The Feminization of America?

[Mass_SkinsFan]

thank you, archie bunker

Dean, I can think of a lot worse people to be compared to than Archie Bunker.

[Air Force Cane]

I still think many of you are off base in this thread.

there were literally hundreds of thousands of WOMEN who worked in war plants, building ships, serving in the military, flying fighter planes during WWII. that didnt' mean that AMERICA was feminized, it meant equality.

there is a difference between equality and the feminization of males in the country. We do have two countries:

1) Massachusetts/California

2) Nascar Nation

[Destino]

I still think many of you are off base in this thread.

there were literally hundreds of thousands of WOMEN who worked in war plants, building ships, serving in the military, flying fighter planes during WWII. that didnt' mean that AMERICA was feminized, it meant equality.

there is a difference between equality and the feminization of males in the country. We do have two countries:

1) Massachusetts/California

2) Nascar Nation

Equality does not mean working in plant. Equality means earning the same pay being given the same consideration for promotions and top level positions. Equal Employment Opportunity Act wasn't passed until 72.

[DeanCollins]

Dean, I can think of a lot worse people to be compared to than Archie Bunker.

True

[Mass_SkinsFan]

Over the past generation or two, man has begun to notice that in addition to being a lot of fun to wrestle naked with, women actually have something worthwhile to say from time to time as well.

If you say so. That's not my experience, but obviously yours may differ from mine. women definitely have a place in the world outside the bedroom. It just isn't in the boardroom so far as I am concerned.

Why did man rule the cave? Because he needed to, and because he could.

Why is man now slowly ceding some of that control? Because the world has changed ... and because he's slowly realizing that he can.

Man ruled the cave because that's his place in the society. He was the protector and the hunter. He brought home the main (not only) portion of the family's food. If he didn't do his job, the family generally starved to death. "men" are ceding some of that control because women have overstepped the bounds of their accepted traditional roles and are forcing that change upon the hapless "men" who won't stand up for themselves.

The slow evolution of human woman from property/plaything to equal partner is perhaps the single most promising development of our species' brief history. We've come to an age where what's between the ears is finally becoming recognized, by more and more men and women every day, as more valuable to our race than what's between the legs.

I will agree that it is a very serious development. I just believe it's one that is not one that is a positive change in society.

For tens of thousands of years mankind has relied almost exclusively on half it's collective brainpower and creativity. Maybe as a species we're finally starting to wake up. Remember puberty? When your body and mind went crazy and, despite your best intentions, you didn't always behave in quite the way you look back at now and wish you had? We're doing that on a species encompassing scale now, and it's not always going to be pretty, smooth or graceful.

I think your puberty example is a little misplaced. Puberty is a natural occurance that leads to an advance in the human beings it affects. This is more like the slow onset of alzheimers or other mental diseases that take a useful human being and turn them into a blubbering fool incapable of even basic human functions at the higher levels of the disease.

Hang in there, folks. Ride's just beginning.

I just hope that I'm dead and buried before the roller coaster reaches the top of that first drop, because after that all hope will be lost. Unfortunately something tells me that huge drop just might happen in the thirty years or so that I have left on this planet.

[rincewind]

If you say so. That's not my experience, but obviously yours may differ from mine. women definitely have a place in the world outside the bedroom. It just isn't in the boardroom so far as I am concerned.

(this is in reference to Om saying women have something useful to say 'every once in awhile'.)

Why in the world have no women come into this thread and torn this pig limb from limb. Bad showing ladies.

[Destino]

If you say so. That's not my experience, but obviously yours may differ from mine. women definitely have a place in the world outside the bedroom. It just isn't in the boardroom so far as I am concerned.

Help me understand your reasoning.

To me the boardroom is all about making money. Even if I agreed that gender was a worthy concern wouldn't results still be more important? At the end of the day I'm made richer or poorer by the bottom line. I honestly don't think I would care if a company I own a piece of was run by a talking rock so long as my return was a good as I wanted it to be.

What's your thought process here? Is it that your social concerns outweigh business needs or is it that you feel women are not capable and men would yield superior results or maybe something else. Please do explain.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

To me the boardroom is all about making money. Even if I agreed that gender was a worthy concern wouldn't results still be more important? At the end of the day I'm made richer or poorer by the bottom line. I honestly don't think I would care if a company I own a piece of was run by a talking rock so long as my return was a good as I wanted it to be.

What's your thought process here? Is it that your social concerns outweigh business needs or is it that you feel women are not capable and men would yield superior results or maybe something else. Please do explain.

You largely answered the question yourself, Destino. The social concerns DO outweigh business needs. Making all the money in the world is worthless in my mind, if it is done through inappropriate means. I do also believe that Men in those same leadership positions would yield superior results.

To be totally honest, in my last post the word "boardroom" should have been replaced with "workplace" but that doesn't rhyme with "bedroom" so I used what I could come up with.

[PleaseBlitz]

1) Massachusetts/California

2) Nascar Nation

If those are my only 2 options, I would rather move to Canada. :doh:

[Destino]

You largely answered the question yourself, Destino. The social concerns DO outweigh business needs. Making all the money in the world is worthless in my mind, if it is done through inappropriate means. I do also believe that Men in those same leadership positions would yield superior results.

To be totally honest, in my last post the word "boardroom" should have been replaced with "workplace" but that doesn't rhyme with "bedroom" so I used what I could come up with.

I understand your position on social concerns. You certainly aren't alone in believing in and favoring strict gender roles. We disagree of course but that's to be expected.

I would like to know why you think men in those same positions would yield superior results.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I understand your position on social concerns. You certainly aren't alone in believing in and favoring strict gender roles. We disagree of course but that's to be expected.

That's fine. We disagree and we both understand that. Nothing much more to be said on that part of the discussion.

I would like to know why you think men in those same positions would yield superior results.

I've been in the business world long enough to know that as much, if not more business gets done on the golf course, at the dinner table, and in the washrooms of big business than gets done through the regular channels of the business. Business has been, and always will be, as much about who you know as what you know. The women in business don't generally have those connections and insider networks to get things done.

[Henry]

I've been in the business world long enough to know that as much, if not more business gets done on the golf course, at the dinner table, and in the washrooms of big business than gets done through the regular channels of the business. Business has been, and always will be, as much about who you know as what you know. The women in business don't generally have those connections and insider networks to get things done.

That only makes sense if you believe women incapable of developing the connections and insider networks you deem so important.

... and didn't you earlier in this thread dismiss inter-personal skills as relatively insignificant in the workplace?

[rincewind]

... and didn't you earlier in this thread dismiss inter-personal skills as relatively insignificant in the workplace?

:owned:

Good work, Indiana.

[Redskins Diehard]

:owned:

Good work, Indiana.

When we post does it just leave a blank space on MSF's screen? Maybe a "MSF Ignore List Thread" is in order?

Well played Henry

[rincewind]

When we post does it just leave a blank space on MSF's screen? Maybe a "MSF Ignore List Thread" is in order?

Well played Henry

It tells you who posted and that they are on your ignore list. Check it out - put somebody on random, you can remove them after you see what it looks like.

MSF tried to have an ignore list thread - it was locked.

BTW - you can still see posts of someone on your ignore list if they are quoted by someone not on your ignore list.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

That only makes sense if you believe women incapable of developing the connections and insider networks you deem so important.

Henry, a majority of these connections and insider networks come out of common universities, fraternities, and mutual acquaintances between the new arrival and the existing power players. Those are things that women are often not able to duplicate. So often they don't come into the business with that pre-made acceptance than Men from certain universities, frats, or other social organizations often do have. Additionally, many of these businesses work in an "Old Boy's Network" that is designed to keep women out of it's power positions. It is possible for a woman to build those networks, but it is much more difficult and often (from my experience) tends to be a matter of building new networks with the other women in the business instead of being able to break into the "Old Boy's Network".

... and didn't you earlier in this thread dismiss inter-personal skills as relatively insignificant in the workplace?

No. I dismissed the concept that inter-personal skills IN PLACE OF actual knowledge of the business/industry made one qualified for a job. Inter-personal skills IN ADDITION TO actual knowledge of the business/industry are a major advantage. I think you just missed the context of the original comment. All too often women try to work with the first concept, instead of the second.

[Mooka]

We could probably argue your example for quite a while. I'll make my one point and leave your example alone from there on. I don't see how a person who isn't qualified to do the technical aspect of a job can be said to be qualified for the job simply because they have good inter-personal skills. If a person doesn't understand the product or service, the fact that they can eloquently tell you that and look good doing it is worthless in my mind.

If inter-personal skills are required for the job, then how does that make a person less qualified?

[Predicto]

Henry, a majority of these connections and insider networks come out of common universities, fraternities, and mutual acquaintances between the new arrival and the existing power players. Those are things that women are often not able to duplicate. So often they don't come into the business with that pre-made acceptance than Men from certain universities, frats, or other social organizations often do have. Additionally, many of these businesses work in an "Old Boy's Network" that is designed to keep women out of it's power positions. It is possible for a woman to build those networks, but it is much more difficult and often (from my experience) tends to be a matter of building new networks with the other women in the business instead of being able to break into the "Old Boy's Network".

The best part about this post is how Mass believes this supports his point of view rather than undermines it.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

If inter-personal skills are required for the job, then how does that make a person less qualified?

Mooka, I think you missed a very important part of what you quoted.... Namely the concept that the person in question doesn't have the technical knowledge for the job.

For example....

You own a car dealership. You have to hire a new salesperson. Your two choices are:

a. Bob Smith. Bob has been a car-guy for his entire life. He's only 25 years old but he can tell you everything there is to know about the type of cars you sell. He eats, sleeps and breathes your line of automobiles. He also knows a fair amount about selling cars, as his father used to own a dealership. Unfortunately he isn't the most out-going guy on the planet. His clothes are a little rumpled and his tie doesn't generally match the shirt or suitcoat he's wearing.

b. Suzie Jones. All Suzie knows about cars is you put gas in them and turn the key. She hasn't even had an oil change done on her own personal car in about 5,500 miles. She has no understanding of the car sales business either. HOWEVER, Suzie is a very attractive young woman. She has a spectacular personality, puts everyone at ease around her and makes everyone she interacts with feel special.

Who do you hire?

I guarantee you that I can get Bob's wardrobe and personality dealt with quicker than I can teach Suzie the ins and outs of the automobile industry. Bob gets the job every time in my mind.

[stevenaa]

There's a lot of different facts and comments in my post, steven aa, so I'm not sure exactly what your brief, but broad responses, referred to exactly.

Just that the "extreme" and psuedo-masculine behavior is a compensation for not living with a "normal" dose of masculinity. An over compensation of sorts.

[Burgold]

I would disagree. Charisma is hard to teach. In the showroom, unfortunately, sex sells. Why do you think young beautiful pharmaceutical sales people are recruited straight out of college? Do you think it's because of their knowledge of chemicals and side effects? Do you think that they chose models as endorsers on tv ads because people think they are more knowledgeable?

[Mooka]

Mooka, I think you missed a very important part of what you quoted.... Namely the concept that the person in question doesn't have the technical knowledge for the job.

For example....

You own a car dealership. You have to hire a new salesperson. Your two choices are:

a. Bob Smith. Bob has been a car-guy for his entire life. He's only 25 years old but he can tell you everything there is to know about the type of cars you sell. He eats, sleeps and breathes your line of automobiles. He also knows a fair amount about selling cars, as his father used to own a dealership. Unfortunately he isn't the most out-going guy on the planet. His clothes are a little rumpled and his tie doesn't generally match the shirt or suitcoat he's wearing.

b. Suzie Jones. All Suzie knows about cars is you put gas in them and turn the key. She hasn't even had an oil change done on her own personal car in about 5,500 miles. She has no understanding of the car sales business either. HOWEVER, Suzie is a very attractive young woman. She has a spectacular personality, puts everyone at ease around her and makes everyone she interacts with feel special.

Who do you hire?

I guarantee you that I can get Bob's wardrobe and personality dealt with quicker than I can teach Suzie the ins and outs of the automobile industry. Bob gets the job every time in my mind.

That's an extreme example, I was just giving an example of less techinical qualifications, not none.

But anyway, I wouldn't hire either of these people. I would never hire a salesperson that isn't out-going and came to an interview looking sloppy. I wouldn't hire a woman who doesn't know a damn thing about cars either.

If I really have to choose, then Suzy gets the job, assuming she isn't a moron. The job training would teach her about the cars; you can't deal with someone's personality, that's rediculous.

[rincewind]

a. Bob Smith. Bob has been a car-guy for his entire life. He's only 25 years old but he can tell you everything there is to know about the type of cars you sell. He eats, sleeps and breathes your line of automobiles. He also knows a fair amount about selling cars, as his father used to own a dealership. Unfortunately he isn't the most out-going guy on the planet. His clothes are a little rumpled and his tie doesn't generally match the shirt or suitcoat he's wearing.

Old Gil has to get this sale.

[Shallow1]

Well it seems the overwhelming response to this thread indicates that something is happening that does not generally sit well with men in th US. The question at this point is "What is the solution?"

When I have a son, he is going to be one masculine SOB,.....this coming from a father that had to shave his face regularlly at age 11. I will encourage him to be a man as much as possible, even whe society says no..

and no he won't be a puff....so don't go there...

[Henry]

Henry, a majority of these connections and insider networks come out of common universities, fraternities, and mutual acquaintances between the new arrival and the existing power players. Those are things that women are often not able to duplicate. So often they don't come into the business with that pre-made acceptance than Men from certain universities, frats, or other social organizations often do have. Additionally, many of these businesses work in an "Old Boy's Network" that is designed to keep women out of it's power positions. It is possible for a woman to build those networks, but it is much more difficult and often (from my experience) tends to be a matter of building new networks with the other women in the business instead of being able to break into the "Old Boy's Network".

So ... men are being treated unfairly because women are being considered for jobs they aren't qualified for. They aren't qualified for those jobs because they can't network. And they can't network because men won't let them. This defines circular reasoning.

No. I dismissed the concept that inter-personal skills IN PLACE OF actual knowledge of the business/industry made one qualified for a job. Inter-personal skills IN ADDITION TO actual knowledge of the business/industry are a major advantage. I think you just missed the context of the original comment. All too often women try to work with the first concept, instead of the second.

Actuallly, I think you are the one who failed to recognize the proper context here. The point raised was this:

"A woman might be given preference over a nerdy engineer from MIT for this type of job, even if she had less technical qualifications; it doesn't mean she is less qualified for the job."

YOU then decided to change the context of the discussion to better fit your point. Sadly, you didn't address the actual point raised, so your justification made no sense. It still doesn't.

Since you never did actually discuss that original statement, and then later suggested "Business has been, and always will be, as much about who you know as what you know. The women in business don't generally have those connections and insider networks to get things done." I'm still wondering how you rationalize dismissing the former while asserting the latter.