The Feminization of America?

[zoony]

This is one of the most important myths propping up the conservative movement in this country, the one underlying the Promise Keepers.

Quick - which side are you on - you have to choose now: John Wayne or Marcel Marceau. :laugh:

myth? :laugh:

[TD_washingtonredskins]

myth? :laugh:

:laugh:

[rincewind]

myth? :laugh:

or....

myth? :laugh:

[Destino]

myth? :laugh:

haha that never gets old. :laugh:

BTW - I wonder how many of the older dudes here were fans of hair metal bands. Spandex, lipstick, and big hair. lol

[Predicto]

myth? :laugh:

Perfect example. The conservative keep riding that horse. Bash bash bash those effeminate liberal elites, and you can keep the working class voters riled up to "defend American values" and thereby vote against thier own economic interests. It's brilliant. Karl Rove is the smartest man in America, hands down.

[SkinsHokieFan]

Perfect example. The conservative keep riding that horse. Bash bash bash those effeminate liberal elites, and you can keep the working class voters riled up to "defend American values" and thereby vote against thier own economic interests. It's brilliant. Karl Rove is the smartest man in America, hands down.

Wow, I have never viewed this as a liberal/conservative thing, but as a confidence, assertive thing

I just don't think men today are confident and assertive, or they are too far on the other end and way too agressive and have a lack of respect for themselves and others

There are weak "nice guys" and jerk "ass----" but there are not enough in between

I dont see how this is a liberal/conservative thing

[zoony]

Perfect example. The conservative keep riding that horse. Bash bash bash those effeminate liberal elites, and you can keep the working class voters riled up to "defend American values" and thereby vote against thier own economic interests. It's brilliant. Karl Rove is the smartest man in America, hands down.

you give Rove way too much credit.

Kerry didn't strike me as feminine, just having the charisma of a speed bump. I don't think America needed Rove to point that out to them :laugh:

[zoony]

And I should ad, predicto, that if Rove was as smart as you give him credit, Bush's approval rating wouldn't be in the gutter right now. :2cents:

[DCsportsfan53]

Just a thought but maybe it has at least something to do with what women are attracted to? I mean, if most women preffered unibrows and hairy backs I don't think you'd see any men trying to do anything about that.

[ashburnskinsfan]

And I should ad, predicto, that if Rove was as smart as you give him credit, Bush's approval rating wouldn't be in the gutter right now. :2cents:

Think again ... where would his approval rating be if it wasn't for Rove? :laugh:

[Air Force Cane]

the ACLU and New York Times are trying to run our policies- THAT is the feminization of America..

[Air Force Cane]

Wow, Predicto is finally correct about something:

"Karl Rove is the smartest man in America, hands down."

:applause:

[The Evil Genius]

the ACLU and New York Times are trying to run our policies- THAT is the feminization of America..

How can you possible see that with the tin foil wrapped around your head?

Paranoid much?

j/k man...

Seriously, I do think people tend to overdramatize the effect that the NYT and ACLU have. We are all guilty of it...especially when they support crazy causes...but at least they are their fighting - which actually strengthens the process.

[DjTj]

Some gender roles will naturally phase out. I live with three guys and I have cut the grass and taken the trash out a many more times than they have. I don't think this makes them less manly, it just shows how lazy they are. :laugh:

And really, what's more manly than being a lazy son-of-a-*****?

I just don't think men today are confident and assertive, or they are too far on the other end and way too agressive and have a lack of respect for themselves and others

There are weak "nice guys" and jerk "ass----" but there are not enough in between

I think you're suffering from selective memory here. It's very easy to notice the guys who get taken advantage of and the jerks who are taking the advantage, but the vast majority of guys do actually fall in between.

In high school, everyone can pick out the "nerds" and the "jocks" but what about the other 90% of guys in the school? This may also be a function of youth, because it seems like as people become more mature, they are less likely to fall into particular molds.

That being said, I think the premise of this thread is generally right. Gender roles have definitely become less prominent, but that's a consequence of a world where gender roles are simply less important. Maybe men, on average, are better at lifting boxes and women, on average, are better cooks, but there aren't a lot of people making a living moving boxes or cooking anymore. The vast majority of modern-day jobs can't be differentiated by gender, and it's pretty easy nowadays to hire someone to fix your car, cook your meals, or watch your children. If I'm charging a client $100/hr., I'm going to spend my hour working for the client rather than mowing the lawn, regardless of how "masculine" that might be.

[Predicto]

And I should ad, predicto, that if Rove was as smart as you give him credit, Bush's approval rating wouldn't be in the gutter right now. :2cents:

LOL. If it wasn't for Rove's brilliance, GW would have been run out of town on a rail long ago :laugh:

[stevenaa]

As contrast with the "automatic" made comments so far, here's the "other" side, featuring the fact that there is common (correct) association (including in the thread) between violence and masculinity:

Males (and females) fighting in school: dramatically up over last generation (15-20 years).

Public fights by under-25 age group: significant rise. (I'm ignoring general crime stats--different, even if related, topic).

Creation, success and participation of extreme sports.

Success and imitation of macho-high-risk activity ala "jackass" (huge increase in hospitalizations and medical treatment due to related injuries).

Explosive success of popular media (music, movies, videos, video games) featuring violence and heavily emphasized sexualization of women.

Success and widespread imitations of pro wrestling and backyard versions.

Local fight clubs all over not having existed in such form 15 years ago.

Increased growth of young male demographics in supporting professional contact sports.

(BTW, you are not authorized to assume I am presenting all of the above in a dissaproving frame, I like a lot of it )

There are more indicators that familiar stereotypes of masculinity, and machoism are alive and well and even undergoing a growth spurt, but I offer this just as stuff to consider for the conversation besides the reflexive "sure they are."

My personal reaction does lean towards "thinking" I see a lot more (than in my teens/20's) of what I would call:

a "punk" (cowardly, stupid, demented) kind of violence.

celebration of wimpy :pooh: (emo-land).

guys who are men (say over 18) by chronology, but boys by behavior (immaturity, self-absorbed emotionality--i.e. whiny, silly, girly---girls love them for "pals", almost never sleep with them).

males living home off mom and dad a lot longer (but it really is harder financially these days).

But many actual social indicators, and a little critical thinking applied to my own "hard-azz side" personal remarks, do not seem to support any real overall "lessening" of masculinity in the culture.

Now as to male-female gender roles etc...that's another topic :laugh:

I thing your remarks support the idea of a lessening of masculinity. It is an unnatural occurence, and some of the outlandish stuff you mention is simply a result of not living your masculinity daily.

[Ghost of]

thereby vote against thier own economic interests. It's brilliant. Karl Rove is the smartest man in America, hands down.

Yeah, it's all a ruse. Ideologies don't come and go in popularity or show themselves to be a failure or moderate success in the real world. It's all that Karl Rove.

And I love how you are familiar with the economic interests of ALL Americans. I quiver when I contemplate what you'd find to be IN the interest of Americans.

[chomerics]

Chom, you didn't address much of anything I said. And if you can't detect sarcasm in my original post, well, I don't know what to say...

Are you telling me you believe that men and women are completely inter-changeable? That there is no difference between them? If so, I say poppy****. That's right, poppy****. Don't know what it means, and I'm not sure it will get by the censors, but it's fun to say.

I would argue men and women play incredibly important, separate roles in society and in family. For years the roles that women play(ed) were denigrated, to the detriment of society. That's unfortunate and wrong. The role my wife plays in my family is nurturer and care-giver, a role I don't want, b/c I KNOW I wouldn't be any good at it. She is. Therefore it's her role. I don't see the problem here.

Yet to each his own, and to state ANY one race/religion/gender is better then another hands down is just outright lunacy. I know a hell of a lot of girls that could dig a ditch better then a hell of a lot of guys, and i know a bunch of guys who would be better in the home then a bunch of girls. Just because the situation is better for YOU doesn;t make the situation better for EVERYONE, that is the point you are missing.

Are men on average better suited for some professions then women? Sure, it is because of the physiological makeup of men, but that ALSO does not mean that a woman can not perform the job as good or sometimes even better then a man, there are exceptions to EVERY rule. That was the point I was getting at, and to blatantly think because YOUR situation is good for EVERY situation is just plain wrong.

It is thinking like this that leads to women in the workplace earning less then men. People think in generalizations rather then actually paying attention to the situation and making a rational judgement based on the certain situation. GENERALLY, yes there are roles men are better suited for because of genetics, but that doesn;t make it the case ALL the time.

And yes, it IS a political issue, and the one that has been pumping up the republican party for quite some time, Predicto is spot on. It is the old "good ole days" argument when men earned a living, and women stayed home with the kids. You hear the analogy about the times in the 50's being back "when things were good".

Well, things were NOT good in the 50's and in fact they were quite wrong. There was rampant prejudice in society, women were treated like second class citizens and it was not right. Now, because they are getting a foothold along side men in the business world, people are complaining times were not like "the good times of Ozzie and Harriet", well i am damn glad they are not like then. I am glad black people are not hated as a group in society now, the racists turned their anger towards gays, Muslims and immigrants now, so good for the brothers of the world, it's about time you were off the list

[ChocolateCitySkin]

Feminization of America? Did you see the way those italians were fondling and licking the world cup? Geez... As long as we don't have guys start acting like that in this country I think we'll be fine.

[Destino]

Yeah, it's all a ruse. Ideologies don't come and go in popularity or show themselves to be a failure or moderate success in the real world. It's all that Karl Rove.

And I love how you are familiar with the economic interests of ALL Americans. I quiver when I contemplate what you'd find to be IN the interest of Americans.

The fact that ghost used the word "quiver" to describe his reaction to Predicto is yet another point in favor of Feminization.

[Jumbo]

There's a lot of different facts and comments in my post, steven aa, so I'm not sure exactly what your brief, but broad responses, referred to exactly.

[ChocolateCitySkin]

I just want to reiterate my point. Look at the italians. We have nothing to worry about.

[unsonny]

I had a discussion the other day with a friend of mine that was interesting. He's convinced that men are being taught to be weaker and less masculine. I could post his arguments but I don't want this discussion to center around whe he's right or wrong but instead what you folks think on the subject.

So what do you people think?

we just need to.......................

and stop being bizatches!!!!

[Ghost of]

The fact that ghost used the word "quiver" to describe his reaction to Predicto is yet another point in favor of Feminization.

:laugh: Damn. I'm part of the problem and not the solution.

I've been on this topic before in Tailgate but suffice it to say I think that there is a difference between mindless 'masculine' behavior the likes of which Jumbo describes and what is meant by an emasculated American male.

If a kid gets suspended for using his finger and fist as a gun or drawing a picture of one--yes. If a kid gets suspended for 'sexual harrassment' when the facts don't bear out any kind of intent--yes. If we drug up our boys rather than deal with rambunctiousness and overdiagnose children as ADD-afflicted--YES. If a society can't, with one voice, not sound like a bunch of ___s when there are people who want us exterminated or subjugated--YES.

I'd argue that the behavior Jumbo describes is what happens in a society where manliness (in the proper sense) and honor are subject to unreasonable constraints and so 'punks' develop as an irrational and 'anarchistic' psycho-social response to emasculation.

[cjcdaman]

myth? :laugh:

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh: What a ****ing pansy!!!