No Excuses Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 I wanted to make a separate thread from the video gaming thread because I wanted to see what people here think about micro-transactions in games. A good primer on what micro-transactions are: https://www.intelligenteconomist.com/economics-of-microtransactions/ I don't see how this isn't akin to gambling and we really need to regulate what developers can get away with. They are hooking children and creating addicts. Most of all, they are absolutely destroying the gaming industry for the consumer. We have two major titles this year in Star Wars Battlefront II and Destiny 2 that turned out to be total disasters because of developer greed. Rockstar is another company guilty of this. There has been recent talk about the government getting involved and investigating this issue as it's increasingly apparent that the gaming companies are creating gambling addicts. So far China has passed some regulations regarding micro-transactions. And some EU governments like UK and Belgium are also thinking about regulating them under gambling laws. Australia is another country. So micro-transcations: gambling or not gambling? regulations or no regulations? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted December 8, 2017 Author Share Posted December 8, 2017 Whoops. Looks like the poll was set up in a that didn't let people comment. comments should be working now Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 I don’t think the government should step in. Ideally, people wouldn’t support games that include micro transactions. Let consumers speak with their wallets. Battlefront 2 is one of the most universally panned games out there, I’d hope that social media continues to call out these game makers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dont Taze Me Bro Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 It’s not gambling. You spend money for loot boxes knowing the low odds and getting random loot. And while micro transactions are ****ty, nobody is making anyone buy them. Battlefront 2 is probably the worst case of pay to play to date. It sucks, but unfortunately us gamers have to deal with it. I really dont don’t want the government interfering though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 The less gov't, the better. Stick to something else, not video games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 It's gambling. And it targets kids. It should be regulated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 37 minutes ago, Springfield said: I don’t think the government should step in. Ideally, people wouldn’t support games that include micro transactions. Let consumers speak with their wallets. Battlefront 2 is one of the most universally panned games out there, I’d hope that social media continues to call out these game makers. I don't think this is some necessarily new thing, either. Like when I noticed I could unlock Sean Taylor in the new Madden this year, I quickly saw all the **** I'd have to do for it and just decided it wasn't worth the hassle. I think I could have paid money to unlock him, too. Love ya, ST, but I don't need you that bad in Madden. This has been happening for years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. Sinister Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 It pisses me off, and no, they shouldn't be allowed to get away with this without some kind of regulation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 49 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: It's gambling. And it targets kids. It should be regulated. Hmm... Curious to hear your reasons for thinking that kids are targeted and what would make it gambling. Thanks. Is buying a car a gamble ? You see where I am going here right ? I think it ruins the fun of games... I hate that part of it. Price of the games would fix all of this. Same price for all of them. If anything games that come out every year should be cheaper IMO. I know they are the most popular games...but even something as simple as saying... pay $120 for this game and we will give you next season for only 30 bucks. The price of the systems has not gone rogue like phones these days. They are cheaper by comparison with inflation considerations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 I personally have no issue with micro transactions that are cosmetic. Pay for a fancy hat for your character and as far as I'm concerned it will just make you look like an idiot, but spending like an idiot isn't really a problem for others. Where I take issue is with pay-to-win, in all situations but most significantly in multiplayer situations. I refuse to play video games where I need to spend additional money to play the game or where other players gain advantage over me with purchases of in game items. It's either about the gameplay and the ability of the players, or it's a bull**** game. I don't think my personal preferences should be legally forced on game developers though and I don't really see any of that as gambling. If we're talking regulation though I do think some is needed. Video games should have to announce the extent of current and planned in game transactions prior to selling preorders or the game itself. Any micro transactions added to the game that effect a players ability to play the game or competitive balance, that also exceeds what they initially disclosed, should result in purchasers becoming eligible for a full refund of the purchase price. I'm fine with video games trying to squeeze out more money. It's a crazy industry where one bad title can bankrupt studios. I just think they should be upfront with the details of how they plan to go about it, and not be allowed to surprise anyone with it or change the rules after people have paid their money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 2 minutes ago, Destino said: Where I take issue is with pay-to-win Exactly. I knew that I messed up deleting half of my post. That part was there just before I wrote ruining the fun. I know many of you have never played pinball games. Most folks don't even know the secret about those games... They raise the back to make it more difficult. The feet of the game have threaded feet that raise the back to make some shots harder to hit. Same thing happens at fairs and amusement parks with their games. If you have good reflexes and happen to see a pinball game...lower the back of the game. You might hit the high score just by trying. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 37 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said: Hmm... Curious to hear your reasons for thinking that kids are targeted and what would make it gambling. Thanks. Is buying a car a gamble ? You see where I am going here right ? The particular case of microtransactions that brought this debate up came from Star Wars: Battlefront II. The gambling aspect is that you are buying "loot boxes" that come with random things in it. To get what you want, you have to keep buying loot boxes until you randomly come up with one that has what you want. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kosher Ham Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 1 minute ago, PokerPacker said: The particular case of microtransactions that brought this debate up came from Star Wars: Battlefront II. The gambling aspect is that you are buying "loot boxes" that come with random things in it. To get what you want, you have to keep buying loot boxes until you randomly come up with one that has what you want. Thanks Steve. Geez. It's not gambling it is a cheat code. You will win either way...perhaps not what you need...or want... but if you want to try to cheat, go for it, no promises. That is an option, not really gambling. I need money coming back to me for it to be a gamble, or NOTHING at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 6 minutes ago, Kosher Ham said: Thanks Steve. Geez. It's not gambling it is a cheat code. You will win either way...perhaps not what you need...or want... but if you want to try to cheat, go for it, no promises. That is an option, not really gambling. I need money coming back to me for it to be a gamble, or NOTHING at all. Is it not gambling if you had a lottery that had a chance of either winning a house or a tootsie roll? Either way, you get a prize, and there's no money coming back. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily saying it should be treated the same as other forms of gambling. It can be a slippery slope that catches things like Trading Cards or Grab-Bags. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PokerPacker Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 44 minutes ago, Destino said: I'm fine with video games trying to squeeze out more money. It's a crazy industry where one bad title can bankrupt studios. I just think they should be upfront with the details of how they plan to go about it, and not be allowed to surprise anyone with it or change the rules after people have paid their money. One bad title bankrupts studios that are irresponsible with their money by putting all their eggs in one basket. You can go bankrupt real fast in the stock market if you invest your life savings into a single stock. Solution? Diversify your portfolio. Don't put all of your money into a single game hoping to quintuple your money in a single development cycle. The fact that all those fairly big studios went under in such a short period of time shows what happens when looks at market trends and says "If I make a game just like theirs, I'll be rich! Everything on black and let it ride until it busts!" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ClaytoAli Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 3 hours ago, PokerPacker said: Is it not gambling if you had a lottery that had a chance of either winning a house or a tootsie roll? Either way, you get a prize, and there's no money coming back. Don't get me wrong, I'm not necessarily saying it should be treated the same as other forms of gambling. It can be a slippery slope that catches things like Trading Cards or Grab-Bags. The first part of what you said is the reason Electronic Arts started the industry down this road. They were able to skirt the gambling law by giving out a tootsie roll at a minimum as long as the players knew it could happen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Going Commando Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 4 hours ago, PokerPacker said: Is it not gambling if you had a lottery that had a chance of either winning a house or a tootsie roll? Either way, you get a prize, and there's no money coming back. It's a slot machine for kids. You buy a lootbox or fortune card pack or whatever mechanism they use, pull the lever, and see what comes out. Combine that with the skinner box mechanism games use to keep people playing and you have something that's completely addictive and gets kids dumping money into it. Adults too for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 It is gambling IMO. I don't like it. One of the reasons I've turned sour on Destiny 2 is because there is so much focus on the "Bright Engrams" which you can earn in game, but also are for sale. I completely understand that games cost more to make and companies are trying to make money. But, for me, the result is I'm definitely buying fewer games and will be much more careful. I did not buy SW Battlefront II because of the pay to win loot boxes and I realize they have made changes, but I still won't buy. I'm not opposed to being able to purchase in game cosmetic stuff, but its just way to prevalent. I wish it would go away. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 My issue is that they build these games incomplete. What currently happens would be comparable to charging you to use the Contra code. There are no more Easter eggs, just “**** you, pay me”. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
“Misdirection” Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 If the money needs to come from somewhere I’d rather they just give me the full game and they just raise the starting price of it. I don’t buy every game out there but the ones I do I want the full experience. Not sure the difference needed to make up for the pay to win residuals, but take $60 and go to $70 or something. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 I don't even mind paying for DLC after a certain point. Destiny did it well IMO, but Destiny 2 is trash in the way they are doing it. I already have the DLC, but they literally locked out people who don't, from content that they had a week ago. I've actually gone back to the Division since they have fixed it. I loved the game when it came out and quit when it broke with all the cheating and glitches. The recent 1.8 update was free and its wonderful. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
No Excuses Posted December 8, 2017 Author Share Posted December 8, 2017 31 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said: It's a slot machine for kids. You buy a lootbox or fortune card pack or whatever mechanism they use, pull the lever, and see what comes out. Combine that with the skinner box mechanism games use to keep people playing and you have something that's completely addictive and gets kids dumping money into it. Adults too for that matter. This is basically what it is. But we know their tactics are working on adults too. This isn’t some simple lootbox stuff either. Companies are using techniques to psychologically bait people. Activision filed a patent on a multiplayer matchmaking system that is almost entirely based on driving microtransactions. Quote Patent #9789406, for a "System and method for driving microtransactions in multiplayer video games," describes a number of matchmaking algorithms that a game could use to encourage players to purchase additional in-game items. "For instance, the system may match a more expert/marquee player with a junior player to encourage the junior player to make game-related purchases of items possessed/used by the marquee player," the patent reads. "A junior player may wish to emulate the marquee player by obtaining weapons or other items used by the marquee player." https://www.google.com/amp/s/arstechnica.com/gaming/2017/10/activisions-patented-method-to-drive-microtransactions-with-matchmaking/%3famp=1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Spaceman Spiff Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 If buying a "loot box" is gambling... then I'm gambling buying a 3 pack of discounted underwear and not knowing what colors I'm getting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said: It's a slot machine for kids. You buy a lootbox or fortune card pack or whatever mechanism they use, pull the lever, and see what comes out. Combine that with the skinner box mechanism games use to keep people playing and you have something that's completely addictive and gets kids dumping money into it. Adults too for that matter. Ok now I feel stupid for not seeing the gambling angle last night when I replied. I agree that can easily be argued to be gambling. They're paying real money for a chance to win something they value. It's very much like any other game of chance. That's not necessarily bad though. My kid likes to go to a Chuck E Cheese and funnel my money into games hoping she gets enough tickets for a prize. If we encounter carnival games it's the same thing again, only without the tickets. Point is kids being asked to pay money for a chance at prizes isn't necessarily unacceptable. It does create room for government regulations though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Springfield Posted December 8, 2017 Share Posted December 8, 2017 17 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said: If buying a "loot box" is gambling... then I'm gambling buying a 3 pack of discounted underwear and not knowing what colors I'm getting. I agree with this. There is no monetary gain to be had for the person buying a loot box or whatever trendy name that EA gave it. It DOES use the traditional methods for triggering a gambling addictive personality, but I wouldn’t describe it as gambling, per se. Ultimately, the player is just wasting their money, gaining nothing in return. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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