Do you believe in Satan ?

[MisterPinstripe]

Ah ... Pascal's Wager makes an appearance. :doh:

There are, and have been, thousands of different major religions and sects throughout history. What are the chances you picked the right one? For most people their religion is determined by their parents or where they were born.

Chances are you probably picked the wrong one. Are you feeling lucky?

If there is a judgement day, at least I can't be accused of worshipping a false god.

Nope, not a chance really at all. I may be off on some points, but nothing that is really that important to being saved as all you have to do to be saved is believe. I have studied many religions, and am sure this is the correct one. It is really rather complicated and in depth to go into, but basically after looking over all the religions there are way too many things that scream blatant contridiction. All you really have to do is look at the worldviews. And I have an overwhelming amount of evidence to look at. I hope you eventually see what I see.

[ashburnskinsfan]

Excellent testimony Goth! :applause: I see no one's touching that one! :laugh:

He says he was a violent 14-year old heroin alcoholic. But now he has everything woked out.

[G-Prime]

That's funny ... reading the Bible was what turned me away from Christianity.

You're missing the point of my post. Other religions, including those held by at least one poster on this board, do believe in dragons, elves, and other mythical creatures.

It's very ironic that you are insulted that I would compare belief in demons with belief in elves or dragons, when you are similarly dismissing the beliefs of other religions. That's why I made the comparison in the first place. :doh:

It's funny, I don't think I read any faithful being openly insulting to those who are not faithful. It's some of you people who don't believe who are being over aggressive against those that do. It's cool to me if you don't believe, it's your soul not mine but don't attack someone who happens to believe that's pointless.

[MonkeySkin]

Like I said, if some of you were born in Iraq or something...ya'll would be blowing all kinds of crap up as we speak.

I believe in having a personal relationship with God. Not having a relationship with God through a book that has had man's filthy hands all over it. If you don't have enough faith to have a personal relationship with God, and need a book to have a relationship with him, then that's the way you are. Everyone is different.

But just remember that it's had man's hands all over it, and make sure you're not putting your faith in things that were man created.

[Seabee1973]

So let me get this straight, you envy the resolve and dedication to religion of the suicide bombers. :doh: To you, that is a sign of true religious devotion. To me, it's a sign of brainwashing, dellusion, insanity.

The Bible has been proven false a thousand times on a thousand different subjects. When a source is proven wrong X amount of times, they lose their "source" status. Copernicus, among others, destroyed the Bible's credibility long ago, that is why the Church tortured him.

The bible has never been proven false

[vinva]

I believe in having a personal relationship with God. Not having a relationship with God through a book that has had man's filthy hands all over it. If you don't have enough faith to have a personal relationship with God, and need a book to have a relationship with him, then that's the way you are. Everyone is different.

But just remember that it's had man's hands all over it, and make sure you're not putting your faith in things that were man created.

Well said.

[Goaldeje]

Like I said, if some of you were born in Iraq or something...ya'll would be blowing all kinds of crap up as we speak.

I believe in having a personal relationship with God. Not having a relationship with God through a book that has had man's filthy hands all over it. If you don't have enough faith to have a personal relationship with God, and need a book to have a relationship with him, then that's the way you are. Everyone is different.

But just remember that it's had man's hands all over it, and make sure you're not putting your faith in things that were man created.

I think the book is probably used more as a guide for myself than a portal if you will. Left to my own devices, I might turn out, well, liberal. *shudder*

[ashburnskinsfan]

It's funny, I don't think I read any faithful being openly insulting to those who are not faithful. It's some of you people who don't believe who are being over aggressive against those that do. It's cool to me if you don't believe, it's your soul not mine but don't attack someone who happens to believe that's pointless.

During my adult life I've come across many Chrisitians who told me, and my kids too, that I would be tortured in hell for eternity because I didn't believe in their god.

If that isn't aggressive behavior, what the **** is? All I'm saying is that your belief isn't true, in the same way as there isn't a Santa Claus.

I compared belief in demons and satan with belief in elves and dragons. I think it is the same thing. You apparently found that insulting. You could only take such a view if you think that belief in elves and dragons to be BS. As such you are aggressive towards other religions in the same way you are aggressive toward those who don't believe in any religion.

[Mr. Nostril]

I believe in having a personal relationship with God. Not having a relationship with God through a book that has had man's filthy hands all over it. If you don't have enough faith to have a personal relationship with God, and need a book to have a relationship with him, then that's the way you are. Everyone is different.

Here's where I agree with you: Many Christians come dangerously close to worshiping the Bible rather than worshiping God. I also agree that humans have certainly tainted the Bible.

Here's where I disagree: The Bible is still a very important book in the Christian faith.

As is true with everything, there's a balance. I feel that this post tends to lean too much towards a view that says the Bible is worthless. Although, I could be misinterpreting.

[MonkeySkin]

During my adult life I've come across many Chrisitians who told me, and my kids too, that I would be tortured in hell for eternity because I didn't believe in their god.

Well, if it makes any difference, I believe in God and Jesus, and I think God loves you.

[gchwood]

Wrong, but thanks for the judgement anyway. :laugh:

There is some great poetry and wisdom in the Bible, but many ancient cultures and religions also have great literature too.

From reading the Bible, it's numerous contradictions and errors were apparent to me, as well as numerous passages with quite repugnant content. A number of its core messages are either deeply harmful to society, or are interpreted that way by misguided Christians.

To me, it is obvious that the Bible is not divinely inspired, it does not have divinely revealed truth. I don't spend my Sundays at church. Working with youth, many of whom are at risk, seems a better way to use my time.

When I see the language and actions of many devout Christians, I often think that if there is a divine being with a heaven and hell, it's pretty sure we'll be going to different places. I won't speculate, who will end up where though.

I just don't see these contradictions and errors, I don't see anything that is "deeply harmful" to society.

I need you to expand your thought here

Besided there are plenty of opportunity to help at risk children with a church, turst me I know

[G-Prime]

He says he was a violent 14-year old heroin alcoholic. But now he has everything woked out.

Not saying my life is perfect far from it. I still worry about bills and my son and if my wife is happy. I'm pissed about gas prices. But I see no sense bugging God because of money or stuff like that. I had a real problem that was bigger then I could handle myself and he helped out. I told Jesus I submit myself to him and If this was the life he wanted for me then so be it I'll live it, but if I was living outside of his plan to please help.

[Seabee1973]

That's cute the way you are trying to use scientific method as an argument for your Religion. The Bible does not hold up under this same level of scientific scrutiny and that is why the Bible is not taught in science or history classes.

BTW, evolution "envolves" all sorts of factual history-like the 40 different types of human-like skulls that go from ape to man over a period of 5 million years. Then again you don't believe in carbon dating.

That has been disproven many times not only by christian scientists but also some secular ones evolution is anything but factual when you look at its past a human skelatin with ats head decapitated about a foot away 20 feet away and a monkey head and buried 20 feet below the human skelatin and some how the monkeys head belonged on the human head

[MonkeySkin]

Here's where I agree with you: Many Christians come dangerously close to worshiping the Bible rather than worshiping God. I also agree that humans have certainly tainted the Bible.

Here's where I disagree: The Bible is still a very important book in the Christian faith.

As is true with everything, there's a balance. I feel that this post tends to lean too much towards a view that says the Bible is worthless. Although, I could be misinterpreting.

I agree with everything you said.

I do believe that the New Testament is very important, because it show's Jesus' teachings...and the guy was definitely here, and he changed the world.

Adam and Eve...stuff like that... I don't know...

[gchwood]

The bible has never been proven false

I agree I am waiting for that "idea" to come to some actual fruition and show us how it has been "proven" false.

[techboy]

As a side note to the Christians: what exactly are you hoping to accomplish?

That's a very good question. It's doubly pointed for me because I made a very public pronouncement a while back that I didn't have the time to do this on a second message board (here), and so would not be engaging in debates. My reasoning was that there are many Christians here who can take up the struggle. I haven't really been able to help myself, though.

My goal in any such discussion is simple. Many people (even in this thread) assert that it is irrational to be a Christian, or that it requires blind faith in defiance of logic, reason, and evidence. This is simply not true, and my general goal is to demonstrate that.

The historicity and reliability of the Bible and the events therein, and particularly the Ressurection, are cornerstones of the Christian faith. Paul puts it this way in 1 Corinthians 15:12-19

12But if it is preached that Christ has been raised from the dead, how can some of you say that there is no resurrection of the dead? 13If there is no resurrection of the dead, then not even Christ has been raised. 14And if Christ has not been raised, our preaching is useless and so is your faith. 15More than that, we are then found to be false witnesses about God, for we have testified about God that he raised Christ from the dead. But he did not raise him if in fact the dead are not raised. 16For if the dead are not raised, then Christ has not been raised either. 17And if Christ has not been raised, your faith is futile; you are still in your sins. 18Then those also who have fallen asleep in Christ are lost. 19If only for this life we have hope in Christ, we are to be pitied more than all men.

Christianity is an historical faith, underpinned by an historical event, documented by the Bible. If the events described therein did not happen, or if the Bible turns out to be untrustworthy, then the entire Christian faith is meaningless.

Fortunately, the Bible can be supported with things such as archeology, fulfilled prophecy, textual reliablity, internal and external writings, and such, as can the Ressurection.

Since this is true, the Christian faith is not a blind faith, but rather a faith when reason.

In any case, I take 1 Peter 3:15 very seriously, and I try to always stand ready to give a REASON for the hope that lies within me. Christianity is not a blind faith, it is a reasonable one, and I endeavor when I can to make that point to others.

Do I think that this will bring someone to salvation? No. Only the Holy Spirit can do that. As it turns out, my gifts don't lie with witnessing anyway. My wife is much better at sharing her faith, and God has used her several times to bring others to Him.

What I DO hope to accomplish is twofold.

1) Reassure Christians that their faith has a foundation. There is reason to believe what they believe.

2) Help to remove any intellectual barriers non-Christians might have to accepting Jesus. It's pretty hard to have faith in a person when you have doubts He even existed in the first place.

And so, I continually get dragged into these things, citing articles like Are the Biblical Documents Reliable, Bible Contradictions: A Christian Response, and Contemporary Scholarship and the Historical Evidence for the Resurrection of Jesus Christ. It's all about reminding people that not only is it possible to be a Christian without throwing one's brain out the window, there's actually some pretty strong evidence FOR believing the Bible.

[vinva]

That has been disproven many times not only by christian scientists but also some secular ones evolution is anything but factual when you look at its past a human skelatin with ats head decapitated about a foot away 20 feet away and a monkey head and buried 20 feet below the human skelatin and some how the monkeys head belonged on the human head

Is that english?

[Johnny Punani2]

Is that english?

Do you have anything constructive to say?

[vinva]

The historicity and reliability of the Bible and the events therein, and particularly the Ressurection, are cornerstones of the Christian faith.

When referring to the New Testament, I agree.

Do you believe that the Old Testament has as much validity?

[G-Prime]

Ah ... but your malevolent dictator god does not exist.

More useless attacking from the non believers.. pathetic.

[Seabee1973]

I think if you look closer at Gen.1 and 2 you will see that God making man and making Adam was two different things.Everyone came from them?they are only 6000 years old,man has been dated older than that.(long study)

"world"if you look in the ancient text described in Gen.does not mean the entire world.pick you up an original hebrew version of the bible and you will see.How could noah collect every animal around the world and put them on a boat in just a few days?

Peter walked on water through the help of Jesus until he took his eyes off of Him.

actually he is correct Adam was the first man to walk the earth. If most secular scientist are to be believed then we woul dstill be evolving from apes wouldnt we?

[70th Week]

:laugh: you better watch out techboy,youll have 100 posts before you know it :laugh:

[vinva]

Do you have anything constructive to say?

Read the rest of my posts in this thread...I think at least some have been constructive. But thanks for the input champ!!:thumbsup:

[G-Prime]

During my adult life I've come across many Chrisitians who told me, and my kids too, that I would be tortured in hell for eternity because I didn't believe in their god.

If that isn't aggressive behavior, what the **** is? All I'm saying is that your belief isn't true, in the same way as there isn't a Santa Claus.

I compared belief in demons and satan with belief in elves and dragons. I think it is the same thing. You apparently found that insulting. You could only take such a view if you think that belief in elves and dragons to be BS. As such you are aggressive towards other religions in the same way you are aggressive toward those who don't believe in any religion.

Be mature enough to realize that I and many other's aren't those same christians who told you those things. Your ignorance is apparent. Someone upset you, so you take it out on someone completely different just because they share the same faith.. Your friggen brilliant dude.

[BlueTalon]

Jesus believed in Satan, and he knew a bit more about the subject matter than most of us.

However, if you were Satan, and a whole bunch of backward thugs were morphing and twisting an entire belief system into an excuse for mass murder, would you get in the way of that at all? Wouldn't you just sit back and watch the show?