The Official Washington Basketball Thread: Wizards, Mystics etc

[RonArtest15]

21 minutes ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

So let's say you trade for Jimmy Butler.  The summer comes and he hits free agency demanding a five year deal.  What do you do?

 

Celebrate the fact that EG had the gall to pull off the trade in the first place.  I'm in it for the now...how long are we gonna wait for Otto to show a pulse?  Wasting YEARS of Wall's prime and Beal is just entering.  Time to stop being passive, put all your chips in the middle of the table, and do SOMETHING that will get this team past it's current ceiling. 

[CRobi21]

Brooks really has broken us...

 

We're over here praising this dude...

 

 

[Going Commando]

55 minutes ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

Celebrate the fact that EG had the gall to pull off the trade in the first place.  I'm in it for the now...how long are we gonna wait for Otto to show a pulse?  Wasting YEARS of Wall's prime and Beal is just entering.  Time to stop being passive, put all your chips in the middle of the table, and do SOMETHING that will get this team past it's current ceiling. 

 

So then there is no long term plan whatsoever?

 

Do you think Wall + Beal + Butler is enough to beat Boston or Toronto this year?  Enough to beat the Warriors?

[StillUnknown]

 

 

[Going Commando]

Is he even on the team?

[RonArtest15]

1 hour ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

So then there is no long term plan whatsoever?

 

Do you think Wall + Beal + Butler is enough to beat Boston or Toronto this year?  Enough to beat the Warriors?

 

A trio of Wall/Beal/Butler is more than enough to get to the ECF.  Won't be enough to beat the Warriors. 

 

However, as the team is currently constructed, they've hit their ceiling.  Not much will change going forward unless something drastic is done. 

 

You tell me what the longterm plan is with Wall/Beal/Porter?  With those 3, it's going to be 42-46 wins every year. 

[CRobi21]

Dude. 

 

Take a cortisone shot! Wtf

[Destino]

3 hours ago, PeterMP said:

Here's a piece that Lowe did on Korver (focusing on picks with Love) when Lebron has the ball (and clearly if Lebron has the ball, him driving the lane is a key part of the Cavs offense).

Can't help but notice:

"Without willing partners, it doesn't really accomplish much."

"This team wants me to kind of run around"

 

They're team played that way, and they set a lot of off ball screens for each other.  Their shooters on the perimeter were also constantly readjusting along the perimeter.  That's how Kevin Love got up so many shots while barely dribbling the ball at all. 

 

Next time the Wizards play I want watch for off ball screens the Wizards set.  Feel free to take notice of how many players are moving at the same time in the half court offense.  The only conclusion I've been able to come to is that the Wizards just don't play that way.  Most of the off ball screen setting they do happens if Beal needs to get going.  Once he does, they all go back to standing on spots.  There is no way they all individually decided not to run around and set screens for eachother. 

 

 

 

12 minutes ago, CRobi21 said:

Dude. 

 

Take a cortisone shot! Wtf

One of the drawbacks of these mercenary one year contracts is that players put a high priority on their health and their next deal.  The Wizards winning and losing is a secondary objective. 

[Destino]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

So let's say you trade for Jimmy Butler.  The summer comes and he hits free agency demanding a five year deal.  What do you do?

The team might let him walk and still see it as a win.  Right now they're paying luxury tax for a mediocre squad, I doubt Ted is happy about that. 

[Going Commando]

35 minutes ago, Destino said:

The team might let him walk and still see it as a win.  Right now they're paying luxury tax for a mediocre squad, I doubt Ted is happy about that.  

 

I can't see that as a win.  Wall + Beal + Porter is a lot better than just Wall + Beal.  You can play for time with that group because they're all in their 20s and they're all signed long term.

[PeterMP]

1 hour ago, Destino said:

Can't help but notice:

"Without willing partners, it doesn't really accomplish much."

"This team wants me to kind of run around"

 

They're team played that way, and they set a lot of off ball screens for each other.  Their shooters on the perimeter were also constantly readjusting along the perimeter.  That's how Kevin Love got up so many shots while barely dribbling the ball at all. 

 

Next time the Wizards play I want watch for off ball screens the Wizards set.  Feel free to take notice of how many players are moving at the same time in the half court offense.  The only conclusion I've been able to come to is that the Wizards just don't play that way.  Most of the off ball screen setting they do happens if Beal needs to get going.  Once he does, they all go back to standing on spots.  There is no way they all individually decided not to run around and set screens for eachother. 

 

Well, in my initial post, I said I don't know what they are being coached to do ("I obviously can't say anything about what they do in practice and talk about..).  But that doesn't change the fact IMO to be a player worthy of a max player given his apparant skill set, he can't afford to go stand in a corner.

 

It'll be more effective if he can get somebody that will cooperate with him, but even if not, he'd be a more effective player if he moved more off the ball and somebody's got to be first.  Maybe if he started more off the ball movement, somebody else would join him.

 

Unrelated to this point, regarding the Butler trade, unless you can point to a plan to improve the team without trading for Buter to criticize the trade because there is no longer term associated plan seems odd.

 

I said years ago, given the construction of this team, they are going to have to get very lucky to win a championship.  Something like getting a really good player from somewhere unexpected is going to have to happen.

 

And that isn't likely going to happen by standing pat with what you have.

 

(Though, I will say, I don't think Butler is actually that good now (which is a point I've made in the NBA thread) so I'm not sure he takes you that next step, but if the T-wolves will trade him straight up for Porter, I think you at least have to look at it.  If this team is going to win a championship, they're going to have get very lucky, and it is hard to get lucky if you aren't willing to take a gamble.)

Edited October 22, 2018 by PeterMP

[Going Commando]

Trading for a high mileage malcontent whose burned two locker rooms to the ground in two calendar years, who is looking to sign a 5 year max contract starting in his age 30 season is not any kind of good gamble.

 

Butler's been an All-NBA player the past two years.  He's really good.  And yet there is a reason absolutely no one wants to trade for him.

 

When you move a foundation player, then you need to do so with a long term plan in place.  To not do so is just awful team building.

 

Giving Butler a 5 year max at age 30 is obviously a disaster contract.  It's honestly one of the worst ideas we could conjur up, and frankly, it's loser talk from a fanbase that is desperate.

 

So let's say the plan instead would be to trade for Butler as a salary dump for Otto's contract as we intend to let Butler walk in the summer.  To actually get the cap space to do something during the summer you'd have to move Mahinmi too and you'd have to relinquish the cap holds on basically everyone, and hope that Sato and Oubre don't sign offer sheets, or else we'd be forced to let them walk.  And let's say we actually manage to pull all of that off.  Who exactly are we targeting in free agency?  Kawhi?  Klay Thompson?  Durant again???  Those are pie in the sky free agency scenarios.  The best outcome we could hope for with any realism whatsoever is to sign Boogie Cousins, and there is every chance in the world he will never be close to the player he used to be (which was overrated anyway), and that we'd STILL be a 45 win team.  Only now we'd be largely devoid of young talent, and we'll have essentially given up Otto for nothing.

 

You don't make moves just to make moves.  That's silly.

 

And at any rate, I'm not willing to engage in another rebuild with Ernie as GM and Scott Brooks as head coach.

[Destino]

3 hours ago, PeterMP said:

 

Well, in my initial post, I said I don't know what they are being coached to do ("I obviously can't say anything about what they do in practice and talk about..).  But that doesn't change the fact IMO to be a player worthy of a max player given his apparant skill set, he can't afford to go stand in a corner.

I agree, though I'm on record saying Otto should not have been given a max deal.  I don't believe in giving any perimeter players that can't create their own shots max contracts.  Otto should at the very least tell Brooks that he's not interested in standing in a corner and that he will not do that any longer.  He makes a great deal more than Brooks.  Brooks can either find a way to use him, or explain to Ted and Ernie that their 20+ million dollar player has been benched for wanting to be more involved. 

 

[PeterMP]

 

7 hours ago, Destino said:

I agree, though I'm on record saying Otto should not have been given a max deal.  I don't believe in giving any perimeter players that can't create their own shots max contracts.  Otto should at the very least tell Brooks that he's not interested in standing in a corner and that he will not do that any longer.  He makes a great deal more than Brooks.  Brooks can either find a way to use him, or explain to Ted and Ernie that their 20+ million dollar player has been benched for wanting to be more involved. 

 

But then you run into the issue with Steve's point.  From a competitive stand point, there is essentially no negative to maxing Otto.  If you don't, he walks, but it isn't like it changes your cap to where you open up space to sign a comparable player.  Not signing Otto doesn't really change where the their situation.

 

Once Beal was maxed, they were heavily locked into this construct, which meant maxing Otto.  That's the thing about the NBA.  You have to make the decision that this is a construct that can lead to a championship before you max that 2nd player.  Because once you do, it gets hard to add another piece that actually has a lot of value.

 

You are assuming Otto is being told to go stand in the corner and given he was just benched, it seems odd to assume he's doing what he's being told by the coach.  Not everybody has to or can move the same way in that sort of offense.  The Cavs didn't ask JR Smith to do what they asked Korver to do, and the Sixers don't ask Covington to move the same way Reddick does.

 

Just because nobody else is moving isn't good evidence that Otto isn't being asked to do a lot more movement.

 

8 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

Trading for a high mileage malcontent whose burned two locker rooms to the ground in two calendar years, who is looking to sign a 5 year max contract starting in his age 30 season is not any kind of good gamble.

 

Butler's been an All-NBA player the past two years.  He's really good.  And yet there is a reason absolutely no one wants to trade for him.

 

When you move a foundation player, then you need to do so with a long term plan in place.  To not do so is just awful team building.

 

Giving Butler a 5 year max at age 30 is obviously a disaster contract.  It's honestly one of the worst ideas we could conjur up, and frankly, it's loser talk from a fanbase that is desperate.

 

So let's say the plan instead would be to trade for Butler as a salary dump for Otto's contract as we intend to let Butler walk in the summer.  To actually get the cap space to do something during the summer you'd have to move Mahinmi too and you'd have to relinquish the cap holds on basically everyone, and hope that Sato and Oubre don't sign offer sheets, or else we'd be forced to let them walk.  And let's say we actually manage to pull all of that off.  Who exactly are we targeting in free agency?  Kawhi?  Klay Thompson?  Durant again???  Those are pie in the sky free agency scenarios.  The best outcome we could hope for with any realism whatsoever is to sign Boogie Cousins, and there is every chance in the world he will never be close to the player he used to be (which was overrated anyway), and that we'd STILL be a 45 win team.  Only now we'd be largely devoid of young talent, and we'll have essentially given up Otto for nothing.

 

You don't make moves just to make moves.  That's silly.

 

And at any rate, I'm not willing to engage in another rebuild with Ernie as GM and Scott Brooks as head coach.

 

Butler has been a part of 2 not very good teams recently.  The hope would be, he'd go to the Wiz and be enough of a difference maker to make the team good and that somehow he'd click with Wall and Beal in  a way that he did not with Rondo and Wade and Wiggins and KAT.

 

Could it fail?  Yes.

 

No real gamble looks like a good deal when you make it, hence it is a gamble.  There really is no such thing as a good gamble.  If the upside were clearly favorable, it wouldn't really be a gamble.

 

(I'm not saying I'd do it.  You can certainly play this construct of the team out, which most likely locks you into several more years of making the playoffs if things go well, but not really ever competing for a championship.  But I also understand people saying, we're willing to try to shake things up.

 

Are there high odds that it would fail spectacularly?  Yes, but that's why it is a gamble.  I wouldn't do it with the idea of clearing out cap space.  I'd do it with the idea that maybe things would click here for the combination of him, Beal, and Wall and that you are committed on doing what you have to do to re-sign him (which might not be a 5 year deal if he comes and likes it and depending on what the market for him bears).

 

If the odds are good something is going to work, it isn't really a gamble.)

Edited October 22, 2018 by PeterMP

[justice98]

14 hours ago, RonArtest15 said:

 

A trio of Wall/Beal/Butler is more than enough to get to the ECF.  Won't be enough to beat the Warriors. 

 

However, as the team is currently constructed, they've hit their ceiling.  Not much will change going forward unless something drastic is done. 

 

You tell me what the longterm plan is with Wall/Beal/Porter?  With those 3, it's going to be 42-46 wins every year. 

 

Real talk. 

 

These cats have been together for 6 years, I dont feel any closer to the promise land now than I did before.  What are we doing here?

[Kosher Ham]

Trade for Butler. 

Trade Ernie, Brooks, and Otto. 

Hire Tom Izzo. 

 

50 wins. 

[Going Commando]

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

Are there high odds that it would fail spectacularly?  Yes, but that's why it is a gamble.  I wouldn't do it with the idea of clearing out cap space.  I'd do it with the idea that maybe things would click here for the combination of him, Beal, and Wall and that you are committed on doing what you have to do to re-sign him (which might not be a 5 year deal if he comes and likes it and depending on what the market for him bears). 

 

I like Jimmy Butler's game but I just do not trust either him or his legs at all.  Consider why he's doing all of this crazy stuff this year.  He thinks it's the only way he'll get a five year max.

 

That fifth year means enough to Jimmy that he's willing to destroy his team and his reputation to get it.  That is just an awful situation.  He knows that this is his last shot at max money, he's playing solely for that money, and he is telegraphing his rapid imminent decline.

 

Trading Otto for him is the "So Wizards" move.  It's trading young for old and boxing ourselves into a position where we give a five year max contract to a guy who is about to become a shell of the player he once was.

 

If you keep Otto, you at least play for time.  Otto is not a depreciating asset.  He's about to enter his prime years.  He's a steady 8 to 9 win share player who could fit in on any team.  You look at this free agency crop and realize the only max players that anyone will really want are Kawhi, Durant, and Klay Thompson, and we have virtually zero shot at signing them.

 

If we're looking to deal to shake things up, we should focus on dumping Mahinmi and finding something with Oubre instead.  Oubre is probably going to command Marcus Smart money.

 

But again, I think all of this talk of shaking up the roster is pointless without a shake up in the FO and coaching staff happening first.

[PeterMP]

3 hours ago, stevemcqueen1 said:

 

I like Jimmy Butler's game but I just do not trust either him or his legs at all.  Consider why he's doing all of this crazy stuff this year.  He thinks it's the only way he'll get a five year max.

 

I think he is doing it because he's not happy in MN and wants to be traded to somewhere else regardless of his contract.  MN can't offer him a 5 year contract yet, but he doesn't really want to sign one with them anyway.

 

But years of service gives him a jump in what he can make next year.  By waiting a year, he can sign a 4 year contract worth more total dollars than he could sign this year with MN.

 

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/7/13/17570296/why-did-jimmy-butler-decline-minnesota-timberwolves-max-contract-extension-nba-free-agency-2018-2019

 

I'm not at all sure he's acting out to get a 5th year.  He wants to be in a position to sign the biggest longest term contract with a place that he wants to stay, which does not appear to be MN.  If he can force a trade now, then when he can sign that bigger contract it will be somewhere he wants to be.  If the market bears that is 4 years for $140 (which it pretty much will be based on the NBA CBA), and he's happy where he is, I don't see any reason why he won't stay for 4 years.  If the market only bears that he can get a 3 year deal, he'll almost certainly take a 4 year deal where he is, if he's happy there.

Edited October 22, 2018 by PeterMP

[ixcuincle]

I'm honestly fed up I can't take this anymore. This team has to play better. All they do is talk about how good they are. Show it on the court. Yall out there acting like  yall Eastern Conference champs or a 50 win team well play like it. There's no passion out there on the court. They don't give a damn. They lose to teams they have no business losing to. And it's really making me mad. This team can play a lot better but they aren't. Whose fault is it? 

 

It's just unbearable to watch at this point and I fear the struggling and lackadaisical play and nonchalant behaviour will continue. They just don't give a damn. It's appalling to watch as a lifelong fan. Being a Wizards fan has been one of the most toughest things I've had to go through, and you can even omit the Redskins because they were good in 1992 and they've at least shown progress. This team has been stuck in a damn rut since 1979. Most of us weren't alive the last time they made an Eastern Conference final. It's pathetic and people need to start backing up their trash talk and start balling on the court. 

[Chachie]

19 hours ago, StillUnknown said:

 

 

 

 

 

Aaaaaand my interest in the season dropping by 10% every time this loser is a no-show. My guess at this point is that he was WAY out of shape when he signed and that's what this is about.

[justice98]

While I dont like what's going on, until Dwight shows up, this situation is an incomplete.  He was kinda critical to this season being different, if it was ever gonna be.  Him not being there is just an extension of last season.

 

If they can go 5-5 or 10-10 until he shows up and is himself, it might not be a total disaster.  Provided they can coalesce into something.

[Destino]

 

Quote

You are assuming Otto is being told to go stand in the corner and given he was just benched, it seems odd to assume he's doing what he's being told by the coach.  Not everybody has to or can move the same way in that sort of offense.  The Cavs didn't ask JR Smith to do what they asked Korver to do, and the Sixers don't ask Covington to move the same way Reddick does.

 

Just because nobody else is moving isn't good evidence that Otto isn't being asked to do a lot more movement.

 

The reasons for him being benched make no sense.  Brooks said he wanted him out in transition, but we know Otto is our best rebounder at the moment.  You can't box out and crash boards and be out in front on transition buckets.  There's also the elephant in the room, if they want him moving around more and being more involved they could always run some plays.  Brooks gets uncomfortable when the questions move in that direction for obvious reasons. 

 

 

47 minutes ago, justice98 said:

While I dont like what's going on, until Dwight shows up, this situation is an incomplete.  He was kinda critical to this season being different, if it was ever gonna be.  Him not being there is just an extension of last season.

 

If they can go 5-5 or 10-10 until he shows up and is himself, it might not be a total disaster.  Provided they can coalesce into something.

Relying on Dwight Howard to save us is a position I doubt anyone Wizard fan is comfortable with.  On the subject of centers, Gortat's absence is probably bigger than I expected.  I kind of laughed off the idea that Gortat was a great screen setter, but the other bigs on this team can't set a screen if their lives depended on it.  Howard isn't known for being great in that area either. 

[Chachie]

1 hour ago, justice98 said:

While I dont like what's going on, until Dwight shows up, this situation is an incomplete.  He was kinda critical to this season being different, if it was ever gonna be.  Him not being there is just an extension of last season.

 

If they can go 5-5 or 10-10 until he shows up and is himself, it might not be a total disaster.  Provided they can coalesce into something.

 

 

I can dig that approach. In fact, the situation is even worse than an extension of last season because at least then we had Marcin's pick and roll and his body in their banging with opposing big men.

 

I'm salty. I'm just way too salty right now.

Edited October 22, 2018 by Chachie

[PeterMP]

2 hours ago, Destino said:

The reasons for him being benched make no sense.  Brooks said he wanted him out in transition, but we know Otto is our best rebounder at the moment.  You can't box out and crash boards and be out in front on transition buckets.  There's also the elephant in the room, if they want him moving around more and being more involved they could always run some plays.  Brooks gets uncomfortable when the questions move in that direction for obvious reasons. 

 

 

Relying on Dwight Howard to save us is a position I doubt anyone Wizard fan is comfortable with.  On the subject of centers, Gortat's absence is probably bigger than I expected.  I kind of laughed off the idea that Gortat was a great screen setter, but the other bigs on this team can't set a screen if their lives depended on it.  Howard isn't known for being great in that area either. 

 

Coaches sometimes do not tell the public the truth.  I would read 0 into a coaches explanation for why something happened.

 

I said when Howard was signed, that he might be a net negative and in particular talked about screen setting.  Gortat seems to love to do the dirty things, including setting picks.  He also has a pretty decent baseline jumper in terms of popping or giving you some spacing.

 

Howard, when healthy and motivated, is a better rim protector and rebounder, but I'm not at all sure he's a net positive.  His engagement on offense in terms of running pick and roll is going to be key.

 

(I've said, I think Howard will be a big plus or a big minus.  I don't think there is any in between.  Either the offense will work with him pretty well in which case the defense and rebounding will result in a big plus, or the offense becomes even more stagnant, stationary, and isolationist, gets bogged down and easily offset the up tick in defense/rebounding and they'll be a lot worse.)

[RonArtest15]

We got a journeyman in Dwight Howard, who has clashed with coaches and his teammates over the past 5+ seasons...Keef, who is just...well, yea.  Austin Rivers, who folks can't stand...and it goes on and on.  But Jimmy Butler, who is a all-NBA caliber talent...a top-15 talent in the league, would be too much of a problem????  LOLOLOLOL.