Our DT's

[Seabee1973]

I REALLY disagree with the last part. Trade for another pick? Loose several picks next year again, so we dont have much to work with AGAIN? For a WR? This is what got us in the position we're in now. Stop the madness.

As for our DL, did you watch the games last year? DL depth "outstanding"? We have Griff, who while a good player is injury plagued. Count on him being hurt yet again for a extended period of time next year. Joe is done. He got hurt but then lost his job as a 2 gapper to a 1 gap DT who was a rookie drafted in the 6th round. And then Montgomery, who might not be on this years roster. I dont really consider than to be deep at DT. DE might be worse. Wynn hasnt been a starting caliber player in years, and Daniels looks like a 34 year old DE. Which is to say pretty bad, and his age isnt going to go away. Then we have Evans (who is not good) and Carter. In all honesty, 4 of the 8 guys we have might not be able to make another team other than ours in the NFL. And our horrid line play last year pretty much proves that. There is absolutely nothing "seviceable" about it. We'll be the same 5-11 if we dont make moves to improve it.

I agree if we had been smart with our draft picks we might have a few answers on the team already but we were not. And as long as we keep giving away draft picks it will be a problem. with the age of a few players we should have drafted there replacements a few years ago so that they learned the system and could step in when needed kind of like Antonio Pierce even though he was undrafted.

Free agency should be used only as a luxury. and right now we are using it to build a team around which i think doesnt bode well for the future unless we somehow have an excellant draft and pull a few late round gems out of the pocket.

[Morneblade]

I agree if we had been smart with our draft picks we might have a few answers on the team already but we were not. And as long as we keep giving away draft picks it will be a problem. with the age of a few players we should have drafted there replacements a few years ago so that they learned the system and could step in when needed kind of like Antonio Pierce even though he was undrafted.

Free agency should be used only as a luxury. and right now we are using it to build a team around which i think doesnt bode well for the future unless we somehow have an excellant draft and pull a few late round gems out of the pocket.

I agree about FA, and Im glad we didnt break the bank this year. I liked who we picked up, but we still need a good DT and DE to really improve the defense. I dont think there was anyone that actually hit FA that was really going ot help us much though, so Im glad we didnt bite. I hope we draft a DE if we stay at 6 or get a DT and DE if we trade down.

[RIDETHEWALRUS]

As for our DL, did you watch the games last year? DL depth "outstanding"?

You misread what I was saying. I meant the DL depth in the draft is outstanding. There is quality talent going easily into the 3rd round with some huge upside likely to fall to the fourth.

I did not intend for it to be misread that our DL depth is outstanding. It is mediocre when healthy at best as father time catches up to our guys.

As for trading away a future pick for quality in a later round. I cannot say it is wise until the time comes. CJ may be an unpasable talent at #6, though I highly doubt we will see him there. With neither Randell-El nor B. Lloyd accomplishing much last year and Santana returning back to earth we are not fully set at WR. The point being that getting rid of future picks can lead to fantastic things ala Cooley.

And as for the guy asking me if I am defending the Duckett trade...read my posts use a little logic then re-ask the question.

[Seabee1973]

I agree about FA, and Im glad we didnt break the bank this year. I liked who we picked up, but we still need a good DT and DE to really improve the defense. I dont think there was anyone that actually hit FA that was really going ot help us much though, so Im glad we didnt bite. I hope we draft a DE if we stay at 6 or get a DT and DE if we trade down.

If we had a complete team Fletcher would look even better. instead we are reactionary and kind of needed him. plus if we had a more complete team we could have offered him more money up front and less at the end of his contract. But defiantly next year we need to draft his replacement or we will repeat this cycle again and again and again

[Morneblade]

You misread what I was saying. I meant the DL depth in the draft is outstanding. There is quality talent going easily into the 3rd round with some huge upside likely to fall to the fourth.

I did not intend for it to be misread that our DL depth is outstanding. It is mediocre when healthy at best as father time catches up to our guys.

As for trading away a future pick for quality in a later round. I cannot say it is wise until the time comes. CJ may be an unpasable talent at #6, though I highly doubt we will see him there. With neither Randell-El nor B. Lloyd accomplishing much last year and Santana returning back to earth we are not fully set at WR. The point being that getting rid of future picks can lead to fantastic things ala Cooley.

And as for the guy asking me if I am defending the Duckett trade...read my posts use a little logic then re-ask the question.

Agree about the talent at DL in the draft. I disagree that CJ is a "impassable" talent though. And as you speak of there being alot of players that could make a impact in the 3-4 rounds, you say we should be trading higher future picks to try to get something this year? That is exactly what has gotten us in the position we are in now. All this to draft a position we dont need at 6 (and he wont even be there)? No, I'll step far away from that. I'll give JC a year to see how things work with him and the WR before letting sounding the alarm. Start building the D now, and bite the bullet and stop morgaging our future. Let us go into next year with all our picks, or maybe someone elses as well if we trade down this year.

[cphil006]

Our DTs have been solid. CG was oft-injured last season. Big Joe has at least one more productive ear left in him and Kedric Golston had a solid rookie campaign and will only get better.

[Brandon Lloyd Christmas]

golston will be just as effective as CG in a year or two. i really liked his play last season and i definitely think he is going to be starter material. we need a mammoth DT, and a solid DE. im actually more concerned with a DT at this point, and hopefully we can trade down and grab both. im not even concerned about all of these hype names anymore. i honestly think that we need solid kids with youth on this team, not hype players like anderson/adams/carriker/branch. just give me 2 21 or 22 year old kids who are hungry to learn, and let our coaching staff mold them into great players. if it takes another year of a losing season, im fine with that, as long as im seeing improvement in their game.

[bedlamVR]

Trade down and you may be able to catch the slipping Branch and 1 or 2 more picks.

I totally understand what the Walrus is saying re: the Duckett trade. At the time it was the best option. Duckett was a premier back up/short distance back in Atlanta whcih would save Betts getting the pounding and maybe meen you still maintain the desired running game.

As the year went on and looking back at it now you could have got me to step in for Duckett and I would a played for a twinkie (I would have died happy) for all the impact he had.

The point is you cannot judge these trades and decisions 5,6,7 8 months down the line...there are very few backsies and do overs in life and that I think is what RTW is saying. At the TIME the trades were resonable now ermm not so.

Going back to the origional discusion. I really hope the FO has not zerod in on one position in the draft as they did with LB last year . I Am hoping they are looking at taking the best option at DT,DE, OG, SS, CB (WR) as they can get. Getting some infusion of youth on the line is a must, but must it be one of the big names?

One person I have not heard mentioned and probably for good reason is Jamaal Green (Sp?) the former huracane (i think) was selected in the draft the same year as Jerome McDougle 2003 and was burried on the depth chart. Now he may be an out and out bust and nothing more than camp fodder but he was picked up at the end of last year and is a speed rusher DE and the Eagles have a tendancy to pick up pass rushing DL...just a thought.

[LD0506]

I'm sorry but I couldn't disagree more. I'll definatley admit that there were other issues that contributed to our lousy record, but after watching the atrocities in 2006 such as Tennessee, Atlanta, New York (x2), Philly, St. Louis, and Tampa, I'm pretty confident in saying that the line play is single handedly our biggest downfall.

And I cannot disagree, it was atrocious! My point was that the production of the line (or lack thereof) was not a matter of subpar players that need wholesale replacement, there were reasons they played that badly. Some of that blame has to be laid on the coaches, and some of it was distractions. God only knows if the players themselves could tell you all the reasons they sucked, but I still maintain there is talent there, properly used (coaching) and properly motivated (themselves) we could see marked improvement without a lot of roster changes.

Your game lives or dies in the trenches and we need the D front to be solid and consistent, but I hear a lot of clamor for spending the #6 on a DT, and if the other issues aren't addressed we won't get any better, if they are then we will with the players we have now.

[Veretax]

I disagree I think CJ is worth trading up for. I'm not sure if the benefit and ammo we have is enough to pull it off, but I'd advocate doing it.

[skinsman4u]

Stick with same DT and we'll get same results and Fletcher will be caught in the was of OG and centers coming after him.

[Rufus T Firefly]

Back to the facts bit...

Betts had averaged 3.9 yds per carry to that point in his career. Betts had lost 5 fumbles in 321 carries an average of one fumble per 64 carries. Betts had never caught more than 15 balls in a season...not exactly prolific. Now in his defense it is hard to catach a lot of balls when you sit out an average of 4 games a year due to injury.

Duckett had averaged 3.9 yards per carry as well. He had fumbled 7 times in 552 attempts. An average of one fumble every 79 carries. The argument that Duckett had TDs because he was used in goal line situations is ridiculous. Why do you think he was used in goal line situations??? My gues is because he was particularly efficient in goal line situations. In fact I have a sneaky suspicion that his low ypc is due to his frequent use in 4 or less yards to go situations.

True we had options if Portis went down...they were just really bad options. Even Portis wasn't a good option with his injury.

The point IS to say that Duckett was clearly better up to that point in their careers. If Warrick Dunn had not emerged as the exceptional scat back he did in 2005, Duckett's number would have been even more impressive compared to Betts. The fact is Duckett was very much undervalued due to Dunn's play the year before and in fact was a very good value pick for what we gave up and the bind we were in.

The fact that Betts played well enough to not give up the job doesn't make the original decision a bad one...it just is difficult to accept because good decisions do not always end up with good results (like giving a one night stand your real name).

Don't know where you get your numbers, but everywhere I look I see Betts having 3 fumbles in 321 ATTs, while Duckett had 7 in 552. Advantage Betts. You're right, Betts hadn't been "prolific" catching the ball, just 52 catches for 507 yds. Duckett had 29 for 233. Advantage Betts. Betts had averaged 3.96 YPC to that point in his career, Duckett 3.94. Pretty even. Duckett just had more opportunities.

You mention Betts missing "4 games a year" due to injuries, but not that Duckett had missed 2.25 games per year. Or that Duckett had missed more in the previous 2 seasons (5 to 4) than Betts. That's just a bit of a one-sided look at that facet.

And no, it's not "ridiculous" to look at Duckett being a goal line back with regards to his TD totals. What is ridiculous is looking at TD totals as a basis for who is a better all-around back, as you did. Marion Barber was 3rd in the NFL in that category last year (while still managing a 4.8 YPC, btw), but I would hardly consider his year on the better bacpar with, say, Frank Gore, or Steven Jackson, or Brian Westbrook, or Tiki Barber. Tiki barely had half as many rushing TDs as his teammate Brandon Jacobs, but I'll still go out on a limb and say he was the better RB. Duckett hadn't even shown himself to be particularly good in those situations either, just that he was better suited to the punishment than Warrick Dunn.

And you're still using the dreaded hindsight to look at Portis' injury. Gibbs himself was pushing Portis to play at that point. We had two back-ups ho had shown at least some apptitude for the job. But we decided to overpay for an overrated short yardage back, giving up more for him than was traded for Willis McGahee or Thomas Jones. That's a bad deal any way you slice it.

If Gibbs had been worried about an injury derailing the season, maybe he should have looked for a CB, since we KNEW he was out, and that we didn't have a viable replacement. And the recent history of this team is that the defense declines immensely when Springs is out. If he was still panicked about RB, there were plenty of emergency options on the waiver wire, or who could have been acquired for a late round pick.

[The Full Monty]

I love Big Joe, but I think he might be done.

Griffin is a stud when healthy, but he's problems staying healthy for the past 2 years and he's getting older.

Boschetti is a try-hard guy but doesn't appear to be a starter in this league.

Golston flashed some last year, but seemed to try so hard to make plays he took himself out of the play at times.

I have the highest hopes for Montgomery as a good, run-stuffing DT that will take up where Salave'a is fading. Hopefully he's progressed from last year, and if so, should be a solid contributor to the DL.

Looking to the future, I don't think you can count on Griffin staying healthy or Golston progressing to the level of a healthy Griffin. As a result, the Skins need a playmaking DT. I think Okoye best fits that description.

I would not be unhappy, however, with Adams or Anderson. or Calvin Johnson.

I'll also be very happy with Branch. Very.

[Seabee1973]

And you're still using the dreaded hindsight to look at Portis' injury. Gibbs himself was pushing Portis to play at that point. We had two back-ups ho had shown at least some apptitude for the job. But we decided to overpay for an overrated short yardage back, giving up more for him than was traded for Willis McGahee or Thomas Jones. That's a bad deal any way you slice it.

QUOTE]

we gave up only a third rounder for duckett nothing else.

[RIDETHEWALRUS]

Don't know where you get your numbers...

You mention Betts missing "4 games a year" due to injuries, but not that Duckett had missed 2.25 games per year...

And no, it's not "ridiculous" to look at Duckett being a goal line back with regards to his TD totals...

And you're still using the dreaded hindsight to look at Portis' injury...

If Gibbs had been worried about an injury derailing the season, maybe he should have looked for a CB,

If you want numbers your best bet is to go to NFL.com...but I'll do it for you

Betts...http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302176

Duckett...http://www.nfl.com/players/playerpage/302187

Mentioning the number of games missed per year is fairly relevant considering Betts missed more games in a lesser role. Would you honestly hope for a full season out of a guy who can't handle 100 carries in a season? Something Betts had never done (In his defense though he had to compete for carries with the likes of Trung Candidate thereby reducing his opportunities).

As for calling him out on being a goal line back...Duckett still had a higher ratio of 20+ yard carries per attempt than Betts. Your counter examples do not fit the bill. Marion Barber isn't a "goal-line back" he is a second half back who also gets the goal line carries. He benefits greatly from being fresh after Jones wears on the D a little. But then again that is irrelevant because I never compared Duckett to the like of Tiki Barber, Willis Mcgahee, et al...I compared him to Betts, Cartwright and Sellars (I also took a pot shot at Jesse Lumsden ) and prior to Betts emergence there was really no question as to who was the better back (Duckett if you were still struglling with that one).

Back to Portis once again. If you had ever dislocated your shoulder you would be well aware that it takes upwards of 6 months to get your strength back and it is an easy injury to re-aggravate. Simply knowing what injury he had (combined with...I don't know...the physical trainer's report) Gibbs would have known that CP would not be able to hold onto the ball as securely as he had before and would not be able to get the same punch in stiff arms. In essence he would be a lesser back with a higher chance of injury. The reason he was pushing for CP to return is the same reason I keep supporting the Duckett trade...BETTS HAD DONE NOTHING IN HIS CAREER TO SUGGEST HE WAS STARTING MATERIAL!!!

Now for the CB issue...We did pusue a CB, a former 1st round pick to boot. Mikie Rumph had fallen on his face in San Fran, but was considered to be a physical corner before injuries had befallen him. While he turned out to be worth about the same as Taylor Jacobs (the guy we traded for him ). On top of that there was little reason to believe that Wright and Rogers would have been as abysmall as they were. Wright was a starter for one of the top passing defenses the year before and Rogers had shown some good flashes.

In hindsight...the Duckett trade sucked. But at the time it was made it was the right move and fully justified.

[RIDETHEWALRUS]

Agree about the talent at DL in the draft. I disagree that CJ is a "impassable" talent though. And as you speak of there being alot of players that could make a impact in the 3-4 rounds, you say we should be trading higher future picks to try to get something this year? That is exactly what has gotten us in the position we are in now. All this to draft a position we dont need at 6 (and he wont even be there)? No, I'll step far away from that. I'll give JC a year to see how things work with him and the WR before letting sounding the alarm. Start building the D now, and bite the bullet and stop morgaging our future. Let us go into next year with all our picks, or maybe someone elses as well if we trade down this year.

I personally do not know enough about CJ to say he is impassable or not. I say he "may" be an impassable talent, but I did not watch him in college and my comment here would obviously have to be believed by Joe Gibbs and company to matter. It is upsetting to say this considering the money we have invested, but WR is in fact a "need." Santana had a bad season last year (his numbers were his worst in 4 years), Lloyd had a terrible season while clashing with the team, and ARE played like a #3. Just because we have money tied up at the position doesn't mean it is set.

I understand entirely that you want to give JC a year and see how things work out with him. Quite frankly I think we will be just fine with our offense "as is" next year (especially if CP is at full strength). However if the hype surrounding CJ is justified and Gibbs et al see it too, I would not be in the least bit upset to see us draft him. Then it would be neccessary to trade a future pick to get a DL player later in the draft. Luckily for us there will be guys who typically would be drafted a round earlier available in the 3rd or 4th.

Our DL really just needs another solid player in the rotation. Golston's and Carter's emergence were both big towards the end of last year. The return of Salavae (even if it is at 75%) will also be a big gain nexct year. If Griff is healthy again our DL can be solid with another guy in the rotation.

Personally I hope CJ is drafted before our pick, we trade down and get some bloody depth, but it would be naive to not consider all possible options including trading future picks again.

[LoudMouth12thMan]

I'd have to say that the new NFL is about a strong 2 headed running game and depth at D-line. Those two combinations equal run the ball and stop the run. I'd have to say that D-line depth is essential. I would pick a DT with our 1st round pick regardless of whether we trade down or not.:2cents:

HTTR

[Smurf85]

Well the thing thats wrong with all these guys is.That all of them together had 7 sacks total sorry thats just not gettting it done.Not to mention we were one of the worst teams against the run.

[Peregrine]

I highly doubt that anyone here is willign to spend the time disecting our season play by play to figure out just what was wrong with our DLine(and DT in particular), so for the most part, we assume if the run defense was bad, the DT play was bad. Generaly a safe assumption to be sure, but not 100% of the time. Im not set on us needing another DT badly, but I do think our first draft pick should be used on a DLinemen.

[planter]

When it comes to the DT's, one wonders how much of their subpar performance was due to injuries and how much talent/motivation..

Often teams will draft the best talent available.

If a superhuman 335 lb. " agile " defensive tackle is available in the first round...?

Then again Skins could use DE, CB, etc.

[Morneblade]

I personally do not know enough about CJ to say he is impassable or not. I say he "may" be an impassable talent, but I did not watch him in college and my comment here would obviously have to be believed by Joe Gibbs and company to matter. It is upsetting to say this considering the money we have invested, but WR is in fact a "need." Santana had a bad season last year (his numbers were his worst in 4 years), Lloyd had a terrible season while clashing with the team, and ARE played like a #3. Just because we have money tied up at the position doesn't mean it is set.

I understand entirely that you want to give JC a year and see how things work out with him. Quite frankly I think we will be just fine with our offense "as is" next year (especially if CP is at full strength). However if the hype surrounding CJ is justified and Gibbs et al see it too, I would not be in the least bit upset to see us draft him. Then it would be neccessary to trade a future pick to get a DL player later in the draft. Luckily for us there will be guys who typically would be drafted a round earlier available in the 3rd or 4th.

Our DL really just needs another solid player in the rotation. Golston's and Carter's emergence were both big towards the end of last year. The return of Salavae (even if it is at 75%) will also be a big gain nexct year. If Griff is healthy again our DL can be solid with another guy in the rotation.

Personally I hope CJ is drafted before our pick, we trade down and get some bloody depth, but it would be naive to not consider all possible options including trading future picks again.

I think our DL needs 2 solid guys. Griff and Golston are our 2 best players there now. Unfortunatly neither is a 2 gap DT, both are 1 gappers. Sal lost his job AFTER getting healty to a 1 gap DT for a 2 gap job, so I dont consider him a starting 2 gapper here any longer. And he's getting older and I dont think he was all that good to begin with. If you guys remember, he had been out of football for a year because no one wanted him. Then there is the DE issue. Wynn was never a good player, and age has made him less than that. Daneils is 34 and I do no expect him to magically get younger. Basically we need a 2 gap DT and a DE that can rush and is stout against the run.

Tradeing future picks should not even be considered at this point. We'll go into next year with the same problems we have this year, and end up missing on some guy that oculd really help us, like we will this year. We cant fix everything in 1 year, nor should we even try.

[Skinsfor4]

Im with Walrus,if Carlos would have took that pass back we would have won at that loud(PipedInNoise)hostile stadium.We were as hot as Pitt when we lost that one. Sorry Im still steamed over that one.Oh we need DT&DE,Maybe they can do a trade that will net us both.