Discussions on a heavily criticized OL

[bradboyd80]

Maybe I'm putting words in your mouth, but this argument is basically that Cousins should have actually taken more sacks - he avoided taking sacks by carelessly throwing the ball up, and this carelessness resulted in more INTs.  When faced with pressure, he threw the ball up instead of eating the sack.  This is a popular explanation among the RG3-is-good camp because it turns one of RG3's greatest weaknesses - his propensity to take sacks - into a strength.  He doesn't take sacks because he's a bad QB, he takes them because he's a smart QB that knows that a sack is better than an interception.  You should be thankful that he takes the sacks instead of being like Cousins and throwing a 50/50 ball up in the air for a potential pick like Cousins!

Yep, you sure did.  That's not even close to what I was saying. 

[TSO]

I think what gets lost in any discussion about the Oline is that they are actually good at zone blocking in the run game. I think a lot of the positive ratings by PFF are because of that, but I'm only assuming that's the case.

Too often we only focus on pass blocking and seek to define or grade the Oline exclusively from that vantage point.

They're not big and they're not going to overpower anyone, outside of Trent. But they are smart and seem to work well with each other. You don't really see them just miss their guy.

Most of the breakdowns occur with the TEs and RBs when it comes to that. And, as discussed ad nauseam, the QB play. Which causes some to put too much blame on them.

But their weaknesses are clear. They can't anchor well, especially when a defense knows we're going to pass, like on 3rd and long. They get pushed back even if they're on their guy and fulfilling their responsibility (I bet that's also where they earn positive grades from PFF whereas it doesn't pass our eye tests).

And they're certainly not going to move the LOS when you need a yard or two for your RB to move the sticks.

So we definitely need to improve there. It would be awesome to just see them completely stymie a pass rush where no Dlinemen or LBs get a half yard into the backfield. You see other team's Olines doing that a few times or more a game. Yet, we NEVER see that from ours.

The other part of it is the red zone offense and general short yardage. Just makes the team one dimensional because you're essentially forced to call PA or a drop back pass as a play caller in those situations.

Gruden actually had the Bengals as one of the most efficient red zone offense's in the league. I think they were actually the best one year, but I may be wrong on that. Having AJ Green will certainly help your cause there, but I think a major part of that not translating here was due to the skill set of the Oline.

[Est.1974]

I'm not sure any of us have a real idea how good or bad our OL is.

Take your pick, undersized players, players that don't fit the scheme, poor QB play, poor coaching, poor TE/RB support play. I think we've seen them all as reason for the perception of the OL sucking.

A completely uneducated guess gets you to the OL being just plain average. We have a great LT and the rest is a wash.

My hope is that we now have a great OL coach. We have a number of young players, Moses, Long, Compton, even LeRib, who will get some top class coaching. We have the potential to develop some young players.

We were clearly looking in FA but the market got too hot. A couple of vets still sit out there, I think Scot will watch the draft unfold before investing too much money on a vet FA.

I genuinely think its a season too early to really know what talent we could have on the OL from our current roster. I hope Bill Callahan turns a couple of these existing players into damn good starters.

I'd also add that I'm in favour of Scot drafting OL at any position other than LT. If he's going BPA, then pick the best and let them fight it out.

[Wildbunny]

I wouldn't considered LeRibeus young has he's been in this league for 3 years now and haven't done much.

 

On a side note, I read that Scherff is not suited to play left side because of a small range.

 

Just for comparison:

Trent Williams:

- Height: 6'5"

- Weight: 315 lbs

- Arm Lenght: 34 1/4"

- Hands: 9 3/4"

 

Brandon Scherff:

- Height: 6'5"

- Weight: 319 lbs

- Arm Lenght: 33 3/8"

- Hands: 11"

 

And both were seen with flaws in pass protection when coming out of college. Pretty same prospects to me. And Trent is a monster.

 

Regarding FA, the only guy I'd like to give a shot is Wisniewski, even though I'm concerned the fact the Raiders cut him and I still can't really figure why.

[justice98]

What's funny is that for every Dallas OL that has 3 1st round picks, theres another OL like GB where they have a 4th round OT at LT doing just well. QB play has a funny way of fixing many issues

 

That's what scares me.  Griffin ain't Rodgers, so without a talent upgrade on the OL, I can't say I'm optimistic he'll be good enough to make us forget the OL needs some work. 

 

In our case, we'll need a good OL to prop up the QB, rather than the other way around. 

[justice98]

No excuses: The personnel is sub-par and in a league driven by QB success, not having a solid line is a huge waste of resources. We can do so much better and this failing deserves attention in the draft.

Thankfully, we now have a skilled OL coach to help with talent acquisition.

 

I'm glad you said "acquisition".  Because that's a key point because I see a lot of the expectation that Callahan's going to make chicken salad out of you-know-what.  We're relying on Callahan to coach up a bunch of dudes he had nothing to do with.  It'd be one thing if he were coaching up people he helped evaluate and bring in.  He might not think much of Moses and Long for all we know.  This current group is Foerster and Allen's boys, (and even Shanahan's).  I wanna see Callahan coach Callahan and McCloghan's boys. 

I am trying to convince myself of that theory.  that we didn't to anything about our OL in FA, because our Talent Evaluator Guru looked at the film of the people we've already got, and decided that they aren't as bad as all of us think they are.

 

Or the people available weren't worth what they were getting.  It could've been, you live with what you have for now, or pay through the nose for marginal upgrades.

[Burgold]

Watching the guards in the run game tells me that the line needs help. They were absolutely abused routinely and often barely slowed their assignment more than a folding chair would.

That's where I start.  Larry mentioned this too. Others may have after.

 

Morris is a powerful back with pretty good vision. Most of the year, he was averaging less than three yards a carry. Gruden gave up on giving the football to Alfred on 3rd and short or goal line situations because the o line would get overwhelmed too quickly. Whenever a team, any team wanted pressure, they got it straight down the middle... at least it seemed that way.

 

Now, it is possible that the o-line itself is not the entire problem, but that the tight ends, running backs, and QBs are so bad... even in the run game that they create the illusion that our line sucks. The problem with that is that the pressure so often comes straight up the gut.  No, our eyes do not deceive us. In fact, if our o line is ranked above average, I suspect that speaks more to the quality of the skill players bailing them out.

 

I'll go so far as to say when I went to training camp and was watching blocking drills that the defensive end got by the right tackle almost half the time without being touched. I do think Chester's trying. There's a reason why coaches seem to like him, but he's not holding up or getting any push.

 

Again, if we want to pin this all on Griffin or McCoy (who was getting sacked 7 times a game) because they are taking a five step drop when they should take three then the hits should be coming from the outside. Very often, they come from the middle. Depth shouldn't make that much of a difference if you are blocking a guy running straight down the middle to get to your QB.

 

Basically, our blocking was terrible, our QBs didn't help, but the line made a bad situation worse... much worse.

I think what gets lost in any discussion about the Oline is that they are actually good at zone blocking in the run game. I think a lot of the positive ratings by PFF are because of that, but I'm only assuming that's the case.

 

but even that wasn't true the first half of the year. The running game only really reemerged at all when Griffin came back. Without the threat of the RO, the running game couldn't go either.

[Burgold]

 

 

(2) Cousins generally does not make poor decisions with the football.  If he were just chucking the ball up in the air in hopes of avoiding sacks, we would expect this to be reflected in low TD%, low completion percentage, low yards per attempt, etc.  Returning to the 7 QBs in Redskins history who had a better sack rate than Cousins did in 2014, Cousins ranked #1 in completion %, #4 in TD%, #2 in YPA, #1 in yards/game, #3 in QB rating, and #3 in adjusted net yards per attempt.  Considering he's going up against Rypien's 1991 season, it's pretty amazing that he was able to rank #1 in any of those categories at all, let alone the 2 that he did.  His interception % was the second worst among the 7 other QBs, but this is reflected in his lower adjusted net yards per attempt (which is still very impressive).  Other evidence that Cousins generally makes good decisions is the discussion that we had in another thread regarding the fact that 60% of his passes are completed in 2.5 seconds or less - when you combine that with him being tied for #2 in the league in yards per attempt, #1 in yards per game, etc. it indicates that he makes quick decisions that are generally very good (i.e. not just chucking the ball willy nilly).

 

What you need to do is look at Cousins' accuracy and effectiveness on third down (passing downs) and the second half. His numbers drop by an insane amount. His QB rating when defenses expect him to throw or he needs to throw drops more than 20 points. That means something. He goes from average numbers to really bad numbers. More, each game he played as DC's got tape and saw our weaknesses got consecutively much worse. Did they figure out the QB, the O-line or both? I'd argue both, but they also understood that they could get pressure up the middle. No QB does well with pressure in his face. 

[Bantu]

I've been 100% on the side that the worst of the QB pressure issues were self inflicted by the QB, especially RGIII. However, if the San Francisco 49ers taught us anything, pouring resources into the o-line can mask many deficiencies much like great QB play can mask weaknesses elsewhere on the team. I just think it might be easier to find good o-line players while we "search" for the answer at QB.

[pjfootballer]

The interior line is junk. Both guards and center. Good offensive lines don't get pushed back and have several plays a game where their QB seemingly had all day. The redskins interior line was constantly pushed back in the passing game, not allowing the formation of a real pocket and in the run game.... See my earlier post.

There's been so much talk the last couple of years about getting a RT, but I agree with you that the three interior spots have been more of a problem. Lich has played well, but let's face facts that he's an undersized center. He's not even 300 lbs. Even in the ZBS, he's small. Jay wants to have a power running game, so I think the interior is more important.

[Warhead36]

The OL isn't as bad as people think, and McC knows that, which is why he hasn't aggressively addressed the issue as he has with the D. RG3 consistently made them look worse then they are because of his tendency to hold on to the ball, backpedal right into rushers, and not utilize the space within the pocket to shift and move.

 

I'm not saying its great but its probably around league average. Just about every fanbase in the league blames their struggles on OL play when its usually other factors.

[pjfootballer]

I think it's been 50/50 on the line (includes the TEs) and the backfield (includes QBs and RBs).

[Aireskoi]

...

 

I couldn't really quote any phrase on line to sum up your posts.  I thought they were good reads though.

 

My question is, do you think Cousins would prefer that we upgraded the O'line?  How about the other 2 QB's?  I say they are all for it, all 3 of them, so it shouldn't matter who played better for this discussion.

 

For me it's not about which QB plays better, it's about going from Zone exclusive scheme to Power heavy run game.  It's about asking the line to hold up on 3rd down so receivers can get past the sticks instead of a 3 yard pass on 3rd and 8.

 

I want a line full of men that can block someone instead of just getting to a spot to get in the way.

[Aireskoi]

I wouldn't considered LeRibeus young has he's been in this league for 3 years now and haven't done much.

 

On a side note, I read that Scherff is not suited to play left side because of a small range.

 

Just for comparison:

Trent Williams:

- Height: 6'5"

- Weight: 315 lbs

- Arm Lenght: 34 1/4"

- Hands: 9 3/4"

 

Brandon Scherff:

- Height: 6'5"

- Weight: 319 lbs

- Arm Lenght: 33 3/8"

- Hands: 11"

 

And both were seen with flaws in pass protection when coming out of college. Pretty same prospects to me. And Trent is a monster.

 

Regarding FA, the only guy I'd like to give a shot is Wisniewski, even though I'm concerned the fact the Raiders cut him and I still can't really figure why.

 

I've been waiting to hear someone compare him to Trent, because that's who I see when I watch him more than any other comparisons.  I'm sure I'll get crushed for that opinion, but that's what I see.

[THE HAMMER'IN HOG]

Quit possibly he has yet to address the O-line, is because he will so in the draft.

 

We need guy's up front who don't just hold their ground, but take the ground that is in front of them!

 

Scherff, Collins, both do that, we could also use a center who doesn't play like he's wearing ice-skates!

Let's face it; the only linemen worth his salt is Williams!

O-linemen will make all our skill players better, and keep our D fresh!!!

 

 

 

[RedBeast]

I think QB, scheme and coaching all plays into it but it is not all of it. The players can be improved as well...either step up or get out. Need more nastiness and team based attitude. Some things are definitely not there.

[War Paint]

I thought Cooley did a great job breaking down the film and explaining it in layman's terms.  He said Robert made the oline look much worse because he frequently would take his eyes off the field like he was going to run, but then he wouldn't, and would try to look back down the field again.  This would result in a confused line because they didn't know where Robert was going or what he was doing.   Then Cooley said (Gruden said the same thing) that Robert would take 5 step drop backs when the play was designed for a 3 step drop back, and vice versa.  While Cooley didn't come out and say it directly, he basically said that everyone who's saying our oline is the worst thing ever and using it as an excuse for poor QB play don't know what they're talking about.   Shanahan told Kevin Sheehan the same thing in the off-season last year.

 

The oline can be upgraded, and should be upgraded, but it isn't as bad as a lot of fans think.  The staff knows this.  That's why they aren't treating our oline like it's the worse in the league, because they aren't.   We should find two bigger, stronger, power guards and a RT.  Kory Lich gets a lot of hate, which doesn't make sense because he's an above average C.  The only criticism one can have about Kory is that he might be a bit undersized if we move to a more power scheme. 

 

Hopefully we have at least one of those guards on the roster already.  Maybe Callahan can get something out of Long.

[RemoveSnyder]

 

If you want to go ahead and waste your top 15 pick on Scherff, go ahead. 

 

Sorry J, this is just a little ridiculous. "Waste?" 

 

lol. 

[Rskins06]

All we seem to hear from people blaming the horrible OL is just "watch the games" to prove their point. well, most of us do watch the games, difference may be we aren't looking for excuses to justify poor QB play. RG3 would look bad even with the Hogs, he doesn't make quick decisions, he doesn't know where he should be in the pocket, he doesn't feel pressure (until to late) and doesn't seem to understand how to read defenses or make pre-snap reads.

FACT: If KC didn't have mental breakdowns in 2 games, RG3 doesn't have opportunity to start another game for the Redskins. Take away 2 bad quarters and you have a QB who made the OLine look like the hogs. QBs are supposed to make everyone else look good, not the other way around. If KC somehow (big IF) eliminates the mistakes, no way RG3 wins a fair and open competition.

Our OLine can be better, no doubt, but it is not the reason we had poor QB play.

[SkinsGuy]

Watching the guards in the run game tells me that the line needs help. They were absolutely abused routinely and often barely slowed their assignment more than a folding chair would.

I don't know. Those folding chairs can be pretty tough to deal with.

[Aireskoi]

All we seem to hear from people blaming the horrible OL is just "watch the games" to prove their point. well, most of us do watch the games, difference may be we aren't looking for excuses to justify poor QB play. RG3 would look bad even with the Hogs, he doesn't make quick decisions, he doesn't know where he should be in the pocket, he doesn't feel pressure (until to late) and doesn't seem to understand how to read defenses or make pre-snap reads.

FACT: If KC didn't have mental breakdowns in 2 games, RG3 doesn't have opportunity to start another game for the Redskins. Take away 2 bad quarters and you have a QB who made the OLine look like the hogs. QBs are supposed to make everyone else look good, not the other way around. If KC somehow (big IF) eliminates the mistakes, no way RG3 wins a fair and open competition.

Our OLine can be better, no doubt, but it is not the reason we had poor QB play.

 

Are you sure this is what you meant to say?

 

I like all 3 of our QB's right now, but don't love any of them, so I don't carry any baggage with this statement:

 

This line NEVER looked like the Hogs.

[Burgold]

I notice that none of the defense of this line ever addresses the glaring weaknesses in the run game. Remember, before RGIII this running attack barely got to three yards a carry and people wondered if Morris was another Shanahan mirage. This o-line can not win 3rd and short or goal line. No quarterback on this roster had any success on third down or any passing down (look at the stats they've been posted over and over and over again).

 

It's fun to pretend it's one guy.  It's not. It's a glut of problems. Problems that existed when that one guy wasn't on the field. Several of the problems were even worse when that one guy was not on the field.

[Taylor703]

Yay another thinly veiled bash Robert thread. This has been so much fun.

[War Paint]

Well, hopefully Callahan can coach up whoever we have on the roster, along with any new players we pick up in the draft.  Let's look at the Cowboys oline.   Everyone seems to act like the Cowboys spent 1st rounders at every single spot on their oline.  They forget that their LG, Ronald Leary was an undrafted FA from 2012.  RT Doug Free was a 4th round pick.  RT Parnell, who was Free's back-up was an undrafted FA in 2009 by the Saints.  Their C Frederick,  although he was a late 1st round pick, many scouts had him rated as a mid-round pick and Dallas was heavily criticized for drafting him too soon.  Yes, he eventually became a probowler, but one can argue that they could've taken another player in the 1st and picked up Frederick in the 2nd, possibly even the 3rd or 4th round.

 

The point is, maybe Callahan can coach up guys to play at a very high level on the oline.  We have three olinemen on our roster who we drafted in the 3rd round in the past couple of years.  Maybe, just maybe, Callahan can do something with at least one of them.  If Callahan could coach up some undrafted FAs to play at an elite level, maybe he can do it with some of the 3rd round picks we have on the roster.

[Silvernon]

Trent struggled with speed once injured, and Chester was consistently embarassed 1-on-1, but otherwise I thought the line played alright. Lauvao's first season at LG, Moses' first season in the pros, and Compton is a reserve. 

 

If Long and Moses are semi-competent starters, this line would be good enough for an average QB. McCloughan will have to keep drafting players on day 2 and 3 to find eventual replacements for KL and Lauvao, but I would be very surprised if the starting line in 2015 is anything other than Trent-Lauvao-KL-Long-Moses. Aside from drafting a starting LG in round 2 and give Long the chance to compete with Lauvao, nothing will change.

 

Not exactly what everyone wants to hear, but I am of the opinion that RGIII was the cause of most of those sacks. If he does not step up his game, it will not matter how many top picks you have in front of him. Throw him in front of Dallas' O-line last year and he's not playing any better.