Henry Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 The best part about this post is how Mass believes this supports his point of view rather than undermines it. Oh, I think he knows. I just don't think he cares. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Well it seems the overwhelming response to this thread indicates that something is happening that does not generally sit well with men in th US. The question at this point is "What is the solution?" Actually, I think that the real question is "is there really a problem that requires a solution or are we being manipulated into thinking that there is a problem?" As prominent conservative Gary Bauer once said: ""Joe Six-Pack doesn't understand why the world and his culture are changing and why he doesn't have a say in it." In fact, here's a more clear discussion of the "problem" and how it is consciously being promoted to firm up support for the Republican Party. http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10543 For four decades now, neoconservatives have bewailed the feminization of America. A nation where women can wear suits and men can have long flowing hair, even in corporate suites, drives them crazy. Since the 1970s they've touted belligerent policies, swaggering talk, and massive military budgets as the only way to stop liberals from imposing spinelessness on the nation. The neocons want to turn a nation of soft, lazy, mall-shopping, morally squishy "relativists" back to the manly "strenuous life" that Theodore Roosevelt and Ronald Reagan preached. That's one big reason they worked so hard to send "our boys" (and "girls") off to the battlefields of Iraq. Karl Rove himself may not be a neocon, but he's betting that the voters will be mesmerized by John-Wayne-style tales of "real men" fighting evil on the frontier -- at least enough Americans to avoid the death sentence that the voters might otherwise pronounce on the party that brought us the disaster in Iraq. The frontier tales may sound trite and hackneyed to some, but they won't go away. You probably know them by heart. In fact, without a second thought, you probably put them together intuitively and unconsciously to form a single unified narrative, doing the Republicans' work for them. Many of your fellow Americans still take that grand narrative as the tried-and-true tale about the virtues that made America great. Will women as well as men fall for these fairy tales of heroic masculinity? There is still a gender gap in U.S. politics. But since 9/11 it has narrowed considerably. Plenty of female voters now choose the candidate who best embodies the "manly virtues," because it isn't really about sex or gender. It's about an age-old cultural bias that says males make clear distinctions between good and evil and then do whatever it takes to destroy evil, while females offer dangerously tender-hearted understanding to everyone. This gets us to the heart of the Scheherazade strategy. It plays on the insecurity of Americans who feel that their lives are out of control. Karl Rove knows that (as Gary Bauer, a religious right politico, once put it) "Joe Six-Pack doesn't understand why the world and his culture are changing and why he doesn't have a say in it." So Rove constantly invents simplistic good-against-evil stories for his candidates to tell. He tries to turn every election into a moral drama, a contest of Republican moral clarity versus Democratic moral confusion. Rove wants every vote for a Republican to be a symbolic statement: I am not merely a feather blown around by what George W. Bush has called "the winds of change." My vote anchors me in the Republican Party -- solid as a rock, tough as the toughest pioneer, willing and able to bring the savage wilderness of this terroristic planet under firm American control. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjcdaman Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060712/hl_nm/stress_dc LONDON (Reuters) - Working long hours has a greater negative impact on women than men because it makes them more likely to smoke, drink coffee and eat unhealthy food. Women can't handle the work. I'm kidding. To reiterate, this was a joke. All sensitive people, I was just joking around! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Om Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 If you say so. That's not my experience, but obviously yours may differ from mine. women definitely have a place in the world outside the bedroom. It just isn't in the boardroom so far as I am concerned.Man ruled the cave because that's his place in the society. He was the protector and the hunter. He brought home the main (not only) portion of the family's food. If he didn't do his job, the family generally starved to death. "men" are ceding some of that control because women have overstepped the bounds of their accepted traditional roles and are forcing that change upon the hapless "men" who won't stand up for themselves. I will agree that it is a very serious development. I just believe it's one that is not one that is a positive change in society. I think your puberty example is a little misplaced. Puberty is a natural occurance that leads to an advance in the human beings it affects. This is more like the slow onset of alzheimers or other mental diseases that take a useful human being and turn them into a blubbering fool incapable of even basic human functions at the higher levels of the disease. I just hope that I'm dead and buried before the roller coaster reaches the top of that first drop, because after that all hope will be lost. Unfortunately something tells me that huge drop just might happen in the thirty years or so that I have left on this planet. Do any normal people have anything to say about my post? (this is in reference to Om saying women have something useful to say 'every once in awhile'.)Why in the world have no women come into this thread and torn this pig limb from limb. Bad showing ladies. Ah. One. If you're of a mind, try reading the line again, but this time with your Irony Detector set to "on." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GrimReefa Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Your friend wasn't a soap salesman named Tyler by any chance? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SkinsHokieFan Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Actually, I think that the real question is "is there really a problem that requires a solution or are we being manipulated into thinking that there is a problem?" As prominent conservative Gary Bauer once said: ""Joe Six-Pack doesn't understand why the world and his culture are changing and why he doesn't have a say in it." In fact, here's a more clear discussion of the "problem" and how it is consciously being promoted to firm up support for the Republican Party. http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10543 Like I said, I dont think this is a liberal/conservative issue at all and to push it as such is disengenuous. We can all pretty much say that Destino is NOT a right wing conservative who is afraid of women's equality What seems to have happened, in my observations, is that men these days are not confident, are not secure in their own skin and unwilling to ruffle feathers but instead try and make everyone happy I honestly do not know what the cause of it is. I do not think it is because women have gained better equality. I think it is an issue with men not being secure and confident about themselves Its not about if you can cut the lawn, or chop wood, its about can you be assertive without being a jackass or can you be assertive without being too wimpy? Can you be in that middle ground of having respect for yourself, respect for others, be able to take care of yourself and stick up for yourself? I don't think that happens enough anymore, and not because some politician says so. Its not the "feminization" of America, its the fact that men just don't act like men anymore Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 That's an extreme example, I was just giving an example of less techinical qualifications, not none. What you have to realize is that, so far as I am concerned any candidate (regardless of gender) who doesn't meet or exceed any requirement for the job is unqualified for the job. If the job requirement is an Bachelor's Degree and you have an Associates... UNQUALIFIED. If the job requirement is 60 months of real-world experience and you have 59 months and 28 days.... UNQUALIFIED. If the job requirement is that you know a specific piece of software and you know something similar, but not that specific software.... UNQUALIFIED. Unqualified applications should get filed with the 0% APR Credit Card offers and political candidate monetary requests.... in the garbage can. Without even being looked at any further than the disqualifying factor. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I would disagree. Charisma is hard to teach. In the showroom, unfortunately, sex sells. Why do you think young beautiful pharmaceutical sales people are recruited straight out of college? Do you think it's because of their knowledge of chemicals and side effects? Do you think that they chose models as endorsers on tv ads because people think they are more knowledgeable? Charisma isn't what I look for in a salesperson. Knowledge of the product is. When I walk into a store I want to know the bottom line price, and why your company's product is better than your competitors. Nothing more. If you want to give me the "sales pitch" you're gonna find you're doing it to yourself, because I will just walk out. I've done it before in car dealerships, appliance stores, electronics stores, etc... This is probably part of the reason I find so much of the current tv & radio advertising so frustrating and useless. For example, I believe it's Mercury that currently has the tv ads starring the brunette. From what I can tell, she's the only selling point for the car because there's no other worthwhile info in the ad. Similarly, why would I want to buy a bodyspray that is apparantly going to get me mugged by a gaggle of women? Give me the information I need to make an informed decision on your product and nothing more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 So ... men are being treated unfairly because women are being considered for jobs they aren't qualified for. Correct, through the first sentence of the paragraph. They aren't qualified for those jobs because they can't network. They aren't qualified for the job because they don't have the skills necessary to do the job. Both on the technical end AND on the social end of the spectrum. And they can't network because men won't let them. This defines circular reasoning. They can't network because most of the people they'd be talking to are more interested in the MNF game last night than the new recipe for Veggie Dip in Better Homes and Gardens or the best way to clean a bathtub, which are the only sorts of things most women are truly qualified to discuss. YOU then decided to change the context of the discussion to better fit your point. Sadly, you didn't address the actual point raised, so your justification made no sense. It still doesn't. Of course it doesn't to you Henry. You've bought into this ridiculous concept that there are women out there who are your equal or potentially your better. You've sold your masculinity. I really do hope you got something good in return for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 They can't network because most of the people they'd be talking to are more interested in the MNF game last night than the new recipe for Veggie Dip in Better Homes and Gardens or the best way to clean a bathtub, which are the only sorts of things most women are truly qualified to discuss. Of course it doesn't to you Henry. You've bought into this ridiculous concept that there are women out there who are your equal or potentially your better. You've sold your masculinity. I really do hope you got something good in return for it. oh ho ho ho OMG Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rincewind Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 oh ho ho ho OMG I'm starting to think he may be right - not 1 woman has come in here to put him in his place. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I don't know about you guys, but I am all that is man. Gotta go hunt some McDonald's for lunch....be back later. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DjTj Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'm starting to think he may be right - not 1 woman has come in here to put him in his place. It's the sad feminization of women in America ... not one woman is willing to stand up and defend herself ... You know, what MSF's post made me realize is that we've gone 13 pages in this thread without really defining "masculine" or "feminine." Apparently, MSF thinks that masculine means "believing that men are better than women," and almost everyone in this thread seems to be operating under the assumption that "feminization" means "not standing up for yourself." :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think the women deal with enough of this crap every day in their real lives. Why ask for more on a message board. :whoknows: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AdamB Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'm starting to think he may be right - not 1 woman has come in here to put him in his place. Not sure...but they actually may be showing a higher level of intelligence and/or willpower by not responding to his ramblings while the men are all poking him with a stick trying to see what silly comment he will make next. Either that or they are too busy laughing too respond, one of the two. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cjcdaman Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 Of course it doesn't to you Henry. You've bought into this ridiculous concept that there are women out there who are your equal or potentially your better. You've sold your masculinity. I really do hope you got something good in return for it. OUCH!!! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ghost of Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I think the women deal with enough of this crap every day in their real lives. Why ask for more on a message board. :whoknows: I'm still shocked that you cited a zmag article. What the dilly on that, man? :laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Predicto Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 I'm still shocked that you cited a zmag article. What the dilly on that, man? :laugh: hehe. If people can cite NewsMax all the time on here, why not? The point is not necessarily invalid even if the messenger is not to your liking. I suggest reading "What's the Matter with Kansas" by Thomas Frank. It a great read and spot on. http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0805073396/103-9005393-4109421?v=glance&n=283155 From the Amazon.com review: "The largely blue collar citizens of Kansas can be counted upon to be a "red" state in any election, voting solidly Republican and possessing a deep animosity toward the left. This, according to author Thomas Frank, is a pretty self-defeating phenomenon, given that the policies of the Republican Party benefit the wealthy and powerful at the great expense of the average worker. According to Frank, the conservative establishment has tricked Kansans, playing up the emotional touchstones of conservatism and perpetuating a sense of a vast liberal empire out to crush traditional values while barely ever discussing the Republicans' actual economic policies and what they mean to the working class. Thus the pro-life Kansas factory worker who listens to Rush Limbaugh will repeatedly vote for the party that is less likely to protect his safety, less likely to protect his job, and less likely to benefit him economically. To much of America, Kansas is an abstract, "where Dorothy wants to return. Where Superman grew up." But Frank, a native Kansan, separates reality from myth in What's the Matter with Kansas and tells the state's socio-political history from its early days as a hotbed of leftist activism to a state so entrenched in conservatism that the only political division remaining is between the moderate and more-extreme right wings of the same party." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Prosperity Posted July 12, 2006 Share Posted July 12, 2006 It's the sad feminization of women in America ... not one woman is willing to stand up and defend herself ... You know, what MSF's post made me realize is that we've gone 13 pages in this thread without really defining "masculine" or "feminine." Apparently, MSF thinks that masculine means "believing that men are better than women," and almost everyone in this thread seems to be operating under the assumption that "feminization" means "not standing up for yourself." :whoknows: when you get right down to it, it takes a pair of testacles. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 They aren't qualified for the job because they don't have the skills necessary to do the job. Both on the technical end AND on the social end of the spectrum. Given your self-admitted inability to relate to women for any reasonable length of time, I have a hard time putting much weight your opinion and limited anecdotal evidence. They can't network because most of the people they'd be talking to are more interested in the MNF game last night than the new recipe for Veggie Dip in Better Homes and Gardens or the best way to clean a bathtub, which are the only sorts of things most women are truly qualified to discuss. Again, even if this were true, how is this unfair to MEN? Embellishing on your logical fallacy doesn't change the fact that is it one. Like I said, I think you already know this, but you just don't care. Of course it doesn't to you Henry. You've bought into this ridiculous concept that there are women out there who are your equal or potentially your better. You've sold your masculinity. I really do hope you got something good in return for it. Oh, don't worry about me. I am quite secure with my masculinity and my place in the world. I don't fear women and I don't refuse to relate to them in a desperate attempt to preserve some false sense of superiority over them, and I don't need the crutch of an archaic caste system in place enjoy a strong sense of self. I get plenty in return for this. I get more than you'll ever know. Self confidence is a wonderful thing. You really should try it sometime. Now, do we want to keep spouting platitudes or can we act like adults and still be freinds? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mass_SkinsFan Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Given your self-admitted inability to relate to women for any reasonable length of time, I have a hard time putting much wieght your opinion and anecdotal evidence. That's fine. You don't have to put any weight into my opinion or evidence. Nobody other than me does. I know what I believe and nothing anyone says or does is ever going to change it. Again, how is this unfair to MEN? Embellishing on your logical fallacy doesn't change the fact that is it one. Like I said, I think you already know this, but you just don't care. I'm not even going to bother trying to explain it again. I've tried to explain it several times already and obviously you're not going to get it. Either I'm doing a very bad job of explaining it, or you just don't want to get it. Either way it's not worth the time and energy to explain it again. Oh, don't worry about me. I am quite secure with my masculinity and my place in the world. I don't fear women and I don't refuse to relate to them in a desperate attempt to preserve some false sense of superiority over them, and I don't need the crutch of an archaic caste system in place enjoy a strong sense of self. I get plenty in return for this. I get more than you'll ever know. Self confidence is a wonderful thing. You really should try it sometime. I'm quite secure in my masculinity and place in the world as well. I don't fear women either. If I see them with any emotion, it tends to be pity. Obviously you feel you get something out of it. I don't see what it could be, but obviously you do. I have plenty of self-confidence, Henry. I just also have a sense of reality to my life as well. Now, do we want to keep spouting platitudes or can we act like adults and still be freinds? Either way. Doesn't make a difference to me. Whether we are "friends" or not isn't going to make any difference in how I treat you or react to your posts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Buy it, read it, love it. Should be required summer reading for the emasculated males in this country. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Henry Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 That's fine. You don't have to put any weight into my opinion or evidence. Nobody other than me does. I know what I believe and nothing anyone says or does is ever going to change it. You know, I've got a pretty good memory. You don't need to repeat yourself. I'm not attempting to change what you believe. Just trying to work my way through the convoluted logic you employ to get to those beliefs. I'm not even going to bother trying to explain it again. I've tried to explain it several times already and obviously you're not going to get it. Either I'm doing a very bad job of explaining it, or you just don't want to get it. Either way it's not worth the time and energy to explain it again. Eh. Maybe I've been giving you too much credit. I know exactly what you said. Your logic is flawed. If you are cool with that so am I. I'm quite secure in my masculinity and place in the world as well. I don't fear women either. If I see them with any emotion, it tends to be pity. Obviously you feel you get something out of it. I don't see what it could be, but obviously you do. I have plenty of self-confidence, Henry. I just also have a sense of reality to my life as well. You know nothing about women. You don't want to and that's fine. But then I would refrain from suggesting you have a better concept of the nature of the relationship between men and women than those of us with a little more knowledge and experience than the occasional pitiful glance. Part of being a man is knowing how to relate to women. As you have no ability or desire to do so, I submit that you are the one who has surrendered a part of his masculinity. Now I'm not posturing. This is the truth, Scott. You really, really, just don't know what you're talking about. And I'm sorry you don't. Anyway, I think we're done here. Don't worry, your brick wall is still in tact. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted July 13, 2006 Author Share Posted July 13, 2006 don't forget this spaceman Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jrockster21 Posted July 13, 2006 Share Posted July 13, 2006 Real men play rugby!!! :chug: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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