Do you believe in Satan ?

[MisterPinstripe]

In theory if you can live you life without any sin than you may stand a chance, but since you nor anyone else can, you have to have faith in Christ and accept his sacrifice for your sins for you to get into heaven. If you do one sinful thing, even a little tiny white lie, you are seperated from God and Heaven without Christ

Well put. I think a clearer response then mine.

[ashburnskinsfan]

What happens is people read it and dont like what they read. Dont like that they have to answer to someone, dont like the rules. They want to live their lives the way they want to live them, not Gods ways. Very basically, thats how. It is sad.

Wrong, but thanks for the judgement anyway. :laugh:

There is some great poetry and wisdom in the Bible, but many ancient cultures and religions also have great literature too.

From reading the Bible, it's numerous contradictions and errors were apparent to me, as well as numerous passages with quite repugnant content. A number of its core messages are either deeply harmful to society, or are interpreted that way by misguided Christians.

To me, it is obvious that the Bible is not divinely inspired, it does not have divinely revealed truth. I don't spend my Sundays at church. Working with youth, many of whom are at risk, seems a better way to use my time.

When I see the language and actions of many devout Christians, I often think that if there is a divine being with a heaven and hell, it's pretty sure we'll be going to different places. I won't speculate, who will end up where though.

[Baculus]

I was raised with a more subdued form of Christianity, but I am always weary about the "fire and brimstone" version I hear from some folks. To me, this is not a "good" God, always threatening its followers with death and destruction if things aren't done his way. In fact, it's a dictatorship. Also, if you read the Old Testament, it is God, and not the Devil, that is constantly using or threatening to use fire to burn and punish. You can see why some Muslims, who also observe the Old Testament, are sometimes violent and absolute with their ideas of punishment.

What if, in fact, as part of any great deception by the Devil, is that the "God" of the Old Testament, a god that is much more violent then the New Testament God of Jesus, was actually Satan himself? I mean, there is some really nasty stuff in the Old Testament:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm

Yes, I am sure I am a heritic that will burn in hell.

[techboy]

I am strangely reminded of two quotes.

"A local boy kicked me in the butt last week,

I just smiled at him, and I turned the other cheek,

I really don't mind, in fact I wish him well,

'Cause I'll be laughing my head off when he's burning in Hell"

- "Weird Al" Yankovic, Amish Paradise

"Everything it says in the Bible is true. I know that, because it says so in the Bible. And, if you will refer to my earlier statement, you will see that everything it says in the Bible is true."- Stephen Colbert (perhaps not exact- it's from memory)

[G-Prime]

So what about those that choose on their own by reading the bible and accepting it as truth? THey are not indoctrinated.

*just a thought* The funniest thing is that people always say christians pick and choose what they want out of the Bible (while some may most don't), historians do exactly that, they use the Bible for all their needs, since it is one of the oldest historical records in existance, but they pick and choose what they use, Now that is ironic

I am one of these people your referring too. My grandparents were heavily faithful but I was never exposed to them very much, a month in the summer after school let out was all and they never even mentioned me going to church.

My parent's aren't religious at all, I don't even think my father believes in God. No one indoctrinated me. I went to church twice in my youth and I vaguely remember it. As a teenager I was arrested for use and manufacturing of explosive devices and endless drug and dispute related charges. I drank, screwed and hurt a lot of people with lies.

One day I was tired of it all, I hated myself. I laid in my bed and prayed and I have prayed every day since. I've not touched a drug or hurt a soul. Jesus took me in and accepted me at my worst when no one else would. Where only evil existed he ignited the good inside me. Every aspect of my life felt healthier, my relationships were improved and I felt better about myself. Not immediately, but I began having successes in my life, school, football, parent's. Everything fell into place for one reason. I prayed and asked Jesus for help and he answered me.

There's nothing logical about a heroin addicted 14 year old stopping cold turkey. Where'd the strength come from? There were times I tried to quit before and it didn't work. Where's the logic? Explain to me how it happened logically.

In my mind logically it happened because I recognized Jesus as my savior and he saved me, plane and simple. No one can take that away from me or convince me it was anything else, it's just impossible.

[ashburnskinsfan]

Do you have to be both an atheist and a freethinker to join, or just one or the other? If the later is true, could a Christian or Muslim freethinker join? Similarly could an atheist bound-thinker join?

Eh, it doesn't matter. I'm not in the military so I know I don't qualify.

That would be a question for the membership committee.

I'm sure they also take secular humanists.

[vinva]

I as a Christian don't like having to point out that someone will go to Hell, trust me it ain't fun, I prefer to point out how to get to Heaven, kind of a nicer way of things. But the fact still remains Faith= heaven, good Deeds-faith= hell

Not our rules just Gods

All I can do is shake my head...

What makes you think that you are to be able to tell people that they are going to hell? If you can truly see into peoples' hearts, why don't you give God a day off and take over for a little bit. It's this kind of self-smugness that completely invalidates the fundie movment.

[Jumbo]

You are kind of generalizing and jumboling all Christians into the same group. Good many people profess to be Christains but arent. They are Christians on sunday, but then once they are out of the church they act like everyone else. Christians leave and try to act as the bible tells them. Now of course they fail, because no one is perfect and we all sin, but while a Christian ends up sinning, once he does he or she knows they did. And they repent of it and asking God for forgiveness and to help them in the future.

Well said, and my friends who know me here in 4 dimensions would have a field day with "jumboling" :laugh:

[vinva]

Edit -- If someone reads the bible and sees what Jesus taught and goes hey, thats a good idea, I will follow that, and doesnt believe in Jesus that person is still going to hell. The only way to get into heaven is by believing in Jesus, and its really not hard to do that.

So all Jews for all eternity have gone to hell? How about pre-Jesus?

[Seabee1973]

I have vivid memories of my last experiences in Catholic School in religion classes. One of the particularly long-lasting memories involves this same teaching- to be wary of the devil. Specifically, the lesson talked of cultish practices and ways that the devil may sneak up on you. I remember the teacher asked "Who here has played games with a Ouija board?" I was silent and looked around (I had never played with one, but I also knew a trick when I saw it)... and this unfortunate girl who seemed to get picked on constantly - and was constantly driven close to tears by this teacher - raised her hand.

The teacher ended up chastising her and saying that even though you think you're just having fun the devil can take the board over and, without arousing any suspicion at all from you, influence you to do something you might not have otherwise done.

I understand the teacher's point (from her point of view), and I think this sort of thing should be something you are wary of if you believe in demons and devil(s).

speaking of Ouija boards I had a friend who used one for awhile and he told me some funny but scary stories about them

[MisterPinstripe]

Wrong, but thanks for the judgement anyway. :laugh:

There is some great poetry and wisdom in the Bible, but many ancient cultures and religions also have great literature too.

From reading the Bible, it's numerous contradictions and errors were apparent to me, as well as numerous passages with quite repugnant content. A number of its core messages are either deeply harmful to society, or are interpreted that way by misguided Christians.

To me, it is obvious that the Bible is not divinely inspired, it does not have divinely revealed truth. I don't spend my Sundays at church. Working with youth, many of whom are at risk, seems a better way to use my time.

When I see the language and actions of many devout Christians, I often think that if there is a divine being with a heaven and hell, it's pretty sure we'll be going to different places. I won't speculate, who will end up where though.

I wasnt really referring to you, because I dont really know you at all so say either way. I was referring to people I had met and how in general that was basically it. Where in the bible does it contradict itself and what are these errors? Just give me a few so I can contemplate them. If you want PM them to me and we can discuss it there.

[ashburnskinsfan]

I as a Christian don't like having to point out that someone will go to Hell, trust me it ain't fun, I prefer to point out how to get to Heaven, kind of a nicer way of things. But the fact still remains Faith= heaven, good Deeds-faith= hell

Not our rules just Gods

Ah ... but your malevolent dictator god does not exist.

[MonkeySkin]

In theory if you can live you life without any sin than you may stand a chance, but since you nor anyone else can, you have to have faith in Christ and accept his sacrifice for your sins for you to get into heaven. If you do one sinful thing, even a little tiny white lie, you are seperated from God and Heaven without Christ

So let's say there's some dude on a island somewhere, and never heard of the Bible, or Jesus. But this guy is a good person, and has a good heart, and doesn't do any wrong... He's going to hell right?

IMO, some of you guys were just a birth place away from being a terrorist.

[MisterPinstripe]

So all Jews for all eternity have gone to hell? How about pre-Jesus?

I can not say whether they did or not. I do not know their thoughts or their beliefs. All I know is what Jesus said. I am not saying that I can point to one person and say they are going to heaven and hell. All myself or anyone else in this thread is saying is that those who do not believe in Jesus will go to hell, not that we can point those out that are going to go there. Heck, if I stop believing I will go to hell.

All I can do is shake my head...

What makes you think that you are to be able to tell people that they are going to hell? If you can truly see into peoples' hearts, why don't you give God a day off and take over for a little bit. It's this kind of self-smugness that completely invalidates the fundie movment.

As I said above, no one said they are telling people they are going to hell. No one said so and so is going to hell. What we have said is if so and so does not believe in Jesus they will go to hell. No where in that statement do we say we say who is going to hell or not, or that we know someones heart. Please refrain from putting words and peoples mouths. Do not assume.

[techboy]

So all Jews for all eternity have gone to hell? How about pre-Jesus?

The Bible teaches that before Jesus, salavation was gained through faith in the coming Messiah. See Hebrews 11.

[MisterPinstripe]

Ah ... but your malevolent god does not exist.

Well, we shall see wont we? If he doesnt exists, no one will know, and no one will care. But if he does, not only will we all know, but a lot of people will really care and wish they had believed. :2cents:

[MisterPinstripe]

So let's say there's some dude on a island somewhere, and never heard of the Bible, or Jesus. But this guy is a good person, and has a good heart, and doesn't do any wrong... He's going to hell right?

IMO, some of you guys were just a birth place away from being a terrorist.

I believe it is something along the lines of ignorance is no excuse. Thats what the bible says. One can look around at the world and see God everywhere. He may not know Gods name, but he can know there is a God. But ignorance of the word is no excuse, but those who have heard the word and still deny it are worst off.

[Mr. Nostril]

I was raised with a more subdued form of Christianity, but I am always weary about the "fire and brimstone" version I hear from some folks. To me, this is not a "good" God, always threatening its followers with death and destruction if things aren't done his way. In fact, it's a dictatorship. Also, if you read the Old Testament, it is God, and not the Devil, that is constantly using or threatening to use fire to burn and punish. You can see why some Muslims, who also observe the Old Testament, are sometimes violent and absolute with their ideas of punishment.

What if, in fact, as part of any great deception by the Devil, is that the "God" of the Old Testament, a god that is much more violent then the New Testament God of Jesus, was actually Satan himself? I mean, there is some really nasty stuff in the Old Testament:

http://www.nobeliefs.com/DarkBible/DarkBibleContents.htm

Yes, I am sure I am a heritic that will burn in hell.

Well, I for one, found the the second paragraph of this to be the most interesting thought I've heard in a while. I skimmed through your link, and figured I must be more versed in the attrocities mentioned in scripture than most people, because I found none of it particularly shocking. Do you have any links or reccomend any books with a more fleshed out version of theory you mentioned about the Old Testament God being Satan? Or is that just something you came up with on your own? Or what?

[Crazyhorse1]

If you checked yes, try to grasp this concept: unless you have the excuse of being a child, you are not likely to ever become a rational human being .

[techboy]

So let's say there's some dude on a island somewhere, and never heard of the Bible, or Jesus. But this guy is a good person, and has a good heart, and doesn't do any wrong... He's going to hell right?

IMO, some of you guys were just a birth place away from being a terrorist.

I'm going to be lazy and quote myself.

Thiebear and Yusuf06: I'm not entirely sure that your questions were answered to your satisfaction, in terms of what the Bible teaches, so I'll give it a shot.

First, Thiebear, when you ask about whether a rapist/murderer who sincerely accepts Jesus 15 seconds before he is executed (I'm embellishing to make it an even more severe contrast) can go to heaven while the charity worker who spent every minute of his waking life helping others will not, there is a simple Biblical answer, one that has already been given you.

Yes.

The problem is that you are focusing on good works from a human point of view (or even a Biblical point of view), and ignoring how God looks at things.

Romans 3:23 says that all have sinned and fallen short of the glory of God. This includes the humanitarian. At some point in his life, he lied, or hated his brother, or cheated on his taxes, or whatever. Probably a lot more than once. And, as rightly pointed out earlier, Jesus taught that if you break one commandment you break all of them. So, in God's eyes, they're both sinners.

Romans 6:23 says that the wages of sin is death. This is a spiritual death, or eternity apart from God, or Hell, however you want to call it. The basic concept is that God is perfect, and will not abide the presence of sin. Sin causes permanent seperation from God.

So, from God's perspective, both the rapist/murderer and the humanitarian have sin, which He will not abide. Without the intervention of Jesus, both go to Hell. With the intervention of Jesus, both go to Heaven. Each has the chance, so this is not unfair. If the humanitarian rejects this chance, and the murderer/rapist accepts it, then yes, the m/r (abbreviation!) goes to Heaven and the humanitarian goes to Hell. That's what the Bible teaches.

What the Bible also teaches, though, is that there are different levels of reward in Heaven, and different levels of punishment in Hell. (see Luke 12:47–48; Prov. 24:12; Matt. 16:27; Col. 3:25; Rev. 20:11–15). So, although the m/r gets into Heaven, he likely receives almost no reward. Likewise, although the humanitarian gets sent to Hell, he very likely is suffering far less than Hitler (to use yet another over the top example).

One last thing you need to consider is that you need to look at this from God's perspective. He condescends to take human flesh, suffers horribly, and dies for the sins of the world. The humanitarian, hearing this, refuses to accept that free gift. He throws it back in God's face, saying he can do it on his own. Does he really deserve to spend eternity with the God he rejected? Would he even want to?

Anyway, that's what the Bible says. Obviously, it's up to you to believe it or not.

Part two, raised mostly by Yusuf06, is what happens to the person who never hears about Jesus. Let me get the cliched answer out of the way first: This is actually kind of irrelevant, since anyone who is discussing the problem isn't affected by it. You've heard the Gospel, and so must make a choice. Now, then, what does the Bible say about those who have not heard the gospel?

Nothing.

Nothing direct, anyway.

There is nothing Scriptural that I am aware of, for example, to support the idea that those who never hear will not be condemned.

There are several possible answers to this question, though.

The Calvinist, who believes in predestination (that God chooses those to be saved, and we have no free will in the matter) will likely say that those who do not hear were not chosen.

In Romans 1 18-20 Paul says this:

18The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of men who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20For since the creation of the world God's invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that men are without excuse.

In this, and other verses, the Bible says that all know God through His creation. So, another answer is that the person who has not heard, has, as Paul says, "no excuse". He should still seek God through the revelation of nature.

One theory is that as many in the Old Testament were saved for their faith in the coming Messiah, these could be saved by their faith in God as revealed in their hearts and nature.

There are other theories, too, such as the idea that God will allow each unwitnessed-to person a chance to hear supernaturally, or perhaps something else entirely.

As I said, though, the Bible makes nor direct statement about it. Perhaps this is because it's not a practical situation, since as I said, anyone debating it is going to have heard. If God had put everything in the Bible, it'd be too big! (It's late, and I'm coming up blank on a ridiculous size analogy). I do think, though, that it would be irresponsible to answer more specifically, or with any definitive nature, on what happens to those who do not hear, because there's no specific Scripture that specifically deals with it.

There's just no way a Christian can honestly give a definitive Scriptural answer to the question.

What I do know with certainty, though, is that God is just, and whatever He does, none will have cause to complain.

Again, though, this is what the Bible says about things. If you don't believe the Bible, then I suggest you sleep in on Sunday mornings.

[70th Week]

I am one of these people your referring too. My grandparents were heavily faithful but I was never exposed to them very much, a month in the summer after school let out was all and they never even mentioned me going to church.

My parent's aren't religious at all, I don't even think my father believes in God. No one indoctrinated me. I went to church twice in my youth and I vaguely remember it. As a teenager I was arrested for use and manufacturing of explosive devices and endless drug and dispute related charges. I drank, screwed and hurt a lot of people with lies.

One day I was tired of it all, I hated myself. I laid in my bed and prayed and I have prayed every day since. I've not touched a drug or hurt a soul. Jesus took me in and accepted me at my worst when no one else would. Where only evil existed he ignited the good inside me. Every aspect of my life felt healthier, my relationships were improved and I felt better about myself. Not immediately, but I began having successes in my life, school, football, parent's. Everything fell into place for one reason. I prayed and asked Jesus for help and he answered me.

There's nothing logical about a heroin addicted 14 year old stopping cold turkey. Where'd the strength come from? There were times I tried to quit before and it didn't work. Where's the logic? Explain to me how it happened logically.

In my mind logically it happened because I recognized Jesus as my savior and he saved me, plane and simple. No one can take that away from me or convince me it was anything else, it's just impossible.

Excellent testimony Goth! :applause: I see no one's touching that one! :laugh:

[Goaldeje]

The problem with these discussions is that the two sides are operating on different playing fields, yet still trying to play together. As many quotes in this thread have said, Jesus says ...., or, Jesus did....., well, you have to understand to people who don't believe in Jesus, that is irrelevent. If people do not believe He existed, or that the Bible is real, quoting the Bible to prove a point is counter-productive. Its a circular arguement. And guess what? They're right. You can't really prove that Jesus walked on water, b/c you weren't there. It's great that the Bible says it, but to them, that doesn't matter.

On the other hand, neither can they disprove it. Why? They weren't there. Furthermore, there aren;t any conflicting reports. In other words, if a verifiable historical document surfaced saying that Jesus absolutely did not walk on water, instead the disciples constructed an elaborate ruse, we could have an intelligent discussion. But you people saying here and now 2000 years later that it didn't happen is just as irrelevent to the first group as them throwing scripture passages at you.

As a side note to the Christians: what exactly are you hoping to accomplish? Do you really think somebody on a message board is going to come to know Christ b/c you present the Gospel to them? I mean, it could happen, but what then? Christ talks about discipling and baptizing, and how are you going to do that through a message board? Not saying it's hopeless by any stretch, just interesting. The other alternative I could see is people who want to defend their faith/savior/beliefs/religion. If you are a Christian, the only sermon Christ ever preached has him tell us "Blessed are those who mourn" and directly after that, "Blessed are the Meek". These two work in conjunction with each other.

We mourn b/c we realize how sinful we are, and how much we need Christ's help. When we realize how enthralled in sin we are, we have no choice but to become meek. We realize anything good in us is of God, and let God defend what He chooses to. The rest is of us, and not worth defending. To get to a point, let God defend what he chooses to defend. If folks on this board or in life want to attack God/Christ/etc., let them. Christ had numerous opportunities to strike back against those who did so to Him. Think about it.

[ashburnskinsfan]

Well, we shall see wont we? If he doesnt exists, no one will know, and no one will care. But if he does, not only will we all know, but a lot of people will really care and wish they had believed. :2cents:

Ah ... Pascal's Wager makes an appearance. :doh:

There are, and have been, thousands of different major religions and sects throughout history. What are the chances you picked the right one? For most people their religion is determined by their parents or where they were born.

Chances are you probably picked the wrong one. Are you feeling lucky?

If there is a judgement day, at least I can't be accused of worshipping a false god.

[Coach Williams]

I'm feeling really good right now because I am seeing I'm not the only one here now......

[MisterPinstripe]

Well, I for one, found the the second paragraph of this to be the most interesting thought I've heard in a while. I skimmed through your link, and figured I must be more versed in the attrocities mentioned in scripture than most people, because I found none of it particularly shocking. Do you have any links or reccomend any books with a more fleshed out version of theory you mentioned about the Old Testament God being Satan? Or is that just something you came up with on your own? Or what?

Well just glancing through that link I found a lot of incorrect translations of what the bible actually says. Obviously from someone that has not read the bible very well. Unfortunitly, I am off to work. If this thread is still going when I get back I shall continue the discussions.