Anyone being harrased by "debt buyers" like AFNI?

[PiLfan]

Scam alert. I've run across these AFNI bung holes twice in the past month and thought I'd put a warning out there to anyone else who may have gotten a collections letter from them.

Last month my wife received a letter from AFNI, who claims to be a collections agency, that she owed over $300 for AT&T long distance service. Funny, considering she never had an account with AT&T, or used them ever. The letter was non threatening, even saying that if she paid a small percentage of it (about $80), they'd forgive the rest.

Sound tempting right?...just pay off the smaller amount and not worry about any credit hassles and be done with it. But I had no intention of paying a bill that was never ours to begin with, regardless of the amount. So I called them up to challenge it.

After a lot of delay tactics, I finally found out that AFNI is not a traditional collections agency working on behalf of AT&T or whoever. They are a "debt buyer", who paid AT&T and other companies for their old, very, very old bad debts, usually pennies on the dollar, and then attempt to collect the money for themselves. Then I found out this "bill" originated sometime in early 1995. I did a little research and found that the statute of limitations (SoL) on collecting these types of bad debts expires in most states after just 4-5 years. So it's impossible for AFNI collect, no matter how much mussle they pull (but don't expect them to tell you that).

What these debt buying vultures try to do is entice you to pay a ridiculously old debt, hoping you don't know the SoL laws, by reducing the amount owed and threatening to ding your credit if you don't pay. Generally the debt is so old they have only a name and an old, usually a bad address to go on. So they just look up people with the same name who were in or around the area, city or state around the time of the debt, and send out a letter to all of them. If they get just a few gullible dummies to pay up, they make a decent size profit. Oh, and if they do get someone foolish enought to pay the reduced portion of the debt...that starts the clock on the SoL again, and then they can take you to court to collect the rest!...doesn't matter that they said the rest would be forgiven! It's a trick! Read the Fair debt practices act, it's all in there.

Then yesterday we get yet another letter from them, this time for Sprint long distance. Same thing, the debt was from 1995, and she's never been a Sprint customer. :doh: What a scam!

Some friendly advice to all:

If you get a letter from one of these sleezy "debt buyers", (and you just may, as there are more and more of them popping up every day according to this) , take the following action:

1. If you are sure the debt is not yours, call the debt buyer and ask for information on the debt, such as the last known address of the person it belonged to, and what date the debt went into effect.

2. Check the credit SoL laws for your state.

3. Check your credit report (you are entitled to a free report every year, go to freecreditreport.com or something like that) and inspect to see if there is any record of this debt against you. If not, use that to support your case.

4. Write a certified letter to the debt buyer to contest the bill. DO NOT agree in anyway, verbally or in writing, that the bill is yours or that you agree or will even consider paying off a portion of the debt. DOING SO WILL RESTART THE STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS AND THEY CAN LEGALLY SUE YOU IN COURT FOR THE MONEY.

5. In the letter, state why you believe the bill is in error (ie, you never had an account with XYZ company, or you never lived in the city/state where the bill originated). Also mention that your credit report does not have the debt listed, but do not provide a copy...if they are a legit collections company, they would have access to it anyway.

6. Finally, conclude the letter by pointing out that in any case the SoL has expired and the "debt buyer" is **** out of luck.

7. Make sure you reply with this letter in 30 days, and via certified mail...doing so ensures that they cannot pursue you, and cannot ding your credit report.

They can't keep harassing on such bogus debts once you write to them with this info. If they do, you can bring suit against them for harrassment (under provisions of the FDPA).

Pass this on to anyone you know that gets a letter from one of these scam artists. Know your rights.

Editorial Note:

This course of action is only suggested if you are being bullied for an old debt that you know is not yours. If the debt is yours, pay it, regardless of the SoL. I'm not for supporting dead beats either :laugh:

[TK]

I hate to tell you this, but a first party collector can buy an old debt & re-list it on your credit report. And it'll stay there for another seven years until it either A) is paid/settlement reached or they sell it yet again to another first party collector. At this time, the cycle will start all over. If the debt is large enough & you don't live in a debtor friendly state IE: Texas/NC/SC/LA you may even wake up one day to find that they've placed a lein on your property.

[SkinsOrlando]

I hate to tell you this, but a first party collector can buy an old debt & re-list it on your credit report. And it'll stay there for another seven years until it either A) is paid/settlement reached or they sell it yet again to another first party collector. At this time, the cycle will start all over. If the debt is large enough & you don't live in a debtor friendly state IE: Texas/NC/SC/LA you may even wake up one day to find that they've placed a lein on your property.

Absolutely correct.

[Larry]

Uh, I'm certainly not claiming to be an expert on such things, but I could've sworn I've heard Clark Howard (hosts a nationally-syndicated consumer-advice talk show) claim that this fishing for old debts is outright criminal. I sure think I've heard him advise folks, for example, that if the "collection agent" notifies a credit agency, or if the credit bureau actually lists such a debt, then they're committing criminal acts. (They're knowingly listing a debt who's statute has run out as a new debt.)

I have trouble believing that he'd be advising folks to ignore these collection notices, and to downright threaten the collectors, if the law said otherwise.

(I'd also have trouble believing that the law works that way. It sounds to me like, using that logic, the statute of limitations on robbery can last forever, if the cops just keep assigning a new cop to the case every five years. However, it wouldn't be the first time somebody assumed me that a law says something that doesn't make sense to me.)

(And, in the realm of "should be", I don't think the statute should start over whenever a debt gets sold, but I'm not certain there should be a statute on debts, either.)

[Bang]

Unfortunately I fell for this sort of thing about 15 yrs ago on an old gym membership. I paid it, and then after i paid it and the check cleared, i got a threatening phone call AT WORK from the collector claiming he never got the check. I threatened him with a lawyer. then THEIR lawyer called me the next day AT WORK and threatened me unless i could prove i paid it. So i did, major pain in the ass, but they never called back. And you know what? I still have the cancelled check in my files, just in case they try it again.

thankfully, I don't carry much debt outside of my mortgage, so I don't have to worry over these things anymore.

~Bang

[HOF44]

You have to define what type of debt you are talking about. If it was taken to court and a judgment was given then the life can be up to 20 years to collect. If it was never litigated there is a SOL on how long they have to take it to court for collection.

A lien is an instrument of collection allowed by having a judgment, without one you can't put a lien on property.

So in a sense you are both correct.

[SkinsOrlando]

Statute of limitations means you cant sue, doesn't mean that you don't still owe the money. In Florida its 5 years from charge off date or date of last activity meaning if you made a payment on it yesterday, they have another 5 years to sue, debts don't just vanish. Some states such as ohio give the creditor 15 years to sue.

[stevenaa]

So basically you failed to pay a debt, and now it's a scam that they're trying to collect on it? They can legally buy these debts and collect on them as long as they observe the Fair Credit Act guidelines.

[HOF44]

So basically you failed to pay a debt, and now it's a scam that they're trying to collect on it? They can legally buy these debts and collect on them as long as they observe the Fair Credit Act guidelines.

The reality of debt collection is that if no judgment is received against you there are no ways for them to collect other than putting it on your credit report and hoping you will pay or to keep calling in hopes you will pay it.

Now if they go to court there are many options for them to actually collect the money. (liens,freezing bank accounts, garnishments, etc.)

[Sisyphus]

So basically you failed to pay a debt, and now it's a scam that they're trying to collect on it? They can legally buy these debts and collect on them as long as they observe the Fair Credit Act guidelines.

It's a scam if they try to collect a debt that you don't legally owe, or do so in a way that violates the Fair Debt COllection Practices Act, particularly in the case where they are trying to collect on someone jsut because they have a similar name.

[Fergasun]

My wife had some old credit card debt... like $12k. I noticed it on her credit report, and it had gotten sold to an old credit collection agency.

They called and I ended up giving them $7k. I'd prefer to pay off her debt than have to deal with her having bad credit. I thought it was a deal that she could make something like $10k in debt and then pay it off years later for a much lower cost.

[washogskinz]

Scam alert. I've run across these AFNI bung holes twice in the past month and thought I'd put a warning out there to anyone else who may have gotten a collections letter from them.

Don't forget to conclude your registered or certified letter with "Do not contact me any further in regards to this matter".

[PiLfan]

So basically you failed to pay a debt, and now it's a scam that they're trying to collect on it?

So basically you failed to read my post.

[PiLfan]

It's a scam if they try to collect a debt that you don't legally owe, or do so in a way that violates the Fair Debt COllection Practices Act, particularly in the case where they are trying to collect on someone jsut because they have a similar name.

Bingo.

Read the article I posted earlier. Here's a tidbit on how these vultures work:

Perhaps the strangest birds in the crowded collection aviary are the debt buyers. Unlike agencies that recover debts for clients, debt buyers purchase loans from creditors and keep every penny they collect. The big debt-buying firms typically handle accounts that are relatively easy to collect — fresh credit card and cell phone debt, for example, purchased directly from the creditor. But smaller outfits live on the fringes of the debt ecosystem, snapping up the right to collect on a random assortment of loans older than the Bush Administration. "We are the bottom-feeders," proudly declares Maverick Robinson, founder of Shapiro, Baines & Associates, a small debt-buying outfit in New Castle, Del. "We deal with the worst of the worst — the oldest, dirtiest, most worthless stuff on the ground."

Robinson will buy and collect on just about anything — medical bills, jewelry-store accounts, old gym memberships — he usually works accounts that other collection firms have given up on. That's okay with Robinson. He buys debt so cheaply — paying less than a penny on the dollar — that he needs to collect only on a tiny percentage. Still, it's tough work. Consumers often have no legal obligation to pay those old debts, and credit bureaus don't include them on credit reports. To collect, Robinson employs all sorts of psychological tactics. "I studied Jim Jones and Hitler in college," he says. "I studied brainwashing. I perfected it."

When he makes a call, Robinson uses a weird, whiny voice that the debtor won't forget; he appeals to what he refers to as the person's "moral turpitude" — their sense of shame. If a debtor is resistant, he often offers to settle the debt for a fraction of the full amount. Someone who incurred a $1,000 debt while in school, for example, will be offered "the student amnesty program — we can settle this debt now for just $297.86." (The weird digits are a trick borrowed from Wal-Mart.) If all else fails, Robinson resells the debt on Bid4Assets.com, an online auction site that allows anyone with a credit card to buy consumer debt and collect it for themselves.

Unfortunately, the collection trend creates problems for honest consumers. Thanks to the antics of cowboy debt buyers relying on dubious data, many people report getting calls about bills they paid years ago. At the same time, some companies are so eager to send accounts to collection that they neglect to fix billing snafus. However, collection agents don't have much incentive to help consumers untangle billing errors. Most rely heavily on a 15% to 20% commission — an arrangement that encourages them to wrangle payments by any means necessary. Furthermore, few have much experience in the business. One large collection firm, Asset Acceptance, recently revealed that the annual turnover rate for new hires is a whopping 98.5%.

[Major Harris]

i had some very harassing phone calls a couple years ago. seems there's a guy that lives in this area with same first name, same last name, and same middle initial that doesn't believe in paying his bills.

after telling them on 2 or 3 occasions that it was not me, i get a call from the boss. she is threatening me (in jive basically), and we argue back and forth. when i ask for her name, she hangs up.

it was really wierd, because the guy in questions wife has the same name as my mother in law. only when the light popped in my head about SS#'s, and they didn't match, did they finally stop calling.

that is, until they "sold" the debt to the next company. then i go through it again, twice. the last 2 companies were much more polite, though, especially when i explained that i've been through this before and i'm thinking of calling a lawyer.

when we refinanced our home, i had to initial a paper indicating that the guy was not me, as it sent up a red flag to the loan company.

[PiLfan]

i had some very harassing phone calls a couple years ago. seems there's a guy that lives in this area with same first name, same last name, and same middle initial that doesn't believe in paying his bills.

after telling them on 2 or 3 occasions that it was not me, i get a call from the boss. she is threatening me (in jive basically), and we argue back and forth. when i ask for her name, she hangs up.

it was really wierd, because the guy in questions wife has the same name as my mother in law. only when the light popped in my head about SS#'s, and they didn't match, did they finally stop calling.

that is, until they "sold" the debt to the next company. then i go through it again, twice. the last 2 companies were much more polite, though, especially when i explained that i've been through this before and i'm thinking of calling a lawyer.

when we refinanced our home, i had to initial a paper indicating that the guy was not me, as it sent up a red flag to the loan company.

Unfortunately, especially when it comes to old debt, the cause could also be stolen identity. Sometimes it's a billing error and a mix up with some yokel with the same or similar name....but there's always a chance someone may have gone through the trash one day and got a name/address and set up a billing account. In that case, it's a matter of arguing with the collector and trying to prove your good name and contest the debt (as I've been doing now for my wife). Make a strong enough case and it may go away....until the next lowlife buys it up and tries it all over again i guess.

[Art]

The key in dealing with calls on old debt is to simply, always, deny you owe the money. On extremely old debt, if you admit the debt is yours, then you allow the agency to put it back on your credit. As long as you deny it is yours, they can't do it and you are not under any obligation to pay. So, if you AGREE to pay a smaller amount, you acknowledge you owe it, and they can sell the remainder to someone else who can list it on your credit, or, they can themselves.

The problem is in days gone by it used to cost several hundred dollars to list a bad credit item, assuring only real, serious issues were listed. Now, it costs so little, even a $20 debt might get listed. It'll make it hard to have a serious credit report for anyone.

[PiLfan]

You have to define what type of debt you are talking about. If it was taken to court and a judgment was given then the life can be up to 20 years to collect. If it was never litigated there is a SOL on how long they have to take it to court for collection.

A lien is an instrument of collection allowed by having a judgment, without one you can't put a lien on property.

True, there are different time frames for different types of debt.

As for this false debt they are trying to pin on us, it has never gone to court or had any judgment that I'm aware of. If the SoL runs out, it can't go to court for judgment, and without a court judgment, there is no lien.

Still doesn't solve the credit report problem if it the debt buyer lists it to the bureau (which I'm not sure is even legal), but that's a battle you have to fight with the collector or debt buyer. I'm just very much against being compelled to pay for something that was never my obligation to begin with...all because of some billing error mix-up and some debt buyer who's trying to make a quick buck. Some might say, "the amount is small, why not just pay them and shut them up?"...it's the principal of getting bullied when I did nothing wrong that boils my blood more than anything...yielding to them basically is admitting that they're right and I'm a debt dodger. Sorry, not without a fight.

[PiLfan]

The key in dealing with calls on old debt is to simply, always, deny you owe the money. On extremely old debt, if you admit the debt is yours, then you allow the agency to put it back on your credit. As long as you deny it is yours, they can't do it and you are not under any obligation to pay. So, if you AGREE to pay a smaller amount, you acknowledge you owe it, and they can sell the remainder to someone else who can list it on your credit, or, they can themselves.

Very true.

Everything i've read on the subject, the advice on old debt is to always DENY you owe the debt or to pay it in any way. Then legally, I don't think they can continue to pursue or report it to the bureau (could be wrong though).

And as I've said before, I'm for making such a declaration only when you know the debt is not yours...it's the best way to defend yourself if that happens. However, I'm just as pissed at the dead beats that dodge legitimate debt as I am at the debt buying vultures who prey on honest consumers. They make it harder for everybody else.

[DCRunner]

I appreciate that everyone is trying to be helpful but I also hope that people know better than to take at face value advice from a sports discussion board.

The same caveat goes for what I'm going to say. You don't know me either.

But for what it's worth here's some of what I've learned recently. Debt collection is an incredibly dirt and dishonest business. The credit card companies and banks practically write the laws for your credit as well as collection practices and the reporting of your credit. They have consumers terrified. Consumers have such little influence and leverage that when there are laws that protect you, you should take full advantage of them and do so without apology, just like Bank of America and all the others do when they charge you exorbitant fees for being a day late or $5 over your credit limit. They are not embarrassed by their desire to make money, protect their assets and finances, why should you be?

This is business. It's not personal. If the law says a creditor can no longer sue you for a debt (that is, it's beyond the statute of limitations - SOL -) then that is the law. They may be able to continue to make attempts to collect - I say maybe cause there are ways to stop it - but they cannot continue to call you anywhere if you notify them they must stop. Their communications can be limited to mail. And you should never be talking to these people on the phone anyway. Always put everything in writing, demand they do so also and do not sign anything (you'd be amazed at what they can do with your signature). Violations are actionable under the FDCPA (Fair Debt Collection Practices Act & various state laws).

Remember you are probably not dealing with the original creditor anymore. He's already charged you huge interest rates, unjustified late and over the limit fees, charged off your account and taken a tax write off for your "debt" and then sold it. You now have some entity which claims it has the right to collect this "debt." How do you even know that? How do you even know their claimed amount is accurate? You don't. Which is why you need to find out how to approach these guys in the way that will protect your rights, not unnecessarily invite a law suit, and force them to put up or shut up.

Why would you feel compelled to "honor" some half-baked demand from a junk debt buyer who paid pennies (or maybe just one penny) on the dollar for this "debt." Again, you don't even know they have the right to be collecting anything from you. You can certainly bet that you don't owe the amount they are demanding from you. You can also be sure they have added crazy fees and charges that would never be justified or allowed in a court. You can also be sure that they are probably violating laws left and right. So learn how to approach these guys.

SOL depends on whether you are in a Cause of Action jurisdiction (like D.C. and many others) where the clock starts ticking as soon as the first month following your first missed payment and you never bring the account completely current or a Date of Last Activity jurisdiction - usually last payment made. That is when the SOL starts ticking - in D.C. it's 3 years for filing a law suit. Other states have different SOLs. Some states are better than others. Some states are totally creditor friendly and debtor unfriendly. Everywhere the SOL is 7 years for reporting your debts or other negative information on your credit reports before that information falls off your credit reports. Good information on your credit history falls off as well but not as soon.

It's a complicated area but there are many laws and regs to protect you from being cheated or scammed. The collectors and even the original creitors are notorious for deliberately trying to set the clock forward illegally so they have more time to sue you and keep reporting negative information. There have been huge fines levied in some states against some very big name creditors and agencies but they continue to keep up illegal practices.

All of this is just to say that you have be informed and vigilant. And do not get emotional about it. Remember it is business. They consider you business and you need to consider them business. This is not the same as paying your buddy back. It's a business transaction - sometimes the business risk of giving credit to someone works, sometimes it doesn't - sometimes through no fault of the debtor. Stuff happens in life. We don't believe in debtors prison here. We believe in taking risks. We believe in allowing people to begin anew. If the government were to forgive some debt or tax liability by Lockheed, do you think Lockheed would feel honor bound to pay it? In either event the lender almost always makes money. Do not allow yourself to be guilt tripped. Just learn to handle it in a way that protects you. Sometimes it's better to pay - sometimes it's not. Before you do anything - learn which is best for you and how to do it so that it works.

Visit this site called creditboards.com - (not sure if it has an "s" or not). It is full of good advice and knowledgable people. Besides how to fight unscrupulous collectors, it also offer detailed advice to ensure your debts and credit history are being reported and collected properly and accurately. If you are repaying debt, it should be only what you legitimately owe and to the correct debt owner. The site is also very helpful about what credit cards or banks to avoid, getting good rates on mortgages, how to up your credit scores, etc. Obviously if you need legal advice go to a lawyer.

So check your credit reports regularly and it wouldn't hurt to check your local courthouse to make sure no one has obtained a judgment against you without your knowledge - that's a favorite trick - deliberately serving you at an address they know you no longer live at or just fail to serve you at all and then lie about it (yes, it's all illegal, but if no one calls them on it they get away with it). Judgments can be vacated and they can be countersued for violations.

Sorry this is so long but I had to handle a big problem for someone recently and I learned so much about this area that I didn't even realize existed. Sad but also hopeful for people feeling overwhelmed and threatened. It's fascinating. Good luck

[twa]

I'm gonna bring this back up.

Last night my wife got a call from a collection agency looking for my son,after threatening to ruin his credit if $1665.00 was not paid by noon the next day.

She proceeded to give them a credit card number

The supposed medical debt is from 2001 and I have no record of it(my son was a minor then) so naturally I called to find out exactly what this was about.

They would give no information other than date of service and the original owner of the debt.

I explained ANY charges to my CC would be refused/disputed and demanded some type of documentation,which they could not provide. :mad:

After reviewing old medical bills and calling my insurance co we found NO outstanding balances or open/refused claims.

This afternoon I received a Formal Demand notice addressed to my son(how could a minor incur or be liable for debt??) with a MUCH lower figure,but still no documentation

I suppose I will have to send a Dispute letter just to cover myself and hope the idiots get it straight.

Anyone got a suggestion???

I have used this medical service several times and I would think they would have notified me IF I owed them from 2001 ...Lord knows they aren't shy :laugh: about bills.

.

[techboy]

Visit this site called creditboards.com - (not sure if it has an "s" or not).

It does, and it is the best place to go for issues like this, by far.

My understanding is that the best practice is to NEVER CALL. Just take two actions.

1. Send a letter requesting that they validate the debt. If they can't prove you owe it, they're out of luck. You don't have to prove or deny anything. Include in the letter that it is inconvenient for you to receive calls, and you want all correspondence in writing. They have to do this.

2. If it shows up on your credit report, dispute it. Doing this as the same time as #1 is called the 1-2 punch, and because by law the collection agency has to validate the debt before responding to the credit Bureaus, sometimes this can knock things off your credit report even if the collection agency thinks it's legitimate.

If you like, you can also sue the collection agency for $1000 for every violation of the Fair Credit Act (violations include things like calling you after you send a letter stating that they should not), which apparently most agencies violate many times and quite frequently. Some people make thousands of dollars doing this.

All of this is in far more detail on CreditBoards.

[SC3]

If you like, you can also sue the collection agency for $1000 for every violation of the Fair Credit Act (violations include things like calling you after you send a letter stating that they should not), which apparently most agencies violate many times and quite frequently. Some people make thousands of dollars doing this.

All of this is in far more detail on CreditBoards.

Now there's a motivating statement if I've ever seen one.

I once had to deal with these people. They were trying to reach someone who previously had our phone number. They kept calling and we kept telling them that they have a wrong number. I think after the 7th or 8th call you begin to try to think up of ways of messing with them. If I remember correctly we sent them a letter telling them to stop calling this phone number.