jbooma Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by Destino You want to know if it's a choice or not? Go stare at a picture of some dude dick and tell me if you choose to be turned on or not. I certainly know the first time I saw a naked chic I didn't think "hmm should I like this or not" my body answered the question for me by forcing me to remain seated until I was once again able to walk with out embarassing myself. Claiming it's a choice is the only way people can defend their stance, because if it's NOT a choice then that makes them bigots. Now now didn't we get in trouble a while back? For those that think it is just a choice how many gay individuals do you actually know?? Curious where you come up with your conclusion thats all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
twa Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by jbooma Now now didn't we get in trouble a while back? For those that think it is just a choice how many gay individuals do you actually know?? Curious where you come up with your conclusion thats all. I only know 4 gay men and 3 women,Two of the men I grew up with and am still friends with.IMO it is more a lifestyle[while social development early in their lives or abuse has played a factor in the ones I have known] that they are more comfortable with. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ancalagon the Black Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by voltaire007 Exactly. There are many people who have PSYCHOLOGICAL problems which make them more interested or capable of killing another human being than others. They have the CHOICE to fight it or go Gacy. For an Enlightenment philosopher, you don't seem to have grasped the issue at hand very well at all. No one is arguing that homosexual acts are not a choice. And genetics dictate that all living creatures are genetically wired to promote the survival of the species. Genetically put, we are all wired to procreate. So, homosexuality cannot be genetic. From these statements, I am pretty sure that you have never studied genetics and aren't well versed in what can be genetic and what cannot. As far as an involuntary reaction, it isn't so involuntary. All men have found themselves with a woody or with that excited feeling for no reason at all, or even at a time when we around a female that we are not attracted to at all. It seems as well that you do not know what "involuntary" means. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebowski Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 If you think its a choice then I would guess that you are leaning towards bi. I do not see my attraction to women as a choice. It just is. I can't choose to like men. I just can't do it. I think Gay people feel the same. They are who they are. Some things are can't be choosen. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RicRod Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 It's definitely a not choice. I, nor most of you, did not choose to be straight, you just were. I have good friends that have suffered a lot due to anti-gay communities...long before it was mainstream. It would be easier if they could "choose" to be straight. Personally, I couldn't choose to be gay and there is nothing anyone could do to change my feelings. I feel it the same for someone that is gay. It is nothing new, history has a long record of homosexuality. I only hope the general feeling toward everyone changes over time, just like it has for women minority rights. my $.02. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rdsknbill Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 I guess that I'm a bigot, by some of the standards in this thread. I'm with NavyDave. It IS a perversion. and is a choice to engage in said perversion :2cents: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by rdsknbill I guess that I'm a bigot, by some of the standards in this thread. I'm with NavyDave. It IS a perversion. and is a choice to engage in said perversion :2cents: So tell me, when did you choose not to get a woody at the sight of another mans body? Was it a hard choice for you to make? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thiebear Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by Destino So tell me, when did you choose not to get a woody at the sight of another mans body? Was it a hard choice for you to make? Every species is set to reproduce: I have done my fair share already so I am done... Now if i want to go to the dark side I'll be sure check out the "real pics" thread for Destino and get back to you on the above if you want.... :cool: A mans body is hideous and if it wasnt for the hardcoding of the species I doubt women would touch it either... Edit: The 8% of the men that are good looking couldnt keep the species going... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wizskinz Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Its VERY simple! When you come into the world as a newborn, DO YOU HAVE A PENIS OR NOT? PENIS=MAN NO PENIS=WOMEN:point2sky Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big z Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 dude...you do know that there are cases of genetic "defect" where people are born with both the male and female genitalia....like jamile lee curtis...(allegedly)... if stuff like that can happen, then why is it hard to grasp that sometimes, during the creation of life, signals get crossed....stuff gets jumbled....and men come out being attracted to men....and those butch women come out being attracted to women.... funny though....imagine a world where procreation was only possible with the same sex........for everyone saying "choice," have fun with your boyfriend....:laugh: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by big z dude...you do know that there are cases of genetic "defect" where people are born with both the male and female genitalia....like jamile lee curtis...(allegedly)... if stuff like that can happen, then why is it hard to grasp that sometimes, during the creation of life, signals get crossed....stuff gets jumbled....and men come out being attracted to men....and those butch women come out being attracted to women.... one day we will find out it is from all the tar we have smoked :cool: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jenmdixon Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Hm. I am curious to know how many of the men on this site who are opposed to homosexual behavior secretly (or not so secretly) thrill to the thought or sight of lesbian affection/sexual relations. Just wondering. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by jenmdixon Hm. I am curious to know how many of the men on this site who are opposed to homosexual behavior secretly (or not so secretly) thrill to the thought or sight of lesbian affection/sexual relations. Just wondering. All of them. The bigger question is how many of them are secretly thrilled with male homosexual behavior. If they think it's a choice then they must have had to make one themselves. I find that very interesting . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenic Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 I see homosexuality as a genetic fault aka: a desease. I don't feel that one can choose their sexuality, rather it chooses them. Taking that into context, i don't consider homosexuality as a choice. Humans live to reproduce and homosexuality seems, to me, as much of a natural discourse to humanity as AIDS, given time. I don't feel, however, that it is right for us to try to change or correct this fault YET. With more genetic research being done these days though, i wouldn't be surprised to see the option of eliminating, or simply correcting, the homo gene available to us during my lifetime. I openly welcome genetic research and see this as a way to "debug" humans from our arch rivals--disease. Thoughts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by big z dude...you do know that there are cases of genetic "defect" where people are born with both the male and female genitalia....like jamile lee curtis...(allegedly)... if stuff like that can happen, then why is it hard to grasp that sometimes, during the creation of life, signals get crossed....stuff gets jumbled....and men come out being attracted to men....and those butch women come out being attracted to women.... Are you saying that homosexuality is a genetic defect? I had this discussion with Code a while back, and I am of the opinion that it is a choice until you can identify a responsible gene. There have been studies, but none have concluded that a “homosexual gene” exists. It’s a choice, no matter how bad we feel that choice may be – people make choices all the time that relegate them to less than fortunate situations in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenic Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Homosexuality is DEFINITELY a genetic defect (read up for my opinion.) Think about it. In MOST situations the humans complete person is changed by just being homosexual. Figuratively speaking: I could choose, right now, to be gay. But I extremely doubt that would change my voice, my personality and everything else that this DISEASE causes. Suddenly i'de find myself liking pastel colors? C'mon now. It's completely obvious this is a genetic defect, whether proven yet or not. Wait until stem cell research leads to the ability to create a Blue Print or "Print Up" of each, individual, humans "genetic code." This is when the world takes its next step into the future. The ability to create The Perfect Being will have been introduced. Will we still lie, cheat & steal? And if not, does that contradict religion? What i think i know is just a myth for me to show myself some reasonable consideration. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phat Hog Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by Arsenic Homosexuality is DEFINITELY a genetic defect (read up for my opinion.) Obviously you are on the leading edge of this….are you saying then that homosexuality is the result of a regulatory molecule rendering a gene active or inactive – when it should be the opposite? What gene would that be? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenic Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Im no expert, by far and I had a feeling i would be called up on the science of the matter. Sometimes common sense is the best scientific tool we can have Can you atleast consider my views? It does make sense. Who, in their right mind, would actually CHOOSE to be gay? In order to WANT to be gay, you have to be gay or else you'd clearly choose the other for all its obvious reasons. Some choose to hide it and others choose to air it proudly. Thats the only choice they have in the matter. IMO Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by Arsenic Homosexuality is DEFINITELY a genetic defect (read up for my opinion.) So what type of scientific evidence do you have to support such a crazy statment?? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
big z Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 So what type of scientific evidence do you have to support such a crazy statment?? i suppose one of you has the contradictory scientific evidence.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gbear Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 I saw a reference on this thread to a fact that evidently everybody but me knows: "Children with homosexual parents are more likely to be homosexual." True? link? And if this is true, did the study ask how many of the children are biologically related to the parents? That would seem to be an arguement against it just being choice. Really what they need is a study of the children resulting from homosexual sperm/egg donors. The whole arguement seems kind of silly to me because in pages apon pages, nobody here has thought to define "choice." Clearly it means different htings to different people. Do we accept that life events make some people gay or drive people away from the opposite sex? Does this constitute choice? A person may not "chose" to be raped, but we seem to take events as a reasonable cause for the mental state of being gay (or at least some on here seem ready to claim that as cause). Many on here brought up unvoluntary reactions. The answer seems to be we can control them if we chose to. Fine, does that mean the involuntary reaction never happened unless we chose to acknowledge it/act on it? Is a priest a heterosexual if he abstains? Are we a heterosexual before we have a girlfriend (just wanting one doesn't count?)? My last question for those who say it's all in our head is does that make it any less real? My wife's family is big time into physchology. The question I always ask her dad when they talk about things like pain or addiction being all in one's head is "how does pain that in my head feel any differently to me than pain with a known physical cause?" I know I'm still gonna flinch. In any event, it makes for some interesting conversations. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jbooma Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by big z i suppose one of you has the contradictory scientific evidence.... yep it is called reality Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
codeorama Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Originally posted by Phat Hog It’s a choice, no matter how bad we feel that choice may be – people make choices all the time that relegate them to less than fortunate situations in life. It's your choice to believe it's a choice. It doesn't have to be a genetic disorder, it could be something in the brain, a chemical imbalance or anything. We don't understand 90% of the brain as it is. If we did, then you could fix people from being overweight by reprogramming them to only eat lettuce. But we can't. Thinking that someone chooses to smoke pole makes ZERO sense to me. Big Z brings up great points, if hermaphrodites are real, and they certainly are, the it's not hard to realize that wires easily get crossed etc... Bottom line is that you are 100% wrong in stating for fact that it is a choice, because no one knows for sure, it's not something that can be proven at this point. Making a choice to be gay, makes no sense, so that's why I assume it must be something that a gay person can't help. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Arsenic Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 I've argued genetic influence over environmental influence (surroundings) many times with my ex gf. She believed a childs surroundings altered the child more then then his/her genes. Here is what i believe. My genes create a factor for my abilities and inabilities. Basically, genetics create a chance of percentage for most everything. Looking down my bloodline, if i find many alcoholics and substance abusers that doesn't mean that im 100% going to be an alcoholic. Maybe my genes create an IF THEN statement for this single particular gene. This is where Environment comes into play. If I'm around it, theres a good chance that It'll grab me and vice versa. I still believe that the high % will show its face somewhere, eventually, though. What Im saying is that I believe genes and family blood create the POSSIBLITIES in the form of percentage which is ultimately defined or decided by suroundings. Although it is impossible, for me, to say at what age and circumstances the persons surroundings are libal to influence or affect te person, it makes total sense for our genetics to be ultimately determined by surroundings. To what degree, for all of that, i feel varies for each individual circumstance which, when dealing with genes, im guessing is billions & billions. Does this make sense to you? I'm having trouble explaining this the same way im thinking it. I know this may sound bigoted but I know im right about genetic influence and then surrounding influence, whether explaining t right or not. This is a very complicated issue. With all of that in mind, if someones genetic makeup determines that they have a 30% chance of being homosexual, then they have a pretty good chance of being straight. However, that 30% is still a chance, a roll of the dice which could be influenced by a number of environmental factors, possibly during their entire lifetime. Another analogy would be the substance abuse comparison i used earlier. If my genetic makeup determines that i have a 70% chance of abusing a substance (a defect in my bodies reward program) then that doesn't mean i'll come out of my mother with a bottle in my hand. That does mean that my surroundings have that 70% to work with and anything at any point has a 70% chance of exploiting that. Am i making sense yet? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Destino Posted September 2, 2004 Share Posted September 2, 2004 Quit dodging the question! Those of you that say it's a choice, please tell us when you made a choice to stop getting arroused by other men? Was it wierd having to choose? Most of us didn't have a chocie to make we just immediately liked women, but you guys obviously didn't so please tell us about this choice you keep ranting about. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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