Official: Evidence points to unjustified killings by Marines

[chomerics]

Quote Chom

"

In fact it really doesn't matter if it happened or not now does it? I mean the dammage has already ben done, "

It matters to me.

I have followed this story for months and it is plain there were wrongs done,exactly how and by who is still to be determined and should not be bandied about as a political toy. Partial releases of facts does Nothing but inflame the issue and create even more damage.

Exactly my point, you want to keep every thing silent and not discuss the issue. That is fine and your perrogative, but don't say someone is wrong for actually debating what happened.

You already know something horrible happened, yet you want to with hold judgement until a trial, fine with me that is your choice, just don't try to say someone is wrong for debating the issues before the trial. For me, personally, I would like to discuss how this undermines the war effort, and destroys our credibility immensely, if not completely.

One more thing,to all the people who say that I would like to be the judge, jury and exocutioner, what do you think these soldiers did?

[chomerics]

Example of rushing to judgement:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/05/27/AR2006052700846.html

A year ago I was charged with two counts of premeditated murder and with other war crimes related to my service in Iraq. My wife and mother sat in a Camp Lejeune courtroom for five days while prosecutors painted me as a monster; then autopsy evidence blew their case out of the water, and the Marine Corps dropped all charges against me ["Marine Officer Cleared in Killing of Two Iraqis," news story, May 27, 2005].

Yet, this is an entirely different story. Did you read any of the links on Google? Did you watch Murtha on Meet the Press?

And yes, if these guys are found not guilty, then I will completely retract everything I have stated. Unfortunately, revered USCongressmen don't have a habit of saying things like this happened when they didn't. . .but the real problem I have is that the Marines were not charged until AFTER it became public (in otherwords, a keep your mouth shut and it will be OK policy). I can imagine that other Marines are sickened by this story.

[Jumbo]

Potentially bad news. CNN just reported that a high-ranking Pentagon officer has said the findings indicate it was a band of "renegede" marines who "went-off" because of a comrade getting killed and "went on a rampage." Now this has obviously yet to be comfirmed, but based on my judgment and awareness of media, the manner and wording of this report as presented does not bode well. Confirmation is expected soon.

[twa]

Time.com has several decent articles on the subject.

http://www.time.com/time/world/article/0,8599,1198977,00.html

[BlueTalon]

I find it telling that the media NEVER reports something like "Marines have built 16 schools in the last two months, and re-established water and power to 40% of Baghdad" when the details are still sketchy.

[Baculus]

I think it has to be understood that in all wars, no matter the fighting force, there are instances of unit discipline breaking down: It is a fact of human nature that oversteeps even rigorous military training. By and large, the United States has been a civilized force in Iraq, but we cannot say that it is impossible that the discussed incident could have happened. It is the nature of war, and being a soldier, that can create a situation where a man may act out of the bounds of his culture, his personality or rationale, or his doctrine as a soldier trained to fight in the rules of engagement. After all, war is an unnatural act for the common civilized man: We are indoctrinated to value life as a civilian, but trained to kill without hesistation on the battlefield if his or her life is at threat. It is an age old story, and I doubt if this will be the last time we'll hear of such acts happening by soldiers of a civilized nation.

We should not jump to conclusions either way, though, until all the details have been released. If this did indeed happen, it is shameful that it would have been covered up to the point that military investigators did not know it happened due to deceit on the part of some parties.

We also have realize there are military court of laws to deal with such horrible and illegal actions. But we should make sure that this does not become painted as the normal routine of U.S. forces and the U.S.M.C.

Incidentally, this action demonstrates why urban fighting is one of the most difficult combat environments. And I think it is a little aburd to also suggest that if we had a "gloves off" attitude in Iraq this war would be "won." At what point would we be merely become another murderous replacement for Saddam if we did have little rules of engagement with civilians? Perhaps the U.S. would then indeed be a rogue nation with little face of being civilized.

[skinfan133]

I find it telling that the media NEVER reports something like "Marines have built 16 schools in the last two months, and re-established water and power to 40% of Baghdad" when the details are still sketchy.

absolutely. dispicable situation if all detalis are acurate; even mre dispicable that this makes front headlines everywhere when progress in that country does not.

[webnarc]

I find it telling that the media NEVER reports something like "Marines have built 16 schools in the last two months, and re-established water and power to 40% of Baghdad" when the details are still sketchy.

What time do they have to build schools anymore? They're being attacked like crazy.

And you know as well as anyone that bad news sells, special interest stories about Iraq doesn't.

[chomerics]

I find it telling that the media NEVER reports something like "Marines have built 16 schools in the last two months, and re-established water and power to 40% of Baghdad" when the details are still sketchy.

Yes they do report it, it just doesn't sell. Also, it is kinda hard to say all you are doing is rebuilding the country, when the power and oil production are still at pre-war levels.

[Mad Mike]

I think it has to be understood that in all wars, no matter the fighting force, there are instances of unit discipline breaking down: It is a fact of human nature that oversteeps even rigorous military training. By and large, the United States has been a civilized force in Iraq, but we cannot say that it is impossible that the discussed incident could have happened. It is the nature of war, and being a soldier, that can create a situation where a man may act out of the bounds of his culture, his personality or rationale, or his doctrine as a soldier trained to fight in the rules of engagement. After all, war is an unnatural act for the common civilized man: We are indoctrinated to value life as a civilian, but trained to kill without hesistation on the battlefield if his or her life is at threat. It is an age old story, and I doubt if this will be the last time we'll hear of such acts happening by soldiers of a civilized nation.

We should not jump to conclusions either way, though, until all the details have been released. If this did indeed happen, it is shameful that it would have been covered up to the point that military investigators did not know it happened due to deceit on the part of some parties.

We also have realize there are military court of laws to deal with such horrible and illegal actions. But we should make sure that this does not become painted as the normal routine of U.S. forces and the U.S.M.C.

Incidentally, this action demonstrates why urban fighting is one of the most difficult combat environments. And I think it is a little aburd to also suggest that if we had a "gloves off" attitude in Iraq this war would be "won." At what point would we be merely become another murderous replacement for Saddam if we did have little rules of engagement with civilians? Perhaps the U.S. would then indeed be a rogue nation with little face of being civilized.

Nice rational post.

As to the issue some people have raised regarding the reaction of other marines and their leadership. I would imagine they of all people understand that those in question may have snapped under extreme mental stress. That doesn't meant that its OK, it just means that those who are brothers in arms are going to want to be sure that they do not rush to judgement.

[OaktonSkins/BushFan]

So much for being "official".... :doh:

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=politicsNews&storyid=2006-05-29T142614Z_01_N28449010_RTRUKOC_0_US-IRAQ-USA-MARINES.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - Charges will be brought against U.S. Marines if an investigation into the alleged killing of unarmed Iraqi civilians uncovers wrongdoing, the chairman of the U.S. Joint Chiefs of Staff said on Monday.

Marine Gen. Peter Pace also told CNN that he still did not know why it had taken nearly three months for the Pentagon to find out about the November 19 incident in the Iraqi town of Haditha, in which up to 24 civilians were killed.

"If the allegations as they are being portrayed in the newspapers turn out to be valid, then of course there'll be charges," Pace, the highest ranking U.S. military officer and primary military advisor to the president and defense secretary, said.

Pace said the Pentagon had not found out about the incident until Feb 10.

"We do not know yet why we did not know," he said.

The U.S. military has said 15 civilians were killed in Haditha, about 140 miles northwest of Baghdad. Other accounts put the number at around 24.

A U.S. defense official said on Friday Marines could face criminal charges, possibly including murder, in what would be the worst case of abuse by American soldiers in Iraq since the 2003 invasion.

"I don't suspect anything," Pace said. "I want to wait for the investigation. We will find out what happened and we will make it public, but to speculate right now wouldn't do anyone any good."

[click link for rest]

[Destino]

No. I will try to explain. War has no boundaries and rules, if it did it would be a killing game. Therefore, in a war such as this where you don't know who is the enemy and who is innocent and most of the time it's too late to find out, you have to CYA and make sure you are a feared unit.

If you haven't worn the prestigious Eagle, Globe and Anchor then you will not understand my viewpoint and we can agree to disagree.

The Bush administration effed up I am not going to sugar coat it. If the Armed Forces were given orders of a fast and hard attack, instead of a slow and steady one, we would not be having conversations such as this because the war would be over. Since we now live in a world where 90% of American males (who call themselves "metrosexuals") under the age of 18 have never been in a fist fight, we have become a soft nation where everyone doesn't want to offend anyone. So, now we have to walk on eggshells as to not offend the Arab world and try to make friends. EFF THAT!! MAN UP!! If history repeats itself, then the Arab world will stab us in the back just like every other time we have tried to help them.

I read that and frankly was somewhat stunned by it. I have one question that you may or may not find offensive. Do you follow any particular religion? I want to get a feel as to where exactly you get your moral concepts.

[Seabee1973]

What time do they have to build schools anymore? They're being attacked like crazy.

And you know as well as anyone that bad news sells, special interest stories about Iraq doesn't.

They are building schools and roads and other buildings all the time if a reporter over there would venture out instead of staying near there hotel they would no that.

[skinfan133]

This wanton disregard for innocent life sounds familiar.

Saddam, is that you?

I hope like hell that this story is wrong.

im sorry to sound rough but a few unwarented rouge marines does not constitute the actions of my beloved corps nor my beloved American Military and certaintly as despicable as the situation was does not draw comparison to random meaningless executions by a ruthless tyrant.

[Prosperity]

absolutely. dispicable situation if all detalis are acurate; even mre dispicable that this makes front headlines everywhere when progress in that country does not.

Assuming the reports are true you would think that the murder of innocent Iraqis is less despicable than the reports of it?

Damn I know you love the corp but you need to get your priorities straight.

[Thiebear]

Yes they do report it, it just doesn't sell. Also, it is kinda hard to say all you are doing is rebuilding the country, when the power and oil production are still at pre-war levels.

You sir have been busted saying this 3 or 4 times now:

AGAIN, tell me how the power and oil (you replaced with water from last time) were before war and I'll tell you about now...

Remember to include the ponzi scheme that it was with 45yr old equipment that couldnt be bought anymore.. had to be fabricated or completely replaced..

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2006/20060506_5040.html

As of May 1, the division has 3,614 infrastructure projects planned, representing $11.3 billion. Another 3,206 projects have started for $10.1 billion. Nearly 2,600 projects have been completed for about $6 billion.

And it is working, she said. "Despite 25 years of neglect and a costly insurgency, Iraq's infrastructure is bouncing back and U.S. assistance is having a real impact on the lives of the Iraqi people," she said. In schools alone, U.S. funding has refurbished 831 schools. "We've taken children out of 'mud schools' and put them in modern. Clean buildings conducive to learning," Johnson said.

The projects have added 1,400 megawatts of electricity to the national grid, and the engineers have overseen 137 distribution projects. As the hot summer months approach, electricity is a concern. "The availability of electricity is governed not only by planned and unplanned maintenance, but also interdictions," Johnson said. "The best plans we have and targets we put in place are always subject to events of the day."

If terrorists don't blow up transmission lines, distribution nodes and power generating plants, there should be enough power to give all residents of Iraq 12 hours of electricity per day, officials said.

The projects have added almost 1.2 million cubic meters of water per day to the system, which benefits almost 6 million Iraqis. All told, the projects provide 8.4 million Iraqis with potable drinking water.

They've completed 33 sewer projects, built 67 fire stations and 303 police stations. They have completed eight airport projects, all now FAA certified. They have completed four port projects and put in place an advanced first responder network system that covers 16 million Iraqis living in 14 provinces.

Iraq pumps about 2.5 million barrels of oil to the world each day. The division is funding projects that will boost that output to 3 million barrels per day.

Security remains a huge challenge to reconstruction in Iraq. Johnson said the cost of security varies by project type, and the area the project is in. "Our calculated average is around 18 to 22 percent of the reconstruction costs have gone to security," she said.

[Hokieskin]

Um, are you honestly saying that cold-blooded murder of a dozen unarmed women and children is "just doing their jobs"?!?!?!?!?!

You and I appear to have differing opinions of what "their jobs" are.

Did they say it was unarmed women and children? I missed that. I thought the article said civilians which could include men.

[G-Prime]

What, you didn't know that G.W. invented Hurricane Katrina, and orchestrated 9/11?

No that was Patrick Ramsey you got it all wrong

[Predicto]

If this is true, it is abhorrent, but I will wait to see what the evidence is.

I will not presume anything.

Wanting to know the truth about what happened is not an attack on our military.

[AlexRS]

Did you think lack of proper oversight would result only in contractors overcharging taxpayers?

[Redskins Diehard]

If this is true, it is abhorrent, but I will wait to see what the evidence is.

I will not presume anything.

Wanting to know the truth about what happened is not an attack on our military.

I agree. As long as the thirst for knowledge is equal across all fronts, good and bad then I think that is 100% the correct approach. Some in this thread seem to assume the worst unless concrete evidence exists to the contrary.

Killing innocents is wrong on many levels in my opinion. And even for people that assume there are no innocents over there, indiscriminate killing will hinder, not help, accomplish the mission.

[Predicto]

I agree. As long as the thirst for knowledge is equal across all fronts, good and bad then I think that is 100% the correct approach. Some in this thread seem to assume the worst unless concrete evidence exists to the contrary.

Well, be honest. There IS already some evidence here - the reports are quoting real people. This evidence may be false, this evidence may be mistaken, but some sort of evidence exists that something really wrong may have happened here.

Many people in this thread seem to assume this evidence is made-up or mistaken and that the people making the inquiries have an anti-American agenda in doing so, and they attack the people who are asking questions for their alleged lack of patriotism.

A knee jerk defense is no better than a knee jerk attack.

[Redskins Diehard]

Well, be honest. There IS already some evidence here - the reports are quoting real people. This evidence may be false, this evidence may be mistaken, but some sort of evidence exists that something really wrong may have happened here.

Many people in this thread seem to assume this evidence is made-up or mistaken and that the people making the inquiries have an anti-American agenda in doing so, and they attack the people who are asking questions for their alleged lack of patriotism.

A knee jerk defense is no better than a knee jerk attack.

I didn't make that statement with only this specific incident in mind. I have been very consistent about the benefit of looking at the good and the bad in making an assessment of what is going on over there. I do see plenty on both sides that ignore any and everything that does not further their position.

Regardless of the outcome of the investigation and any subsequent trials, this particular incident is very harmful to our efforts, both here at home and in Iraq. That I do not believe is disputable.

Understand that the enemy is waging "Psyops" on us with as much, and probably more, vigor than we are waging on them. In fact, they have brought a great many Americans over to their side. (And I don't mean that in the "if you oppose OIF, then you are the enemy" kind of way. I mean that in the "we are doing nothing right" crowd kind of way.)

Your last sentence is exactly right, and should be applied to all of these reports.

[Predicto]

I didn't make that statement with only this specific incident in mind. I have been very consistent about the benefit of looking at the good and the bad in making an assessment of what is going on over there. I do see plenty on both sides that ignore any and everything that does not further their position.

Regardless of the outcome of the investigation and any subsequent trials, this particular incident is very harmful to our efforts, both here at home and in Iraq. That I do not believe is disputable.

Understand that the enemy is waging "Psyops" on us with as much, and probably more, vigor than we are waging on them. In fact, they have brought a great many Americans over to their side. (And I don't mean that in the "if you oppose OIF, then you are the enemy" kind of way. I mean that in the "we are doing nothing right" crowd kind of way.)

Your last sentence is exactly right, and should be applied to all of these reports.

I agree, kinda.

But I also think that the way the US ultimately will win the psyops war is not by being more deceptive and manipulative than our opponents. It is by being more honest and more open, and by always attempting to be forthright in our deeds and actions (and investigations). Be America, the land of ideals and principles and honest best efforts, not just America, the biggest badazz on the block. That is how you get the man on the street on you side, and how you win the long term conflict.

[chomerics]

You sir have been busted saying this 3 or 4 times now:

AGAIN, tell me how the power and oil (you replaced with water from last time) were before war and I'll tell you about now...

Remember to include the ponzi scheme that it was with 45yr old equipment that couldnt be bought anymore.. had to be fabricated or completely replaced..

http://www.defenselink.mil/news/May2006/20060506_5040.html

No Bear, you have FALSELY called me out and tried to use numbers saying my facts are not correct, when they are.

Here are the facts. . .

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/28/ap/world/mainD8H969Q00.shtml

In 2005, Iraq's exports averaged just 1.4 million barrels a day, which earned the country about $26 billion. This winter proved disastrous, with January exports failing to reach even 1 million barrels a day, said George Orwel, an analyst with Petroleum Intelligence Weekly in New York.

"It's a mess," he said. "At some point Iraq is going to be back in the picture, but it's been a very bad couple of years. They're missing out."

In 1990, probably its peak production year, Iraq extracted about 3.5 million barrels a day. Restoring production to that level would require years and a $30 billion investment, Orwel said, even in the "best case scenario."

Those figures suggest misplaced optimism by Iraq's oil ministry, which in 2005 predicted crude production would reach 2.5 million or even 3 million barrels a day by the end of 2006. Analysts have called that prediction a pipe dream.

The outlook for this year looks about the same as 2005, Orwel said, casting doubt even on the ministry's revised plans to raise exports to 1.8 million barrels a day by year's end.

What was their pre-war production???

Iraq's oil wells — beset by equipment problems and saboteurs — are producing about 1.9 million barrels a day in net production, lower than the 2.6 million it was producing just before the 2003 U.S.-led invasion, according to the London-based Centre for Global Energy Studies (CGES).

OUCH!!! That would be 33% short of the pre-war production!!! How again is it that you have called me out Bear?

Now for electricity. . .

At the Al-Dora power station in Baghdad on May 3, the deputy manager of the plant, Bashir Khalaf Omair, said that electricity output in Iraq prior to the March, 2003 invasion was around 5,000 Megawatts (MW) a day.

So please dig out the information again about how you scolded me Bear, because you are wrong yet again. . . :doh1: