One Plane Has Hit The Wtc, Three Others Have Been Hijacked -- Let's Read About Goats!

[Tarhog]

Originally posted by du7st

Well how about you get Bush a cell phone to talk with Cheney and co. about what the course of action is? You know, formulate a plan instead of having the president sitting there for several very crucial minutes.

When the first plane hit the WTC, I think it is unfair to expect Bush to ditch his photo op since nobody considered it terrorism at that point. When the second plane hit, EVERYONE knew we were under attack by terrorists. This includes Bush as his aid said more or less the same words. Yes Bush gave the go-ahead to shoot down planes later on, but it should have been done on the spot, in that 7 minute span. The video acknowledges that the jets that were deployed didn't have time to catch up to the plane headed for the pentagon. Thus it wouldn't have made a difference. But what if the jet caught up and didn't have the go-ahead before the plane hit the pentagon?

Why is it that Bush supporters can't dissect this video and the quotations that I've presented in a logical manner? Why must it be attacked by screaming of liberals and left and "I'm voting for Bush?" Why must you all resort to attacking Michael Moore and the website of the video? If they are so wrong then the truth will come out by analzying the statements contained within. I never brought up any politics into this debate - I stayed on topic. Bringing up my age over and over is what everyone on this board loves to do. Someone even suggested that the board should be restricted to those above the age of 35! What does my age have to do with this topic? NOTHING. Give it a rest.

Here's a better question. Why can't you stop spewing for 2 seconds and consider what the other argument here is (that would require you to acknowledge that you may not have all of the facts up front)? You clearly don't understand how the US military works. Prior to 9/11, we did not have a practice of keeping jets armed with live missiles and ammunition gassed up on runways around American cities. Have you even considered that? Its so easy to say 'why was the President just sitting there'. Thats been partially answered. He was doing exactly what he most needed to do, expressing a sense of calm and reassurance during what was a highly stressful event. Nothing the President did during those first 10 minutes would or could have made an impact on what occured. The fact that we even got some planes in the air as this was all transpiring was a tribute to our military.

Your age has nothing to do with it. But repeating the same outrageous assertions over and over, without responding to guys like Redman and their counter-arguments is only going to get you lumped in with others who are 'less than respected'. To make the claims you're making, you'd better damn well have a secret service agent who KNOWs something as your best friend and neighbor. Spouting this kind of stuff based on something you find on the web (regardless of who the President you're tarring is) is just plain wrong. If you can't see that, none of us here can help you.

[swissarmy47]

I haven't even watched it yet, but I will say this:

If it trys to insinuate that Bush or any official knew about the attacts and chose not to stop them than that's just ridiculous. No matter how much I like or dislike a politician I don't believe virtually any one of them would knowingly let something like that happen.

That said, its impossible to thoroughly respond to every threat against the US. There are just too many. You have to weed out the ones you deem serious.

[du7st]

Originally posted by Tarhog

Here's a better question. Why can't you stop spewing for 2 seconds and consider what the other argument here is (that would require you to acknowledge that you may not have all of the facts up front)?

Well why don't we see what I said at the bottom of my first post where I produced some evidence that backs up a couple of the claims made in the video...

"I have read no accounts that disprove the claims made by Moore and this video, so if someone has any I'd more then appreciate it being shared here. If not then I will assume it's pretty accurate."

I asked point blank for someone to provide evidence of the contrary, and what I received were a couple of opinions and a couple of cheap shots.

Originally posted by Tarhog

You clearly don't understand how the US military works. Prior to 9/11, we did not have a practice of keeping jets armed with live missiles and ammunition gassed up on runways around American cities. Have you even considered that? Its so easy to say 'why was the President just sitting there'. Thats been partially answered. He was doing exactly what he most needed to do, expressing a sense of calm and reassurance during what was a highly stressful event. Nothing the President did during those first 10 minutes would or could have made an impact on what occured. The fact that we even got some planes in the air as this was all transpiring was a tribute to our military.

Another poster responded with this "it is absolutely true we could have given the order to shoot them down at that point. Fighters were in the air before the second plane hit the WTC."

So some people say that Bush just sat there because telling military planes to shoot down targets when they weren't in the air is pointless. I agree. But some say that military planes were in the air during this ~7 minute section. What I asked for, again, is some facts. I have not seen a second timeline posted by anyone. All I have seen is what people "remember." Sorry but I don't trust your memory. Provide a source. I am more then willing to look at it.

Regardless of the complication of the status of military planes and yada yada I think that Bush should have been briefed by people on the premises or gotten in contact with members of his admin during this ~7 minute interval. I don't think his duty as president is to sit in a children's classroom and ponder what "being under attack means." Would this have had an outcome on the events of the day? No. Have I ever said Bush could have prevented 911? No. So why is this being assumed? I simply find it curious that Bush's first response to "we are under attack" is to sit there and ponder it for 7 minutes. It's like what if you got a phone call that said "your mom was in a car accident she is in the hospital" what would you do? I would get my ass to the hospital, not sit there for 7 minutes and ponder what it means to be in a car accident. Would my actions of getting to the hospital have any effects on the events that transpired? Nope.

[Mr. Nostril]

I didn't read all these posts. I'm no bush supporter, but fanatical websites are not strong support for claims.

[Mr. S]

im sure many of you are conservative and dislike Michael Moore, but if you read his book "Stupid White Men" he does talk about most of the Bush things in his book, like how he finished his story and what not. This information is there for anyone who wants to read it, just people are too ignorant and our media is too controlled. I prefer the BBC myself.

Also, reading from other sources, NORAD usually knows about any kinda of wayward course of planes right away and can have a jet up within 10-15 minutes from various airbases. The fact that NORAD barely acted on 9/11 til later is some indication of something as well.

There is the theories of the Jewish Zionists and the Illuminati, I wonder how true that stuff is, just seems like racist people against the Jews for the most part.

We do however need to do a better investigation into the attacks, but I dont think it will be done. I do not agree with how the video portrayed Bush as someone who just sat there, as I feel he would have done something if at least so he doesnt look bad. However, I do feel that there is information hidden somewhere along the government heirarchy.

[KDawg]

I personally agree with Hobo. A more thorough investigation of the attacks needs to occur before I believe either side of this whole thing...

The video is quite slanted in the view that Bush did nothing, as stated several times here, there wasn't much that Bush could have done... remaining calm while the SS got the area secure, etc. was just about all he could do...

I'm no Bush lover, but I don't think we can condemn him for this whole thing until an investigation occurs...

[Renegade7]

Not all propoganda is false. Having said that, not all propoganda is true either. I'm not too fond of Bush, but until this is proven it will merely remain as a rumor. A possibilty. I'm tired of lies and BS. Figures we didn't see this 2 or 3 years ago instead of right now when the Democrates are looking to get Bush out of office. Coincedence? I think not.

[Dan T.]

Does anyone believe that a video juxtaposing horrifying images of people falling to their deaths next to pictures of George Bush reading - as if to imply that his inaction is somehow responsible - is NOT propaganda pure and simple?

Even if there is a legitimate argument as to whether more could have been done in the first minutes of the attack, this animation takes an extremely unfair shot at Bush.

[Hitman56]

I'm waiting for the first Republican to make Bush's inaction somehow Clinton's fault.

Regardless of the timeline's accuracy, I remember a clip of someone telling Bush about the attacks WHILE HE WAS READING. He did not get up and leave immediately, as he probably should have.

The reason why this is coming out now (in an election year) is to combat Bush's ads claiming that he lead everyone through 9/11. I seem to remember Rudy Giuliani being the real leader that day while Bush hopscotched across the country on Air Force One.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Dan T.

Does anyone believe that a video juxtaposing horrifying images of people falling to their deaths next to pictures of George Bush reading - as if to imply that his inaction is somehow responsible - is NOT propaganda pure and simple?

Even if there is a legitimate argument as to whether more could have been done in the first minutes of the attack, this animation takes an extremely unfair shot at Bush.

Dan, I'm not arguing the point. I look at propaganda films like this as a "fact finding mission." You see, they post some things that are obvious lies and some that aren't. It's up to the viewer to look up the facts, make an unbiased judgement on the merit of them and decide for themselves. That's what I TRY to do. In this one there are two things that I am questioning and I asked this question before.

1.) Why did the President sit and read for 7 min. (I don't know the actual time, but I know he did finish reading the stroy.)???

2.) Why did he say "he saw the first plane hit the building before he went to class" in a press conference?

These are the questions I got from the video I want answered.

[Commander Adama]

Originally posted by KDawg

I personally agree with Hobo. A more thorough investigation of the attacks needs to occur before I believe either side of this whole thing...

The video is quite slanted in the view that Bush did nothing, as stated several times here, there wasn't much that Bush could have done... remaining calm while the SS got the area secure, etc. was just about all he could do...

I'm no Bush lover, but I don't think we can condemn him for this whole thing until an investigation occurs...

I totally agree with you KDawg. I thank you for your well articulated post, that was not bashing anyone and kept an open mind. It pains me to read posts like the one from IAMBG. All I can say is IAMBG, is that the very thing that allows you to post what you did, allows others to say, post, write whatever they want to also, breaking it down into a flame, and one that was very hateful, does not convey a point properly. It closes off the other person from really hearing what you have to say.

KDawg, I too, need more information. I am not just going to believe something I see on a website, read in a book, see on the news, or read in the newspapers. Just give me the straight information and I will process it on my own. The media, no matter how hard they try not to be, is still biased in one way or another. That being said, I am not looking forward to the elections. On one hand, I am fearful in having John Kerry in office, and on the other, I am very concerned about our foreign policy. Again, I just need more information to process this all.

Originally posted by IAMBG

That is crap. I made iot to What is so funny.

He did what he was supposed to do. Go on with business and not create an uproar.

F*CK THESE MOTHER F*CKERS I AM SO SICK OF F*GGOTS TRYING TO DIVIDE MY COUNTRY

[Sarge]

chomerics, du7st,

Do I have to jump in on the military side of this too, or didn't you two get enough of me in the last thread where you "claimed" to "Know" everything there was to know about he military?

You all are quickly becoming the jokes of the board you know

[BD]

Originally posted by Dan T.

The timeline is off. When Bush went in to the classroom the first plane had hit but no one knew it was a deliberate attack at that time.

I saw the videotape of when Andrew Card whispered in Bush's ear to tell him the second plane hit. It is chilling to see the expression on Bush's face, the same shock we all felt at that moment we received the punch in the gut that these were deliberate acts. I must disagree with Michael Moore's characterization of Bush's demeanor after hearing the news. He looks absolutely stricken with this gut wrenching news. But Moore is more accurate on the timeline than the animated propaganda at the top of this thread. Bush stayed in the classroom for approximately another 7 minutes - not the "20 minutes or so" quoted in this animation - about enough time for the Secret Service detail to get remobilized after an abrupt shift in plans and to get the motorcade ready to go.

This animation is an inaccurate slur on Bush.

I was going to post here, but this is basically correct.

Without getting into what I do for a living, I was working at the White House at the time of the attacks. The President's delay was entirely a factor of how long it took to scramble to get everything ready for him to get in the air - a scramble which began as soon as the second plane hit.

Oh, and please don't rely on Michael Moore for conspiracy theories. His own tenuous connection with the facts has been well documented. He's even admitted that many of the scenes in his Oscar-winning film were staged outright.

BD

[TODD]

I know this doesn't completely disspell this, but an inconsistency/oversight I see in Moore's "documentation" comes here:

. You left the resort between 8:30am and 8:40am, a go

You arrived at the school after the first plane had hit the north tower in New York City. Three months later you told a third-grader at a 'town hall' meeting in Orlando that you were 'sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower - the TV was obviously on, and I used to fly myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident. But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it ...'

You repeated that same story a month later at another 'town hall' gathering in California. The only problem with the story is that you didn't see the first plane hit the tower - no one saw it live on TV, as the tape wasn't aired until the next day. But that's okay, we all were confused that morning.

Who said the Bush saw the live action of the plane hitting the tower? Isn't it rational to believe that Bush saw the WTC on fire with a large overlay reading "Plane hits WTC Tower" right below it? Michael Moore is manipulating Bush's words here to deem him a liar. No surprise coming from an unpopular, no talent schmuck.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Sarge

chomerics, du7st,

Do I have to jump in on the military side of this too, or didn't you two get enough of me in the last thread where you "claimed" to "Know" everything there was to know about he military?

You all are quickly becoming the jokes of the board you know

So sarge, if I'm becomeing the joke of this board then why don't you answer my questions???

Percsonal attacks with no facts or rufutation of the facts will get you nowhere.

Oh btw, I'm rubber you are glue. . .

Look at the issues man instead of reverting to namecalling when you don't like the facts posed to you. It belittles your other posts.

[chomerics]

Originally posted by BD

I was going to post here, but this is basically correct.

Without getting into what I do for a living, I was working at the White House at the time of the attacks. The President's delay was entirely a factor of how long it took to scramble to get everything ready for him to get in the air - a scramble which began as soon as the second plane hit.

Oh, and please don't rely on Michael Moore for conspiracy theories. His own tenuous connection with the facts has been well documented. He's even admitted that many of the scenes in his Oscar-winning film were staged outright.

BD

THAKK YOU!!!

God, just getting an answer to some of the questions is downright PAINFULL. I'll take that as a good answer. One question left. . .

[chomerics]

Originally posted by TODD

I know this doesn't completely disspell this, but an inconsistency/oversight I see in Moore's "documentation" comes here:

Who said the Bush saw the live action of the plane hitting the tower? Isn't it rational to believe that Bush saw the WTC on fire with a large overlay reading "Plane hits WTC Tower" right below it? Michael Moore is manipulating Bush's words here to deem him a liar. No surprise coming from an unpopular, no talent schmuck.

Didn't you read the posts from earlier?

Sorry TODD, I hate to burst your bubbkle, but BUSH said those words at a White House Press conference. You can't put thespin that Moore is putting words into Bush's mouth, unless he's one hell of a ventriquilest.

Here's the link.

http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/rele...20020105-3.html

About 3/4 of the way down.

Q: What was the first thing that went through your head when you heard that a plane crashed into the first building?

THE PRESIDENT: Yes. Well, I was sitting in a schoolhouse in Florida. I had gone down to tell my little brother what to do, and -- just kidding, Jeb. (Laughter.) And -- it's the mother in me. (Laughter.) Anyway, I was in the midst of learning about a reading program that works. I'm a big believer in basic education, and it starts with making sure every child learns to read. And therefore, we need to focus on the science of reading, not what may feel good or sound good when it comes to teaching children to read. (Applause.) I'm just getting a plug in for my reading initiative.

Anyway, I was sitting there, and my Chief of Staff -- well, first of all, when we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. And you know, I thought it was pilot error and I was amazed that anybody could make such a terrible mistake. And something was wrong with the plane, or -- anyway, I'm sitting there, listening to the briefing, and Andy Card came and said, "America is under attack."

[Larry]

Originally posted by funnyperson1

As soon as I saw the video this is what I knew would happen.

Every Bush supporter in earshot would be running in to defend Bush and take a dump on Michael Moore without even considering what was said.

I have no problem with what Bush supposedly did...I mean hey...I love goats.

Now, you really can't expect to say something bad about a Republican President, and also say "I love goats", and not have anybody respond to it, do you?

[Larry]

Originally posted by TODD

Who said the Bush saw the live action of the plane hitting the tower? Isn't it rational to believe that Bush saw the WTC on fire with a large overlay reading "Plane hits WTC Tower" right below it? Michael Moore is manipulating Bush's words here to deem him a liar. No surprise coming from an unpopular, no talent schmuck.

Actually, I think it's been documented that the room Bush was "staged" out of did have a TV, but it was disconnected.

But, frankly, even as a guy who really dislikes Bush and just about every thing he's done in office (I'm even one of those kooks who think he "stole" the election), so what?

After major events like this, it's routine for different people to remember things differently.

And, it's one heck of a stretch to go from "Bush (may) (or "should") have known about the attacks before he went in to the school, to "Bush knew".

(Now, for all you Bush defenders: Granting, it's insuffecient to leap from "he sat there for 7 minutes" to "Bush knew", but could you explain, once again, how the concept of using a hijacked airliner as a weapon was completely inconcievable, when Tom Clancy wrote a book about it, what, four years earlier?)

Frankly, even I can't see any problem with what Bush did in that classroom. (I think some folks are trying to say that he didn't react enough, but I con't think you get to be President without the ability to keep a straight face when the camera's are rolling.)

[du7st]

Originally posted by Sarge

chomerics, du7st,

Do I have to jump in on the military side of this too, or didn't you two get enough of me in the last thread where you "claimed" to "Know" everything there was to know about he military?

You all are quickly becoming the jokes of the board you know

This is the last I'm posting on this thread because I'm just becoming a broken record. I finished my first post asking for a timeline that discounts some of the claims of the video and Moore. I never said I agreed with everything in the video. I never said I agreed with everything that Moore says. I was responding to a post that said "if any of it were true we would have heard it before." I posted a source (Moore - and I began the quote with saying that Moore is obviously biased - I know all about the many fabrications in Bowling for Columbine) that has said some of the same points that the video outlines, hence it has been "reported" before. Later on I posted a quote from Bush himself that verifies several of the points outlined by the video and Moore. Again, I never said everything Moore and the video said are proof. That's why I asked for a second timeline to be posted!

Where exactly I claimed to know everything is beyond me. I posted several sources that backed up some of (hear that, some of!) the claims made by the video. I was hoping for someone to respond with a differing timeline and then have a discussion about what is, everyone can agree, a pretty trivial set of circumstances. Why are you attacking me over trivial BS?

[Art]

Guys, where did Bush say he saw live action footage of the plane hitting the tower. Here's the quote that has been presented as being said by Bush.

'sitting outside the classroom waiting to go in, and I saw an airplane hit the tower - the TV was obviously on, and I used to fly myself, and I said, well, there's one terrible pilot. I said, it must have been a horrible accident. But I was whisked off there, I didn't have much time to think about it ...'

CNN, FOX, MSNBC, major news stations otherwise, all had a picture of the burning towers and the caption, "Airplane strikes WTC." Clearly Bush can obviously truthfully state he saw an airplane hit the the tower. Why?

Because when he said, "I saw an airplane hit the tower..." you have an inferred "had" between airplane and hit. I saw an airplane had hit the tower. Conspiracy theorists will ignore simple sentence construct and use print to alter the meaning of what a sentence means knowing inflection and reason harm them where printed words can hide things. This is what they do.

Very foolish people believe them.

Almost everyone in this country saw that an airplane had hit the WTC. I heard it before I saw it. And I heard the second one hit live. Then I saw that later. In any case, Bush is precisely right that before he went on, he saw that an airplane had hit the WTC. Everyone had that same knowledge.

[Hooper]

"F*CK THESE MOTHER F*CKERS I AM SO SICK OF F*GGOTS TRYING TO DIVIDE MY COUNTRY."

Hey everybody, it's Mr. Unity!

[Dan T.]

Originally posted by Hooper

"F*CK THESE MOTHER F*CKERS I AM SO SICK OF F*GGOTS TRYING TO DIVIDE MY COUNTRY."

Hey everybody, it's Mr. Unity!

:rotflmao:

[chomerics]

Originally posted by Art

Guys, where did Bush say he saw live action footage of the plane hitting the tower. Here's the quote that has been presented as being said by Bush.

CNN, FOX, MSNBC, major news stations otherwise, all had a picture of the burning towers and the caption, "Airplane strikes WTC." Clearly Bush can obviously truthfully state he saw an airplane hit the the tower. Why?

Because when he said, "I saw an airplane hit the tower..." you have an inferred "had" between airplane and hit. I saw an airplane had hit the tower. Conspiracy theorists will ignore simple sentence construct and use print to alter the meaning of what a sentence means knowing inflection and reason harm them where printed words can hide things. This is what they do.

Very foolish people believe them.

Almost everyone in this country saw that an airplane had hit the WTC. I heard it before I saw it. And I heard the second one hit live. Then I saw that later. In any case, Bush is precisely right that before he went on, he saw that an airplane had hit the WTC. Everyone had that same knowledge.

Timeline Art, timeline.

I don't know of a single American who saw the second plane hit and thought "what a bad pilot?" They saw the second plane hit and said "What the F**K!" NOBODY saw the first plane hit, the footage came out a day later!!!

You go into conspiracy and everything else I could give a crap about. Look at what he said!!!

When Bush says

"well, first of all, when we walked into the classroom, I had seen this plane fly into the first building. There was a TV set on. "

I don't think there's any argument over what he said. You can't even agrue symantics with this one it's pretty much black and white.

So why did he lie?

[Art]

Chomerics,

It's not about Bush lying so much as it's about you're incredible density bordering on retardation. Language is a simple thing there chief.

I was driving in my car when the news broke in to announce a plane had hit the WTC. Do you know what I thought? What a terrible accident. How does a plane hit the tower like that? So, let me announce here and now, I heard a plane hit the tower.

Am I lying? Or is it true I heard a plane had?

Obviously, it's true I heard a plane hit the tower. I was listening to the radio and they said so. Bush, as with many folks, happened to be watching the television when finding out a plane had hit the tower. So, the only difference between Bush and myself is I heard a plane hit the tower. Bush saw a plane hit the tower.

That doesn't mean I heard, live, as it was happening, a plane hit the tower. It means someone told me it happened. It doesn't mean Bush saw footage of an aircraft crashing into the tower. It means he saw on television a plane hit the tower. The television had that banner on their screen. Do you understand English, or are you just willfully dumb?