No, it was that Gaines was a great pass rusher. Nothing in there about his run defences, which has been discribed as suspect. We already have one guy that is a smallish DE, and adding another that is small and not good against the run would be a bad fit for us.

And all of this talk about Daniels/Wynn being good against the run... Where were they last year? Our run defense was putrid, in comparison to years before, and they also provided an almost non-existent pass rush. And despite Adams' size, he is still effective against the run. He seals the backside very well, which is EXACTLY what Gregg Williams preaches for his defensive ends. And he has shown that he is a force in disrupting running plays in the backfield.

I must have missed those descussions, I dont remember many people saying either of those guys could actually play much anymore, period.

In regards to the rush defense, having a stout middle linebacker like Landon Fletcher should be very beneficial, and I do believe that Rocky McIntosh will breath some fresh life into that OLB spot. Better tackling and more athleticism from our linebackers should help our run defense some. And also, again, I do believe that Alan Branch is the way to go, specifically with his ability to help fortify the run defense (which in turn, with his/Griffin's command of double teams, should help the defensive ends on the outside). That being said, I don't think that Adams would be a liability in the run game. I think that perception is misguided.

Why not, it's been reported he's not very good against it in a weak ACC conference. I dont see him being better at the NFL level.

Of course, we can't/won't be the best in the league against the pass and run. Look at Minnesota, #1 in the league against the run with their two mammoth tackles, but their pass defense wasn't very good at all (and Kenechi Udeze, starting defensive end of 16 games, had exactly 0 sacks). And then a team like Oakland with their 2 smaller defensive ends and a small tackle with Sapp had a terrific pass rush but was only average against the run. Still, both teams had top 3 defenses, and given the personnel already in place, it seems like Adams would fit right in.

Well, I dont think he would be a good fit for our team. I think he could be a great player in a different situation (Tampa) but we need a more well rounded DE I think (Anderson) than just a pass rushing specialist, which is what Gaines is. If we were really soild inthe middle of our line he'd be a good fit, but the entire DL (outside of Carter) is kinda shacky right now. Griff is good, but will not play a full season. Neither will Sal (and he isnt so good anymore) Golston is solid, buthe is a one gap DT like Griff, and Daneils and Wynn are done.

[Peregrine]

The problem is, no matter how you analyse Adams, there is one point is is always going to come back to:

The DL philosophy is one of stopping the run first, and rushing the passer second.

It is for that reason that a guy like Adams wouldn't be a prime target for us. It doesn't matter that Adams can be decent against the run, it is just that the style of end he plays is not compatible with what we use our ends for. When Williams wants a lighter, pass rushing guy, he puts a LB on the line to rush.

This is why a guy like Anderson or Carriker would probably be a better fit. These are guys who are good run guys who can also get after the QB.

Jason

Im not sure id agree with that. Any particular reason why the DL philosophy has to be stopping the run first and rushing the passer second(you also arent seperating the roles of DT and DE here)? Also, certainly this changes from team to team doesnt it(colts get an early lead so DL job is to rush the passer primarily)?

Though I like Anderson because hes almost as much of a pass rush threat as Adams, and yet can stop the run as well.

[Killerbo]

Bump, I also don't understand where this myth that he "takes plays off" and is weak against the run comes from. The kid is a BEAST and single-handedly won games for Clemson on his game changing plays. Like the one where he blocks a FG and takes it back for a TD. The kid is going to be great but it's a shame bcos the Cards will definitely take this kid. Mark my words, he will be another Simeon Rice.

[Dick Edds]

I really hope we don't pass on Adams simply because of Andre Carter.

If Adams is indeed the top guy, we have to take him. Pure passrushers are nearly impossible to find and if you find them you have to move heaven and earth to keep them. I'd rather draft Adams and sit Carter (assuming we don't want to move Carter to the other side) or even try and trade him (if that's even possible given his contract) than pass on Adams and choose a lesser player because we already have a "small" DE in Carter. Carter has not done nearly enough to warrent passing on a potential bluechip pass rushing defensive end. Something we have not had since the glory days of Manley and Mann.

By the way, thanks for the research SkinsTillIDie. Great work.

excellent counter-post ... I couldn't agree more. When is the last time we "knew" what we had on our dfesne from one year to another? Although Carter came on strong towards the end of the year ... we can't neccesarily pass up a rushing end like Adam's because of that. Drafrting Adam's doesn't mean that he starts every play regardless of the situation, obvioulsy he would be used more heavily in pass rushing situations, but it would be premature to conclude that he cannot play the type of DE that we need to be successful. Every player on the field needs to do their job and work hand-in-hand to be a successful defense.

You don't pass on that type of talent because of what you think you have or what potential you think some players have shown. I'm sure we all thought Griff and Salavea would hold down the DL last year, but because of injuries and other factors, they were not as dominant as we thought they would be. thus providing the oppotunity for Golston to emeger as a starter. Still, we odn;t know how they will perform this year either.

[Dick Edds]

My point was that a team can play the run well despite smaller defensive ends. One would be a fool to believe that the Colts were 32nd in the league due to their defensive ends. They were an abysmally horrendous tackling team, and they had shoddy defensive tackle play at best. And as a whole, their defense was small. However, 2.6 yards per carry for the Chiefs, when they were expected to run all over the Colts? And 14 total points in two playoff games allowed by Indi, and Baltimore's mammoth offensive line could never create the advantages against such a small defensive line (Ogden v Freeney, for example). 20 carries for 82 yards for the Ravens? Hell, give me those numbers any day, I don't see why you are complaining. And the Patriots averaged 3.9 yards per rush, and only scored 2 offensive touchdowns, so I don't really see the Colts-D bashing justified there. And if you take away Thomas Jones' outlying 52-yard run, the Colts held the Bears to 59 yards on 18 carries, for a measly 3.27 yard average.

Therefore, given these statistics, in the 4 playoff games the Colts played with 2 very small defensive ends:

Chiefs - 2.6

Ravens - 4.2

Patriots - 3.9

Bears - 3.8

We can get into semantics all we want, but the Colts proved against the best competition that you CAN win with two smaller defensive ends. And they won with defense too.

If Gaines Adams came in on passing downs, IE 2nd or 3rd and long, I think he would fit our system very well, and provide us with a superb pass rush opposite of Andre Carter, one of whom would have to be given single coverage.

What do you mean by overrun? In that, the offensive lineman pancakes the defensive end off the snap, then run down the field, and blocks a linebacker? All in a couple of seconds?

And don't forget, the Bears played with Adewale Ogunleye (6'4 260) and Mark Anderson (6'4 258) and you would be hard pressed to find anyone here complaining about that line.

If you're claiming Adams is better vs. the run than Daniels and Wynn' date=' then no he isn't. If you're just claiming that he will probably be a better player, then yes. But Jamal Anderson probably will be as well. Likewise Branch and Okoye will likely be better than Salave'a. And Landry vs. PP, etc. Don't know what that proves.[/quote']

My point was that height and weight should not be used as standard measures to differentiate between one's ability in some regard. No player would be considered at the #6 pick overall if he were such a liability against the run that many make him out to be.

this is right on ... no way you pass up a player of this caliber because of weight, height size, shoe size, and a "MYTH" that Adam's is weak against the run. He was the Anchor of the Tigers defense for 3 straight years. He didn't just get to rush the passer and not worry about anything else.

"Adams shows no commitment to play the run from what I've seen of him.

He is very flimsy...I do not think is he very tough at all.

Looks almost like a WR playing DE.

You can get away with that in the college game, but he will be beat down in the pros.

His technique now is extremely lackadaisical. He just wants to run around people and not physically use his body."

... but these claims are abosolutely rediculous. Bottom line ... he is ranked as the best DE prospect in the draft for a reason, which have been spat on and twisted around and nit-picked for things they really aren't. Someone please show me some stats that prove Adam's is weak against the run, other than how much he benched press, how much he wieghs, or one youtube video showing he got knocked backwards. It still has not been proven by any measurable means.

[Zen-like Todd]

Given the title of this thread, I was expecting a myth to be dispelled. Clearly, I expected too much.

[jamesbondman]

sknstillidie......great post my friend. The most dominating player to ever play defense and who changed the game...Laurence Taylor was 6-4 and 245....and he lined up in a 3-4 defense as a pass rushing DEFENSIVE END.

Is there anyone who ever said he was too small to play defensive end.

There are too many EXPERTS on this board who know absolutely nuthin, and I mean nuthin...about football. They just like hearing themselves talk.

[planter]

Good research.

Never thought of Adams as too small. (See M. Strahan)

And Jason Taylor, at 255 lbs,. had an awesome year!

Scientists have confirmed that Taylor doesn't have a single fat molecule....

[Flycoach]

Good research. You make a compelling point, but I still like Jamaal Anderson better. I think he's stronger, almost as quick and better against the run. About the same, or a tad lower, in pass rushing.