Micro-transactions in Video Gaming: Gambling?

[PleaseBlitz]

4 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Just curious, has Battlefront II bombed because of this?  Or is it just ****ty gameplay?  It looks cool and I thought about checking it out.

 

Bombed.

 

https://www.forbes.com/sites/insertcoin/2017/12/08/npd-shows-dismal-battlefront-2-sales-at-20-of-call-of-duty-wwii-sales/#4ec2c6af2b38

 

 

[Gamebreaker]

5 minutes ago, Spaceman Spiff said:

Just curious, has Battlefront II bombed because of this?  Or is it just ****ty gameplay?  It looks cool and I thought about checking it out.

 

It bombed because of the microtransactions. The game is actually pretty good, from what reviews say. 

[Metalhead]

EA also owns Star Wars The Old Republic. The game utillizes blatant gambling tactics in it's loot crate system. It is advertised that you have a seemingly great chance to win high-level items, but the odds are atrocious to abysmal. No where is it stated what the percentages are. Plus these are online markets linked to the credit card on file for subscriptions, thus making it dangerous for younger children and adults that play the game. It's legalized underage gambling, period.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

46 minutes ago, bearrock said:

 

I think it's an interesting discussion and exercise in statutory interpretation and certainly appreciate your well learned input PB.  But I respectfully view it still as gambling.  If I operate a casino where you get either an Ipad, a dried cranberry, or a plastic bag, for a dollar slot pull, is that not gambling?  Because everyone gets at least a dried cranberry or a plastic bag?  What if a Casino said you win at least a penny from every game in the house.  Is that no longer gambling?  You may not have won your desired jackpot, but you got something.

 

Read it this way.  What is prohibited is receiving anything of value in exchange for a chance to win a prize dependent on uncertain outcome.  Suppose a loot box has chance of granting one of prize A, B, or C.  I want prize A.  My chance of winning prize A is still dependent on the uncertain outcome of a random number generator.  They can't say that since you are guaranteed to win a prize that your chance of winning prize A is not dependent upon uncertainty.  It most certainly is.

 

The difference is in the game they paid for, they can get those items by grinding out and playing the game.  It just takes a **** load of time.  But they can still get the same items without paying any more money.  Just investing more time playing the game.  

 

 

Then play the game without paying any more money and get prize A.  

 

1 hour ago, No Excuses said:

 

You pay your $ and you get a lootbox. And the lootbox has a random chance of dispersing some combination of items from a large pool. 

 

You are basically paying for a virtual slot machine. 

 

But you can still get the same items, just by playing the game you paid for.  It just takes longer, but you don't have to pay any extra money.

[PleaseBlitz]

12 minutes ago, Gamebreaker said:

 

It bombed because of the microtransactions. The game is actually pretty good, from what reviews say. 

 

BEHOLD, the Invisible Hand.

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

18 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

And in how many states is it legal for an 8 year old to sit down at a slot machine with their dad's credit card?

 

Every other form of gambling we've come across eventually gets regulated in some way.  This kind should be too.

 

 

This sounds like a pretty good defense for casinos and drug dealers too.  "No need for regulation, if you don't like that our products prey upon people, then don't participate."

 

I never took you for an Ayn Rand type.  Or is this just something you're kicking around this morning because you took a bad initial position out of a lack of information on the subject and are digging in with it?

 

 

Well any responsible parent will use the system settings to block their child's sub account from making any type of transactions/purchases.   

 

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

 

Well that was my point with the "Kids still have parents, right?" comment.  Who the **** is giving their 8 year old a credit card?  

 

I'm extremely liberal socially, but I also have a degree in economics and believe in free market capitalism and a degree in law and don't think the law is the best solution to everyone's issues.  Casinos are only regulated to 1) collect taxes and 2) prevent money laundering.  Also, as a good liberal, I am totally in favor of the decriminalization of many drugs, like marijuana, will maintaining that particularly addictive and destructive drugs like meth and crack and stuff should be illegal (but not subject users to lengthy jail sentences).  Video games are like pot.

 

Finally, I think my initial position is perfectly valid and that you are just whining because you want the video games you MUST PLAY to be cheaper.  

 

Do you have kids?  Do they have their own devices and online accounts for stuff like the app store and xbox live and amazon and the playstation network?  It is extremely easy for them to get into **** like this.

 

Gambling is regulated for all kinds of reasonings.  If regulations were just about generating tax revenue, then we wouldn't have bans/restrictions on online gambling and age and zoning restrictions designed specifically to keep casinos away from the vulnerable members of society.

 

I'm pretty smart and have a college education too.  I have sunk a lot of money into a micro-transaction game because I was addicted to it.  Anyone can be manipulated into doing it, especially when the slot machine is disguised as a fancy game, particularly one that is monstrously appealing to kids.

 

Marijuana is illegal and video games aren't.  Let's say we were to go a step past decriminalization and legalize marijuana--that would involve a great deal of regulation right?  Restrictions on who can sell the product, who the product can be sold to, and where it can be used?  Well, if gaming is a similar form of recreation, shouldn't it be regulated too?  As an absolute bare minimum, shouldn't there be age restrictions on loot box/microtransaction games?

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

15 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Do you have kids?  Do they have their own devices and online accounts for stuff like the app store and xbox live and amazon and the playstation network?  It is extremely easy for them to get into **** like this.

 

Gambling is regulated for all kinds of reasonings.  If regulations were just about generating tax revenue, then we wouldn't have bans/restrictions on online gambling and age and zoning restrictions designed specifically to keep casinos away from the vulnerable members of society.

 

I'm pretty smart and have a college education too.  I have sunk a lot of money into a micro-transaction game because I was addicted to it.  Anyone can be manipulated into doing it, especially when the slot machine is disguised as a fancy game, particularly one that is monstrously appealing to kids.

 

Marijuana is illegal and video games aren't.  Let's say we were to go a step past decriminalization and legalize marijuana--that would involve a great deal of regulation right?  Restrictions on who can sell the product, who the product can be sold to, and where it can be used?  Well, if gaming is a similar form of recreation, shouldn't it be regulated too?  As an absolute bare minimum, shouldn't there be age restrictions on loot box/microtransaction games?

 

Do you have kids? 

 

It's technically illegal for them to own a master account as the TOS state you have to be 18 years of age.  So if a parent is dumb enough to create an account for their child and not pay attention to what the child can do with said accounts (if they don't block them from making transactions/buying things or failing to know transactions can be made as their Credit Card is on file) then that's their own fault.

 

Edit:  When I got a second Xbox One for my daughter (who is 9 years old), the master account is in my wifes name with our credit card on file.  We set it up to where she can't make transactions on her profile.  While also letting her know that she is not to switch profiles or try to purchase anything in game.  Same with my old iPhone I gave her to play mobile games on, it's password protected, she can't make any in game purchases or purchase new apps/games.  

 

Edit 2:  How old were you when you were addicted to this game?  

[PleaseBlitz]

25 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Do you have kids?  Do they have their own devices and online accounts for stuff like the app store and xbox live and amazon and the playstation network?  It is extremely easy for them to get into **** like this.

 

I have a 2 year old.  She does not have a credit card.  

 

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Gambling is regulated for all kinds of reasonings.  If regulations were just about generating tax revenue, then we wouldn't have bans/restrictions on online gambling and age and zoning restrictions designed specifically to keep casinos away from the vulnerable members of society.

 

Those laws generally aren't about vulerability, they are about capacity.  Meaning, if a minor loses a bunch of money and doesn't pay (for example, cancelling their credit card right after losing the money, but before it actually gets charged), the online casino has no legal recourse to get that money.  

 

But sure, minors aren't allowed to do a lot of stuff, gambling is one of them.  

 

Quote

 

I'm pretty smart and have a college education too.  I have sunk a lot of money into a micro-transaction game because I was addicted to it.  Anyone can be manipulated into doing it, especially when the slot machine is disguised as a fancy game, particularly one that is monstrously appealing to kids.

 

Addicted like, your body physically craved it and you had to go to rehab and now you can never play video games again?  Or addicted like, you really enjoyed the game and thus ended up sinking your money into it?  

 

Edit:  What game?

 

Quote

 

Marijuana is illegal and video games aren't.  Let's say we were to go a step past decriminalization and legalize marijuana--that would involve a great deal of regulation right?  Restrictions on who can sell the product, who the product can be sold to, and where it can be used?  Well, if gaming is a similar form of recreation, shouldn't it be regulated too?  As an absolute bare minimum, shouldn't there be age restrictions on loot box/microtransaction games?

 

There should absolutely be an age restriction.  My understanding is that you have to pay using a credit card.  You have to be 18 to have and use a credit card.  So, the gamers, if minors, are actually breaking the law in order to make these transactions.  IMHO, it's not the video game developers job, nor the governments, to police a parent giving their child access to their credit card inside the home.  That should be the parents job.  

 

As a parent, especially as a liberal one, I don't want the government getting too involved in my parenting decisions.

[Springfield]

Again, I think they should age restrict the games that feature micro transactions.  Make it so you have to be over 18 to buy them, as innocuous as the game may seem.

[Springfield]

 

 

While they are at it, stop with this unrated online content bull****.  If you’re playing a game online, with others, then you’re going to hear every curse word and racial slur under the sun.  We are doing a disservice to our parents of this country by not making them fully aware of the type of **** that gets said among complete strangers on video games.  Any game that features online play should be labeled as “M” also.

[Going Commando]

27 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Those laws generally aren't about vulerability, they are about capacity.  Meaning, if a minor loses a bunch of money and doesn't pay, the casino has no legal recourse to get that money.  

 

Are you arguing that bans and restrictions are mostly to protect the casinos/vendors?  I don't think that's true.

 

27 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

Addicted like, your body physically craved it and you had to go to rehab and now you can never play video games again?  Or addicted like, you really enjoyed the game and thus ended up sinking your money into it?  

 

Have you ever been addicted to anything like this before?  Not a chemical, but a behavior.  It's not really about enjoyment.  It's about compulsion/getting swept up in a behavior to the point you don't make decisions rationally.  It's a deeper part of the brain in play.  And you don't see what's happening to you as it's going on.

 

27 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

There should absolutely be an age restriction.  My understanding is that you have to pay using a credit card.  You have to be 18 to have and use a credit card.  So, the gamers, if minors, are actually breaking the law in order to make these transactions.  IMHO, it's not the video game developers job, nor the governments, to police what a parent giving their child access to their credit card inside the home.  That should be the parents job.  

 

Your child is too young for this issue to have come up.  But it is a different animal when they're 10-12 years old and they become more private and start figuring out how to work technology and play games on their own.  And they're pressured by their peers to participate in certain games.  And frankly, they get smarter and more tuned in to new technologies and games than you, and you don't really understand what you're getting into when you get them an XBox and let them buy that one game in the marketplace they wanted and you don't really understand how to restrict purchasing power on a byzantine user interface for account management on a device you've spent a total of 10 minutes on when you were setting it up for them.  And you're tired when you come home from work and can't keep up with what they're doing, nor can you control what's influencing them outside of your household.  Kids are incredible at getting into stuff that's bad for them.

 

Bottom line for me is that we as a society should be responsible enough to make it as difficult as possible for a predatory gaming industry to peddle these kinds of gambling mechanisms to people, especially kids.  If you want to look at it in terms of economic incentives, putting burdensome regulation on a predatory behavior creates a strong economic incentive to cease engaging in said behavior.

[PleaseBlitz]

13 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Are you arguing that bans and restrictions are mostly to protect the casinos/vendors?  I don't think that's true.

 

I'm saying that it is a major consideration.  And I work in that space.  

 

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Have you ever been addicted to anything like this before?  Not a chemical, but a behavior.  It's not really about enjoyment.  It's about compulsion/getting swept up in a behavior to the point you don't make decisions rationally.  It's a deeper part of the brain in play.  And you don't see what's happening to you as it's going on.

 

No.  I won't opine on your exact situation.  Not sure you get to just blame your behavior on others though, then demand change to suit your personal desires. 

 

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Your child is too young for this issue to have come up.  But it is a different animal when they're 10-12 years old and they become more private and start figuring out how to work technology and play games on their own.  And they're pressured by their peers to participate in certain games.  And frankly, they get smarter and more tuned in to new technologies and games than you, and you don't really understand what you're getting into when you get them an XBox and let them buy that one game in the marketplace they wanted and you don't really understand how to restrict purchasing power on a byzantine user interface for account management on a device you've spent a total of 10 minutes on when you were setting it up for them.  And you're tired when you come home from work and can't keep up with what they're doing, nor can you control what's influencing them outside of your household.  Kids are incredible at getting into stuff that's bad for them.

 

So you want the government to step in to a parenting vacuum.  I guess that's reasonable.  But I don't want that; my wife and I will put in the effort to figure out the freaking account management system on a device.  

 

Quote

 

Bottom line for me is that we as a society should be responsible enough to make it as difficult as possible for a predatory gaming industry to peddle these kinds of gambling mechanisms to people, especially kids.

 

Again, if they are doing something egregiously predatory or deceptive or abusive, then sure, I have not problem with government regulation regarding those types of activities.  But I don't think that it is a legal problem to be solved that developers develop games with in-game purchases.  There are a kajillion products in the marketplace that aren't a good fit for everyone, or even that are harmful to people if not used in moderation.  

 

[Going Commando]

4 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

I'm saying that it is a major consideration.  And I work in that space.  

 

Well then how do extensive bans on things like online gambling help vendors who would want to sell online gambling services?

 

I think there is absolutely an effort to protect society from the wolves in the way we regulate gambling that you're glossing over.

 

8 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

No.  I won't opine on your exact situation.  Not sure you get to just blame your behavior on others though, then demand change to suit your personal desires. 

 

Eh, it's easy to blame people who get addicted to something for their mistakes and choices.  I think people need that to stave off the recognition of just how vulnerable all of us really are.  That was my point in bringing up my own experience with this little predatory cottage industry--ANYONE can be manipulated into engaging in these behaviors and getting stuck.

 

11 minutes ago, PleaseBlitz said:

So you want the government to step in to a parenting vacuum.  I guess that's reasonable.  But I don't want that; my wife and I will put in the effort to figure out the freaking account management system on a device.  

 

 

I hope you are able to protect yourself and your child from anyone preying upon them like these developers do.  Although I think you're going to be surprised to find how little control you have over their life once they get older.  Let me ask you something personal though, are you and your wife pretty well off?  To the point where one of you doesn't really have to work and thus has a lot of time to keep way in tune with the quotidian minutiae of your child's life?  If so, that's wonderful.  But most parents actually don't have that kind of capacity to shelter their kids that way.  Should parents who aren't or can't be as involved be screwed and developers allowed to prey on their kids?  What is it that you or society as a whole is gaining from allowing it to go on?

[PleaseBlitz]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Well then how do extensive bans on things like online gambling help vendors who would want to sell online gambling services?

 

I think there is absolutely an effort to protect society from the wolves in the way we regulate gambling that you're glossing over.

 

Legislation pushed by brick and mortar casino owners with deep pockets.  

 

http://time.com/3695948/sheldon-adelson-online-gambling/

 

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Eh, it's easy to blame people who get addicted to something for their mistakes and choices.  I think people need that to stave off the recognition of just how vulnerable all of us really are.  That was my point in bringing up my own experience with this little predatory cottage industry--ANYONE can be manipulated into engaging in these behaviors and getting stuck.

 

Eh, it seems like you recognize you have a problem, but instead of removing yourself from the problem, you want game developers enable you in a more friendly way.  

 

Quote

 

I hope you are able to protect yourself and your child from anyone preying upon them like these developers do.  Although I think you're going to be surprised to find how little control you have over their life once they get older.  Let me ask you something personal though, are you and your wife pretty well off?  To the point where one of you doesn't really have to work and thus has a lot of time to keep way in tune with the quotidian minutiae of your child's life?  If so, that's wonderful.  But most parents actually don't have that kind of capacity to shelter their kids that way.  Should parents who aren't or can't be as involved be screwed and developers allowed to prey on their kids?  What is it that you or society as a whole is gaining from allowing it to go on?

 

So far I've protected myself just fine.  Since my last post, I went and played The Last of Us Remastered for about an hour.  I'm still solvent.   

 

And, while wife and I are pretty well off, we both work and I have a particularly time-intensive job.  I'm still quite sure that we'll be totally capable of raising our kids in the manner that we want.  To your last point, I do not want the government involved in how i raise my kids.  The so-called "free range kids" scandal in Silver Spring is a good example of government being terrible at parenting:  https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/parenting/wp/2015/05/26/what-exactly-is-this-whole-free-range-kid-thing/?utm_term=.cda1124a0ae7

 

For example, the drinking age is 21.  I absolutely intend to teach my kids how to drink responsibly before they go off to college, which means letting them drink under my supervision as teenagers.  I am confident that i will be able to mold them into responsible drinkers, just as my parents did for me.  Likewise, I am 100% certain that I will be able to teach my kids about how to game responsibly and, in any event, I'll be the one with the credit card at all times ( @Springfield makes good points, and I believe he is a single parent).  Giving up on figuring out the in-game purchase function on an iPad after 10 minutes is not how i operate.  

 

Maybe you've been unsuccessful at this (I noticed that you avoid the question posed directly to you about whether you have kids), but I'm pretty confident that I'll be fine.  

 

 

[dchogs]

1 hour ago, PleaseBlitz said:

No.

 

[cough]tribalwars[cough]

 

i see you PB...

 

tribal wars was a fair game to me with a minor in-game purchase... the purchased plan made things a little easier/more efficient, but from what i remember you never NEEDED to pay. 

[PleaseBlitz]

2 minutes ago, dchogs said:

[cough]tribalwars[cough]

 

i see you PB...

 

tribal wars was a fair game to me with a minor in-game purchase... the purchased plan made things a little easier/more efficient, but from what i remember you never NEEDED to pay. 

 

 

That game was fun as ****, but I was never the guy waking up at 4am to send out farming runs.  It fit neatly into my life at the time.  Hell, half of my time spent on TW was talking **** on the tribal message board, not actually playing the game. 

[Dont Taze Me Bro]

 

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Your child is too young for this issue to have come up.  But it is a different animal when they're 10-12 years old and they become more private and start figuring out how to work technology and play games on their own.  And they're pressured by their peers to participate in certain games.  And frankly, they get smarter and more tuned in to new technologies and games than you, and you don't really understand what you're getting into when you get them an XBox and let them buy that one game in the marketplace they wanted and you don't really understand how to restrict purchasing power on a byzantine user interface for account management on a device you've spent a total of 10 minutes on when you were setting it up for them.  And you're tired when you come home from work and can't keep up with what they're doing, nor can you control what's influencing them outside of your household.  Kids are incredible at getting into stuff that's bad for them.

 

Bottom line for me is that we as a society should be responsible enough to make it as difficult as possible for a predatory gaming industry to peddle these kinds of gambling mechanisms to people, especially kids.  If you want to look at it in terms of economic incentives, putting burdensome regulation on a predatory behavior creates a strong economic incentive to cease engaging in said behavior.

 

Please.  It's called being a responsible parent and staying in touch with what your kids are doing.  And stop making it out like it's almost impossible to prevent them from purchasing micro-transactions on a console or online PC game, etc.  If they have the internet and don't know how to set-up parental settings, it's called Google search.  Works pretty darn good too.

 

My daughter is almost 10, huge into gaming and watching videos on youtube, etc.  Both me and my wife work full time jobs (my wife about 70 hours a week) and still know what is going on with our child.  Sure, as she gets older she's going to learn how to keep things from us, all kids do.  But as far as video game transactions are concerned, she would have to literally get in my wallet or wife's purse, take the card and enter it in on her own.  At that point, your child probably has more issues that need to be addressed than video game transactions.  

 

 

[Springfield]

@PleaseBlitz, I’m married but have two boys (3 and 1).  You’re probably thinking about @codeorama id assume.

 

 

I played Goalline Blitz which was big here for a little bit maybe 10 years ago.  Probably dumped $500 into that game, making more and more players, buying teams, etc.  I wonder if my account is still valid there.  

[PleaseBlitz]

6 minutes ago, Springfield said:

@PleaseBlitz, I’m married but have two boys (3 and 1).  You’re probably thinking about @codeorama id assume.

 

 

Yes, my mistake.  

[Predicto]

Gotta admit, I'm a gamer and someone who recognizes the value of consumer protection regulation, but I'm having trouble caring about this.  

[Going Commando]

3 minutes ago, Predicto said:

Gotta admit, I'm a gamer and someone who recognizes the value of consumer protection regulation, but I'm having trouble caring about this.  

 

Give this trend towards micro-transactioning about 5 to 7 years and every blockbuster game is going to be like this.

[Predicto]

4 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

Give this trend towards micro-transactioning about 5 to 7 years and every blockbuster game is going to be like this.

 

Then maybe in 5 to 7 years we will have a better handle on what regulation, if any, would be appropriate?

[dchogs]

1 hour ago, dchogs said:

tribal wars was a fair game to me with a minor in-game purchase... the purchased plan made things a little easier/more efficient, but from what i remember you never NEEDED to pay. 

just for ****s and grins, i just watched a more recent TW review... things have been upgraded big time, but it is also now a pay to win whore of a game.  i can't imagine someone that doesn't pay could be competitive.

[bearrock]

2 hours ago, Dont Taze Me Bro said:

 

The difference is in the game they paid for, they can get those items by grinding out and playing the game.  It just takes a **** load of time.  But they can still get the same items without paying any more money.  Just investing more time playing the game.  

 

 

One could work multiple jobs and overtime to make more money instead of gambling too.  Paywall and pay to win may be related concepts, but not always the same.

 

In terms of the parenting aspect, I don't think that is the main thrust of the gambling prohibition laws.  Minors can't contract anyway.  If a minor runs up credit card charges on a parent's card, that is handled by the Truth in Lending Act and the respective card's unauthorized charge policy.  At max, it's going to be $50 liability.

 

While it may be easy to say that responsible adults should be responsible for their behavior, the law recognizes and curtails various seedy behaviors.  Why have false advertising laws?  People should research the advertised claims and double check the fine prints of a contract.  Why have mandatory warranties?  People should research product quality, take out insurance, and protect themselves against the possibility of faulty product.  What's the point of drug laws?  Gambling laws?  

 

You can take the position that gambling laws are unnecessary, bad, should be personal responsibility, etc.  That's a different discussion altogether.  Companies are not defending loot boxes saying that gambling should be legal and therefore nothing is wrong with it.  They are saying that loot boxes aren't gambling.  They are intentionally trying to prey on the gambling impulses of the consumers, while saying that it is not gambling.  I believe it is gambling as defined in many states, including Virginia and it's time to call them out on it.  If people want to say "oh this should be a permissible form of gambling", that's fine.  I would argue that the exact odds should be disclosed, but whatever.  But let's not pretend that it's not gambling.