Do you believe in Satan ?

[70th Week]

So let me get this straight, you envy the resolve and dedication to religion of the suicide bombers. :doh: To you, that is a sign of true religious devotion. To me, it's a sign of brainwashing, dellusion, insanity.

The Bible has been proven false a thousand times on a thousand different subjects. When a source is proven wrong X amount of times, they lose their "source" status. Copernicus, among others, destroyed the Bible's credibility long ago, that is why the Church tortured him.

When has the bible been proven wrong?Copernicus? :laugh: he was raised his whole life in church.his thoughts on the universe were,in his words,a "hypothosis".seems like you have been hanging out with chomerics lately and reading the gospel of judas :laugh:

[MisterPinstripe]

So let me get this straight, you envy the resolve and dedication to religion of the suicide bombers. :doh: To you, that is a sign of true religious devotion. To me, it's a sign of brainwashing, dellusion, insanity.

The Bible has been proven false a thousand times on a thousand different subjects. When a source is proven wrong X amount of times, they lose their "source" status. Copernicus, among others, destroyed the Bible's credibility long ago, that is why the Church tortured him.

:doh:

[MisterPinstripe]

When has the bible been proven wrong?Copernicus? :laugh: he was raised his whole life in church.his thoughts on the universe were,in his words,a "hypothosis".seems like you have been hanging out with chomerics lately and reading the gospel of judas :laugh:

Just because something was written hundreds of years after the actual event doesnt mean we cant accept it. It is amazing how quickly anything is accepted that is countary to the bible. No matter what it is. Just goes to show you the desperation. :whoknows:

[Kurd Cudins]

Just because something was written hundreds of years after the actual event doesnt mean we cant accept it. It is amazing how quickly anything is accepted that is countary to the bible. No matter what it is. Just goes to show you the desperation. :whoknows:

Have you ever done that excercise in class where everyone sits in a circle and the teacher says something to a student at one end. In turn, each student passes that message to the student next to him/her until it goes around the circle. Invariably, for a multitude of reasons, the message is altered. Its an excercise in human communication that shows the effects of compounded subtle differences in speech and understanding. Therefore, because something WAS written hundreds of years after the actual event, it DOES mean that it has been altered. I would agree that there is desperation but it is those who hold onto a document even when faced with contradicory, empirical evidence. It's desperation that caused people to hold onto the idea that the world is flat. It's desperation that cause some people in this world to believe the holocaust never happened. its also desperation that causes people to believe that killing themselves for a purpose will grant them special favor with God. You can call people who disregard the bible as just another book as desperate, but I think its desperate to use a book to justify ideas rather use ideas to justify a book. :2cents:

[Midnight Judges]

When has the bible been proven wrong?Copernicus? :laugh: he was raised his whole life in church.his thoughts on the universe were,in his words,a "hypothosis".seems like you have been hanging out with chomerics lately and reading the gospel of judas :laugh:

How old is planet Earth?

Is everyone related to Adam and Eve?

Is Noah's arc true factual history?

Can human beings live to be 700 years old?

Can people walk on water or control it?

Does immaculate conception (magic) exist?

[Seabee1973]

In an odd twist, those same terrorits believe that the West and elements of its belief system, is indeed Satanic and evil. So, to them, they are not carrying out acts of evil. Remember the cry we have heard for years as the United States being described as the "Great Satan?"

Terrorists must have different motivations, but I am not sure if they are possessed, per se, with demons. Some are just really bad or evil men. If there is such a thing as demons, then more likely they would be in charge of the leaders as opposed to the rank and file terrorist, at least in my thinking.

anybody can be possessed with demons or satan

[techboy]

Have you ever done that excercise in class where everyone sits in a circle and the teacher says something to a student at one end. In turn, each student passes that message to the student next to him/her until it goes around the circle. Invariably, for a multitude of reasons, the message is altered. Its an excercise in human communication that shows the effects of compounded subtle differences in speech and understanding. Therefore, because something WAS written hundreds of years after the actual event, it DOES mean that it has been altered.

The best scholarship dates the four Gospels much earlier than that, with Mark being somewhere in the 50's, and the latest (John) being either in the 60's or the 90's, depending upon which school of thought one follows. In either case, it is not the "hundreds" of years being bandied about. It's more like 15 to 20, which is not enough time to create the kind of effect you're talking about, especially since there were many witnesses still alive who could have contradicted the accounts, had they not been true. For a more detailed layout of the evidence used to date the 4 Gospels, see below:

Matthew

Mark

Luke

John

[vinva]

I love reading goportisgo's posts...makes me thankful for my education.

For those of you who insist on taking the Bible literally, I am very curious as to what sect of Christianity you prescribe to?

[Mr. Nostril]

How old is planet Earth?

Is everyone related to Adam and Eve?

Is Noah's arc true factual history?

Can human beings live to be 700 years old?

Can people walk on water or control it?

Does immaculate conception (magic) exist?

You need to learn the definition of the word "proof"

Just because you never seen anyone walk on water and you don't know of any immaculate conceptions, doesn't mean that's it's never happened in certain extrordinary circumstances.

As far as people living to be 700+ years. The Universe is old. Humankind is old. If subtle changes are made in species over the course of time in order to survive, why should we assume that the human life span has always been the same length as it is now?

Also, while no one has proof of the earth's age (proof requires observation, and no one was there when the earth began), I would argue that the Bible doesn't necessarily support a young earth. I know that many Bible believers do, but if you read the Genesis creation story it's pretty obviously poetry. There's no reason to believe that the story of creation was the literal manner in which God created the earth. Honestly, what possible purpose could God have for telling us exactly how the universe was created?

[70th Week]

How old is planet Earth?

Is everyone related to Adam and Eve?

Is Noah's arc true factual history?

Can human beings live to be 700 years old?

Can people walk on water or control it?

Does immaculate conception (magic) exist?

1-the bible doesnt state how old the earth is.it says"in the beginning".

2-no.adam and eve were direct decendants to the line of Jesus.that is why the bible starts with them,it is the story of Jesus,not the history of the world.

3-yes.when it says that the world was destroyed by water,the word "world"was translated improperly as is was meaning a specific location.There is evidence that a major flood did occur in noah's day in that location.

4-no,humans cant now but no evidence says they couldnt then.

5-no,people cannot walk on water,Jesus did.

6-immaculate coception does not exist,except for Jesus.He was God made flesh,and He can do anything He pleases.

you might need to do some more reading with an open mind instead of bashing something that you do not understand. :2cents:

[techboy]

Can people walk on water or control it?

Yes, every winter in Minnesota, and they're called hydrological engineers.

[Goaldeje]

Have you ever done that excercise in class where everyone sits in a circle and the teacher says something to a student at one end. In turn, each student passes that message to the student next to him/her until it goes around the circle. Invariably, for a multitude of reasons, the message is altered. Its an excercise in human communication that shows the effects of compounded subtle differences in speech and understanding. Therefore, because something WAS written hundreds of years after the actual event, it DOES mean that it has been altered. I would agree that there is desperation but it is those who hold onto a document even when faced with contradicory, empirical evidence. It's desperation that caused people to hold onto the idea that the world is flat. It's desperation that cause some people in this world to believe the holocaust never happened. its also desperation that causes people to believe that killing themselves for a purpose will grant them special favor with God. You can call people who disregard the bible as just another book as desperate, but I think its desperate to use a book to justify ideas rather use ideas to justify a book. :2cents:

Interesting arguement, but flawed. There are standards scientists and historians apply to historical documents. Do you realize if we applied your standard how many other historical documents we consider absolute fact would have to be destroyed, or at least rendered unusuable? How often is it that something happens, and someone is there to write it down right away? Not many times, I would think. Word of mouth has to be a generally accepted way of preserving history.

[Kurd Cudins]

The best scholarship dates the four Gospels much earlier than that, with Mark being somewhere in the 50's, and the latest (John) being either in the 60's or the 90's, depending upon which school of thought one follows. In either case, it is not the "hundreds" of years being bandied about. It's more like 15 to 20, which is not enough time to create the kind of effect you're talking about, especially since there were many witnesses still alive who could have contradicted the accounts, had they not been true. For a more detailed layout of the evidence used to date the 4 Gospels, see below:

Matthew

Mark

Luke

John

15 to 20 years? The exercise I discussed was in a classroom and takes 15 to 20 seconds. Over that # of years, like in my example, there would invariably be alterations. These new Gospels of Judas have been proven to be from ancient times, do you believe that they are completely accurate?

Remember, that by quoting the bible you are only reinforcing my idea of desperation of people who use books to prove ideas rather than ideas to prove a book.

[dreamingwolf]

Have you ever done that excercise in class where everyone sits in a circle and the teacher says something to a student at one end. In turn, each student passes that message to the student next to him/her until it goes around the circle. Invariably, for a multitude of reasons, the message is altered. Its an excercise in human communication that shows the effects of compounded subtle differences in speech and understanding. Therefore, because something WAS written hundreds of years after the actual event, it DOES mean that it has been altered. I would agree that there is desperation but it is those who hold onto a document even when faced with contradicory, empirical evidence. It's desperation that caused people to hold onto the idea that the world is flat. It's desperation that cause some people in this world to believe the holocaust never happened. its also desperation that causes people to believe that killing themselves for a purpose will grant them special favor with God. You can call people who disregard the bible as just another book as desperate, but I think its desperate to use a book to justify ideas rather use ideas to justify a book. :2cents:

that is the most horrible example against an oral tradition of record keeping. Just cause you and your classmates are unable to remember things, doesnt mean for all of time humans had equally bad memories. When people dont have devices to record information with, the rely on their memories. Theres a documentary out there about how the printing press destoryed mans memory, and it covers how humans used to retain loads of information before they became lazy and relied on writing stuff down. Trubadors could commit to memory over 10,000 word songs, so its not hard to accept that a group of historians could retain multiple detailed stories. Im not saying the old testament is true or not, but to compare it to a camp fire chain story is both arrogant and ignorant.

[Seabee1973]

"The greatest trick the devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist"

and convincing the world god does not exist

[gchwood]

1-the bible doesnt state how old the earth is.it says"in the beginning".

2-no.adam and eve were direct decendants to the line of Jesus.that is why the bible starts with them,it is the story of Jesus,not the history of the world.

3-yes.when it says that the world was destroyed by water,the word "world"was translated improperly as is was meaning a specific location.There is evidence that a major flood did occur in noah's day in that location.

4-no,humans cant now but no evidence says they couldnt then.

5-no,people cannot walk on water,Jesus did.

6-immaculate coception does not exist,except for Jesus.He was God made flesh,and He can do anything He pleases.

you might need to do some more reading with an open mind instead of bashing something that you do not understand. :2cents:

I am sorry but you are wrong on some of these counts, see God created Adam in his own likeness, than created Eve from him and Adam named her woman. Everyone has to come from them. They had many children, and yes there was imbreeding (it was not considered a sin until later)

The word world has been properly translated many times to mean world, God flooded the World to rid it of evil people and start over with Noah and his wife and their kids (imbreeding was still not a sin yet)

Peter walked on water....

[Goaldeje]

Can people walk on water or control it?

Does immaculate conception (magic) exist?

Go read this book, then get back to me.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0060653019/sr=8-2/qid=1146066936/ref=pd_bbs_2/102-6725469-5284969?%5Fencoding=UTF8

I had trouble specifically with the immaculate conception for a while, because that stuff just doesn't happen. Lewis gives a nice overview of miracles and how they actually logically fit into our world.

As for Satan and God existing, read this book, if you're up to it.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0849945283/qid=1146067037/sr=2-1/ref=pd_bbs_b_2_1/102-6725469-5284969?s=books&v=glance&n=283155

This isn't a book you can quickly skim through. If any of you are serious about being agnostic or atheists and are intellectually inclined at all, I would urge you to read this. And by the way, I am happy to take suggestions from you on the opposing point of view.

[Mass_SkinsFan]

I voted No. Demons and Satan are as real as dragons, mermaids, elves, banshees or basilisks.

I'm going to be totally serious here for a moment....

ashburn, the pantheon and religion I follow includes every single one of "mythical" creatures you mention. I don't knock your religion, don't knock mine.

[techboy]

15 to 20 years? The exercise I discussed was in a classroom and takes 15 to 20 seconds.

Your analogy is flawed because the Gospels were written in one case by a Disciple himself (no need for any transmission at all), and in the other three cases close followers and associates of the Disciples, who interviewed the eyewitnesses. There's no person to person to person transmission. Besides, don't you notice pretty quickly when the message gets corrupted? The early Church had plenty of eyewitnesses still around who would have noticed and objected.

By your standard, historians who write books about the Gulf War by interviewing participants can't be trusted.

[Seabee1973]

I find it ironic that these same people who don't believe in CHRIST,have an unmeasurable amount of faith in coach Gibbs as a coach and as a person and as a leader and even as the FACE of the Washington Redskins organization...

Even so,to where he is treated like a god around here to some degree for what he has done with this Franchise...

YET...Jesus Christ is just some fairy tale to these people...A folklore if you will...Something to where they need Tangible evidence to Jesus Christs existence other than the Bible...Faith just doesn't cut it to believe in Jesus Christ,but joe gibbs has the most loyal of fans and endless Faith among his Fans and even his Opponents...!

Yet Joe Gibbs is a Christian and strongly believe's in Jesus Christ as our Savior!And has even shown that with even buisness decisions such as the aquisition of Brunell and other players with the Character he wants on this team...

Some of you guys even make statements such as "In Gibbs we trust" as a Slogun which has been accepted...Probably by all of us, cause we love the Guy...

Yet you just can't bring yourself to believe in Jesus Christ...!!

I feel sorry for ya!

You know why that is? because they dont teach it in school

[70th Week]

I love reading goportisgo's posts...makes me thankful for my education.

For those of you who insist on taking the Bible literally, I am very curious as to what sect of Christianity you prescribe to?

Are you questioning my education?I GUARANTEE I have more education than you do and I dont even know you.and I am saying that out of love. Vinva,you can take the bible however you want but you (and everyone)is going to have to give an account for your thoughts and actions one day especially towards God's word.When it all boils down,whether its on your death bed or God forbid something tragic,you will begin to question what you really believe about God or Christ and I really hope it is not too late.Harden not your heart and open your mind about exactly what you beleive about eternity because you and I both know that this world is not all there is out there after your soul leaves your body.

[flyingtiger1013]

I certainly believe in Satan. He goes by the name “Karen” and was my first mother-in-law.

[Kurd Cudins]

that is the most horrible example against an oral tradition of record keeping. Just cause you and your classmates are unable to remember things, doesnt mean for all of time humans had equally bad memories. When people dont have devices to record information with, the rely on their memories. Theres a documentary out there about how the printing press destoryed mans memory, and it covers how humans used to retain loads of information before they became lazy and relied on writing stuff down. Trubadors could commit to memory over 10,000 word songs, so its not hard to accept that a group of historians could retain multiple detailed stories. Im not saying the old testament is true or not, but to compare it to a camp fire chain story is both arrogant and ignorant.

Actually, its a real world, practical example that has been tested often and proven correct often. This is what I am talking about when it comes to desperation. It's not like I am making up this phenomenon. I have seen it. Why do you assume that the only reason the message changed was because the memories of the student are bad. That is EXTREMELY narrow-minded. One person could have changed it because they thought it was funny. Another because they thought they would say WHATEVER they wanted to. That's how information, even in todays society, gets skewed. Just as there is a "liberal" media bias today, the words and stories of the bible have been written and skewed by the biases of the believers.:2cents:

[MisterPinstripe]

Actually, its a real world, practical example that has been tested often and proven correct often. This is what I am talking about when it comes to desperation. It's not like I am making up this phenomenon. I have seen it. Why do you assume that the only reason the message changed was because the memories of the student are bad. That is EXTREMELY narrow-minded. One person could have changed it because they thought it was funny. Another because they thought they would say WHATEVER they wanted to. That's how information, even in todays society, gets skewed. Just as there is a "liberal" media bias today, the words and stories of the bible have been written and skewed by the biases of the believers.:2cents:

Says the one that knows all. :doh: To say your example is correct is extreamly narrow minded. As one person pointed out already, our memories are not what they were hundreds of years ago. Back in those days people could remember multiple incredible long stories. Stories such as the Illiad for example. To say that our memories are the same as they were back then, and to compare your example... Well, its just arrogent and ignorant.

You desperate for whatever you can grasp at.

[70th Week]

I am sorry but you are wrong on some of these counts, see God created Adam in his own likeness, than created Eve from him and Adam named her woman. Everyone has to come from them. They had many children, and yes there was imbreeding (it was not considered a sin until later)

The word world has been properly translated many times to mean world, God flooded the World to rid it of evil people and start over with Noah and his wife and their kids (imbreeding was still not a sin yet)

Peter walked on water....

I think if you look closer at Gen.1 and 2 you will see that God making man and making Adam was two different things.Everyone came from them?they are only 6000 years old,man has been dated older than that.(long study)

"world"if you look in the ancient text described in Gen.does not mean the entire world.pick you up an original hebrew version of the bible and you will see.How could noah collect every animal around the world and put them on a boat in just a few days?

Peter walked on water through the help of Jesus until he took his eyes off of Him.