Star Wars: The Last Jedi Discussion Thread [SPOILERS ALLOWED!]

[Momma There Goes That Man]

6 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

Kylo...I just don't know.  Is he really supposed to be THE villain of episode 9?

 

I'm happy with this. He has earned it thru the first two movies and it mixes it up from the OT with having a big bad and an apprentice. Let's see how the apprentice does as the master. I think setting up an inevitable showdown with Rey and Kylo and all other main characters pushed aside was a great idea. 

[Fergasun]

I don't see him as a coward, but devastated by the rise of darkness again... hopeless because Ben wasn't supposed to turn into Vader part 2.  Rey is a new hope, but he can't see it because he thought he was the new hope.  

 

I think I loved all the force user plots in this movie, but hated what was done to the Rebels. Basically the entire rebellion ended up on the Millennium Falcon, their fleet was destroyed and no one came to their aid.  7 and 8 have given us no intergalactic politics, even though both first order and resistance exist apparently in a space vacuum. Sure OT didn't delve deeply, but we had Hutts\Tatooine, a princess from Alderaan, and cloud city providing some glimpse.  

 

Maybe the First Order will be in disarray because of no Snoke -- unlike Palpatine it's unclear how they rule.  

 

They need a well written animated series to fill in the gaps.... because the political situation makes no sense.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

47 minutes ago, codeorama said:

If Anakin or Obi Wan faced the same situation, they would have prevailed. 

Luke dying alone and as a coward destroys everything he was. Making him almost murder Ben took away from who he was. 

 

Were Obi Wan and Yoda not cowards as well? Both went into hiding in their old age. Obi Wan gave his life to allow the future to escape as did Luke. What is the difference? Vader in his older age took a little force lighting and died 5 minutes later..

[codeorama]

4 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

Were Obi Wan and Yoda not cowards as well? Both went into hiding in their old age. Obi Wan gave his life to allow the future to escape as did Luke. What is the difference? Vader in his older age took a little force lighting and died 5 minutes later..

 

Yoda went into exile in order to wait for Luke and or Leia to grow up. ObiWan guarded Luke. 

Once it was time, Obi Wan was in it. He faced Vader. He didn’t refuse to. Yoda trained Luke. 

The difference is that Rey is already powerful (IMO she shouldn’t be, but is). His hesitation in training her is fine but the big difference is that Luke’s sister is fighting for her live while he’s sad that he failed training Ben. There’s still a war going on. His family is in peril but he hides. That’s a coward. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I fail to see the difference in him actually showing up vs doing what he did. Either way, he was giving his life to save his sister and the rebellion and in this way, he was not defeated and his legend continues to grow.

 

If he shows up he is dead in two seconds. And Obi Wan giving up and letting Vader beat him so he could deuces to to everyone wasn't exactly heroic. 

[codeorama]

7 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

I fail to see the difference in him actually showing up vs doing what he did. Either way, he was giving his life to save his sister and the rebellion and in this way, he was not defeated and his legend continues to grow.

 

If he shows up he is dead in two seconds. And Obi Wan giving up and letting Vader beat him so he could deuces to to everyone wasn't exactly heroic. 

 

If he showed up, he should not be dead in in 2 seconds. He should have easily been able to use the force to leap towards the walkers, get in close and defeat them. Many other similar accounts in Star Wars canon.  For example; Luke brings a Star destroyer out of the sky in a new novel that is confirmed canon. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

6 minutes ago, codeorama said:

 

If he showed up, he should not be dead in in 2 seconds. He should have easily been able to use the force to leap towards the walkers, get in close and defeat them. Many other similar accounts in Star Wars canon.  For example; Luke brings a Star destroyer out of the sky in a new novel that is confirmed canon. 

 

Well I don't know anything about the books I can only go by what is presented in the movies on screen. Him bringing a Destroyer out of the sky seems a bit ridiculous to me as does 50 year old Luke taking on an army of AT-ATs.

 

People criticized Yoda for his flipping and fighting but everybody would have been ok with Luke eric bana hulk leaping around knocking out walkers? 

 

Sure it would have been great to see a powerful Jedi lord Luke but that isn't the story they decided to tell. i don't think it cheapens his character. It never really made sense for me to think Luke became some all-powerful force master anyway given his extremely limited training and understanding of anything Jedi related. 

[NoCalMike]

I also agree that this movie tried to be ESB/ROJ combined, or at least elements of both, which is really going to setup Episode IX to be structured differently from ROTJ.   One of the reasons I have an issue with the way Snoke went out is because Kylo Ren as an apprentice was flawed from the beginning.  He showed too many signs of darkness under Luke, but still showed too much conflict and hesitation as an apprentice to Snoke as well. It's hard for me to believe Snoke couldn't have detected this and better prepared himself in the case of Kylo Ren reverting into Ben Solo.  When this scenario played out in ROTJ it made more sense why The Emperor would have been caught off guard. Vader was much further along in his darkside journey, he was much more powerful and wise in the ways of the force, and most of all he never even twinged until the very last second when Luke was on the verge of death. Contrast that with Ren who seems to be conflicted and clouded in every other scene.

 

I also believe Luke & Snoke came to the same conclusion about the force that no matter how awesome of a jedi or sith they train and bring up, an equally strong counterpart will be out there somewhere due to the "laws of the force" itself.  Luke's answer was to abandon training Jedi's and the force all together, where as Snoke's answer was to just kill anyone who was too pure in the heart to turn.

 

I suppose Luke's ultimate legacy ended up being breaking the shackles off the previous constraints of "the way of the Jedi" no longer do you need to go to Jedi Academy and be trained by a Jedi Master.  Moving forward it will be more about recognizing the force in yourself, regardless of who you are.  Again, a lot of the ending of this film felt like the end of a saga, not the middle piece.

 

I think the more time I have to digest it, the more I will soften on aspects I was initially questioning so hard.  Snoke's death I am not so much against him being killed so much as to never really knowing anything about him beyond "prototypical evil sith lord who wants to rule the galaxy"    If this was the first Star Wars trilogy in existence, I don't think it would be such a big deal that we don't know anything about him, but because so many of the other "masters" in the trilogy are from the previous trilogy it feels like we have enough implied information on them for example Kylo Ren/Ben Solo....even without the details of his turning, we pretty much know how that routine goes.  To me it is just too big of a gap and/or mystery for a character the magnitude of Snoke to be in his position when we know absolutely nothing of where he fits into the grand scheme of things from the time Vader & The Emperor to his own death.

[Fergasun]

@NoCalMike

We knew very little of Palpatine until filled in very nicely by the prequels. Evil force user leader of the bad guys.  

 

Ultimately, if you are a Sith, "the force finds a way" to destroy you, especially if you are about to destroy the light. 

[codeorama]

4 minutes ago, Fergasun said:

@NoCalMike

We knew very little of Palpatine until filled in very nicely by the prequels. Evil force user leader of the bad guys.  

 

Ultimately, if you are a Sith, "the force finds a way" to destroy you, especially if you are about to destroy the light. 

 

Yeah, I didn’t have a problem with Snoke being mysterious. They missed an opportunity though. They could have made him Darth Plaguise.. would have been awesome. Ultimately he served the same purpose as Dooku. At least Dooku had an interesting back story with the Lost 20 and all. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

I think both the Sith and Jedi are done. There is no single black/white light/dark anymore. That was part of the point of this. Rey embraced the dark as well while Kylo was conflicted with the light. Neither truly found their powers until accepted by the other

[NoCalMike]

Another thing I sort of had an issue with is how quickly Snoke gave up on the prospect of turning Ren. In the past it seemed like everyone who turned had to be slowly groomed, seeds planted that had to be nurtured over time. I suppose the difference here is that Snoke never even intended to turn Ren and wanted her soley as Kylo Ren's final piece of the training to put him past the point of no return, however he already killed his own father for crying out loud, so part of me thinks Kylo and Ren actually have a more direct connection that is still being kept from her other then the fact that she just happens to be a force with the force. 

 

I could possibly being looking at it the wrong way and supposed to be reading into the fact that she is just a random girl with immense power, that she embodies the 100% innocent light side of the force.  No baggage, no pain of being in the lineage of famous rebel fighters.  Perhaps Snoke quickly realized there was no darkness in her to exploit, so she had to be destroyed immediately? 

[codeorama]

1 minute ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

I think both the Sith and Jedi are done. There is no single black/white light/dark anymore. That was part of the point of this. Rey embraced the dark as well while Kylo was conflicted with the light. Neither truly found their powers until accepted by the other

 

Totally disagree. Rey has the Jedi books. She is the only Jedi now. She will learn. 

2 minutes ago, NoCalMike said:

Another thing I sort of had an issue with is how quickly Snoke gave up on the prospect of turning Ren. In the past it seemed like everyone who turned had to be slowly groomed, seeds planted that had to be nurtured over time. I suppose the difference here is that Snoke never even intended to turn Ren and wanted her soley as Kylo Ren's final piece of the training to put him past the point of no return, however he already killed his own father for crying out loud, so part of me thinks Kylo and Ren actually have a more direct connection that is still being kept from her other then the fact that she just happens to be a force with the force. 

 

I could possibly being looking at it the wrong way and supposed to be reading into the fact that she is just a random girl with immense power, that she embodies the 10% innocent light side of the force.  No baggage, no pain of being in the lineage of famous rebel fighters.  Perhaps Snoke quickly realized there was no darkness in her to exploit, so she had to be destroyed immediately? 

 Maybe. Good observations. However. I’m not convinced Rey is no one special. 

[Momma There Goes That Man]

18 minutes ago, codeorama said:

Totally disagree. Rey has the Jedi books. She is the only Jedi now. She will learn.

 

She can learn but i dont think it will be such a clear cut light side/Jedi thing

 

Then again, this is disney so i'm probably wrong.

[codeorama]

6 minutes ago, Momma There Goes That Man said:

 

She can learn but i dont think it will be such a clear cut light side/Jedi thing

 

Then again, this is disney so i'm probably wrong.

I’d reverse that. It’s disney so you’re  probably right. 

 

Everything lucas created centered around the light and the dark. How can you have conflict without distinct sides. Would suck to have a movie with no conflict. 

[NoCalMike]

20 minutes ago, codeorama said:

 

 

 Maybe. Good observations. However. I’m not convinced Rey is no one special. 

 

That is sort of where I am at too.  I am conflicted about the Rey character, not her personally, but more in the context of the overall message of this trilogy.  It would seem the trilogy is attempting to create a new legacy a "new school" line of thinking if you will.  A world without traditional "jedi" & "sith" and instead just random people with varying degrees of force abilities depending on different factors. It seems on the surface, as of what we know *right now* Rey is the catalyst for this, if indeed her parents are no one, just some scumbags who dropped her off on a random planet.

 

However that doesn't seem to mesh with all her visions and excelled powers in the absence of any real training.  I keep going back to Luke questioning her, "why are YOU here?" He wasn't questioning the fact that the rebel alliance sent someone to get him, but he kept wanting to know why her specifically.  Seems like too much a deal has been made of her ways with the force and abilities to merely write it off as "you're no one special, anyone can do that if they try hard enough"

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 minute ago, codeorama said:

I’d reverse that. It’s disney so you’re  probably right. 

 

Everything lucas created centered around the light and the dark. How can you have conflict without distinct sides. Would suck to have a movie with no conflict. 

 

That doesn't mean there won't be conflict. Just that the force users aren't light/dark necessarily but grey. They are complex characters like the throne room scene in this movie showed. It could have gone either way and I didn't really know what to expect between the two stars. 

[Mournblade]

After mulling over the movie in my mind, I've come to the conclusion that I liked it, but I was expecting more. Way more. And

I will need to see the movie again to arrive at a really decisive verdict.

[Momma There Goes That Man]

1 minute ago, NoCalMike said:

I keep going back to Luke questioning her, "why are YOU here?" He wasn't questioning the fact that the rebel alliance sent someone to get him, but he kept wanting to know why her specifically.  Seems like too much a deal has been made of her ways with the force and abilities to merely write it off as "you're no one special, anyone can do that if they try hard enough"

 

She answered that though. Something inside her has always been there. And now it's awake. And she's afraid. She needs help to learn how to handle it. That's why she specifically was there. 

 

I have no problem with her being nobody special. It's too contrived to have her be somebody known. I don't think anybody can do that if they try hard enough. Just like Anakin or Obi Wan, some people just have strong natural force ability. Maybe her parents had it too and they never realized or got sucked into any conflict where it had a chance to materialize. She likely would never have known or become involved in any force use had Finn and BB8 not become involved in her life

6 minutes ago, Mournblade said:

After mulling over the movie in my mind, I've come to the conclusion that I liked it, but I was expecting more. Way more. And

I will need to see the movie again to arrive at a really decisive verdict.

 

I like it a lot more after sleeping on it and thinking about it all night and morning. My two biggest complaints were the Leia scene and the lack of resolve to any mystery that was set up. 

 

There are other nitpicks like too much comedy in parts and the Finn subplot being useless but overall it was a very solid advancement of the story and I love everything about the Kylo/Rey dynamic and how it sets them up for the finale. 

 

I think people had 30 years of EU and expectations for their OT characters and wanted this trilogy to focus on them more. I'm ok with it not doing that because I love the new characters so much. 

[TK]

http://comicbook.com/starwars/2017/12/15/star-wars-last-jedi-rotten-tomatoes-audience-score-low/

[Yohan]

I was disappointed no one got their hand chopped off.

 

I think Rey may in fact be a no one, and I say this because of the slave kid at the end using the force to grab the broom and sort of holding it like a lightsaber, looking up into space. I don't think there is going to be the all powerful "one" to save them all, but it will be the lowly people to rise up and hold the real power.

 

735 days until IX.

[TK]

[Mooka]

Thought it was like episode VII. Was good, not great.

 

Maybe its all movies these days, but its more noticeable in Star Wars because its such a known canon:

 

Feels like they produce these things in a reverse process by focus group rather then have an actual story.

 

Feels like we already know who Rey is, or who Snoke was supposed to be, or why this or that, but it was edited/cut/reshot a thousand times and what's left is this convoluted mess that may or may not be explained in the next movie. 

[NoCalMike]

I like the arc that the force itself is not something confined for just "jedi" * "sith"  it makes sense that if the force is out there holding the universe together, flowing through everything, that in turn everyone would have access to use it in varying degrees.

 

I still think there has been too much setup though to suggest Ren isn't just "random girl that's strong with the force"  when she grabbed Luke's light saber and got the visions seemed to be laying the groundwork that she was connected more directly somehow.  

[bearrock]

I liked the movie a lot, much more so then Force Awakens.  I do think the Snoke storyline and Rey origins are not as it seems in EP VIII and will be explored further in EP IX.  I rather liked the evolution of Luke into a more conflicted character.  I do think EP VIII grade will depend on how it all ends in EP IX.