ArsT: “Outrageously” priced weight-loss drugs could bankrupt US health care

[Hersh]

Just now, tshile said:

Oh and anyone can exercise. That’s not a poverty thing either. 
 

and anyone who says they’re too busy is really just saying they don’t care enough to prioritize it (single mother working multiple jobs excluded)

 

 

This gets into a much larger issues of how we build cities. It's not just "they don't care enough to prioritize it" when travel times to work can be long, there is a lot to get done at home with kids and neighborhoods are great for just going out and taking a walk. 

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

Generally I think “being poor” explains a lot of what’s behind certain decisions and behaviors. Which is why generally I think it’s a good idea we combat proverty. 
 

 

Look at you being all redistribution of wealth : )

 

I think we should be putting more effort into teaching healthy eating habits and how to cook (even with limited resources) in school.

 

Algebra 2 go brrrr....

 

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

However. I see a **** ton of people that can afford the same ****ing food we eat (my wife shops at Walmart. I ****ing hate it but that’s where she gets groceries) and be healthy. They choose not to. 

 

Just begs the question should more of our food be required to be healthier in how its produced with respect to it being so easy to get yet its killing us?  Why is so much of our food killing us?

8 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

People go to chipotle to "eat heathy" and the serving sizes are enormous. Same happens at a lot of places regardless of whether it's actually healthy or not. 

 

I want to not care that people do that.  I cant because I'm not convinced chipolte is actually healthy despite advertising as such.

 

I got a veggie bowl a cople months ago, trying, I havent been back since.

 

Something is wrong here, and its not just what we're choosing to do, its our "choices" as well..

[Renegade7]

12 minutes ago, tshile said:

Oh and anyone can exercise. That’s not a poverty thing either. 
 

and anyone who says they’re too busy is really just saying they don’t care enough to prioritize it (single mother working multiple jobs excluded)

 

I'm convinced through life experience its not that simple and gym deserts are a real ting, too:

 

https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a34449599/fitness-deserts/

[Califan007 The Constipated]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

This gets into a much larger issues of how we build cities. It's not just "they don't care enough to prioritize it" when travel times to work can be long, there is a lot to get done at home with kids and neighborhoods are great for just going out and taking a walk. 

 

 

It's largely a societal issue, which is why I think individualizing the solutions won't work ("you just need to make better decisions," etc). When I went to Australia, holy forkin' shirtballs lol...everyone was in shape, at least in Sydney. I walked downtown there one afternoon and was blown away at how many people were just...fit. From businessmen and businesswomen to cashiers to kids to senior citizens to bus drivers, they all just looked healthy. And I know it's not simply because individual Australians make better choices than individual Americans (although they probably do lol). And Australia was promoting and encouraging getting exercise and eating right like a mf'er all over the radio and commercials. And it wasn't being done because there was a profit to be made by doing so...it was just their society and culture. It was bizarre...

 

After spending 10 days in Sydney and Hamilton Island, I came back to the States and went to El Pollo Loco like the next day. Every single person except me in that restaurant was obese lol...and when I say "everyone," I mean:

 

 

I remember just looking around and thinking holy crap, this really IS how the rest of the world sees Americans...as over-indulgent, lazy fat-asses. It was absolutely eye-opening experience for me. As a country and society, we don't prioritize eating healthy and exercise, probably because 1) there's no profit to be made from people handling their own bidniz, and 2) too large a segment of the population would see it as "socialist woke nonsense--you stay out of my fridge, Biden!!"

[PeterMP]

There's whole cook books out there dedicated to feeding people on cheaply on a budget.  I focused on fast because that was part of the original comment.  There are people that need economic help, but I've seen that excuse used too much.

 

And fruits, vegetables, nuts, and bread with butter can absolutely be essentially a meal.  That's pretty much my lunch most days.

 

(And berries and grapes are expensive most times of the years.  I'm thinking mostly cheap apples and bananas.)

 

I don't buy that the issue with obesity is time and money for most people.  The people that are getting obese by eating cheap fast food could eat less, buy a good multivitamin and some fiber powder to mix withe water save money, not be obese, and be healthier.  Obesity is the result of over eating.  Eating less saves money.

 

(Ignorance might be an issue.)

56 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Let's say 10%-20% live in these areas, in the context of 330 million people in this country try, that's not a small number, that's millions.  It adds up and hard to believe it isn't directly having an impact on our healthcare system.

 

And it is a minority of Americans and really a minority (less than 50%) of the obese people in this country.

 

You understand what minority means right?  And yes in absolute terms when you are talking about the whole US the minority can still be a lot of people.  But is still the minority.

Edited May 19 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

23 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

Why is so much of our food killing us?

 

Because it taste good, sells, makes companies money, and we don't have the political will to make companies stop selling it.

[Hersh]

1 minute ago, PeterMP said:

There's whole cook books out there dedicated to feeding people on cheaply on a budget.  I focused on fast because that was part of the original comment.  There are people that need economic help, but I've seen that excuse used too much.

 

And fruits, vegetables, nuts, and bread with butter can absolutely be essentially a meal.  That's pretty much my lunch most days.

 

(And berries and grapes are expensive most times of the years.  I'm thinking mostly apples and bananas.)

 

I don't buy that the issue with obesity is time and money for most people.  The people that are getting obese by eating cheap fast food could eat less, buy a good multivitamin and some fiber powder to mix withe water save money, not be obese, and be healthier.  Obesity is the result of over eating.  Eating less saves money.

 

(Ignorance might be an issue.)

 

The food industry does there best to make their food addictive so they can make more money. That shouldn't be dismissed. 

[PeterMP]

1 minute ago, Hersh said:

 

The food industry does there best to make their food addictive so they can make more money. That shouldn't be dismissed. 

 

I've not dismissed it.  I've dismissed that the majority of the people the issue isn't time and money.  That food is addictive and can make companies more money isn't blaming time and money on most people's obesity.  I think the food industry is a huge problem.  But that's not time and money.

34 minutes ago, tshile said:

Oh and anyone can exercise. That’s not a poverty thing either.

 

I just want to point out that exercise isn't really a good thing in terms of losing weight.  Exercise just generally makes you hungrier and/or more tired so you end up eating more or doing less work later and cancelling out the effect of working out.

Edited May 19 by PeterMP

[Califan007 The Constipated]

Someone somewhere suggested we outlaw so-called "Loyalty Programs" by fast food places...basically because they reward you for eating a lot of their food by giving you free food, which perpetuates a cycle of constantly eating cheap unhealthy food so that you can get more unhealthy food free. I hadn't thought about it before...

 

Edited May 19 by Califan007 The Constipated

[Renegade7]

5 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

And it is a minority of Americans and really a minority (less than 50%) of the obese people in this country.

 

Please prove this before I have to believe it.

 

A minority of Americans in food deserts is not the same as minority of people that obese.

 

Its estimated now 1 out of every 10 (some as bad as 1 out of every 7) child in US live in poverty....47% of children in poverty live in the south...

 

https://www.childrensdefense.org/tools-and-resources/the-state-of-americas-children/soac-child-poverty/#:~:text=see Table 2).-,Among the 74 million children living in the United States,poverty even deeper into poverty.

 

Quote

• Among the 74 million children living in the United States, 11 million live in poverty.
• One in six children under five (3 million children) were poor, the highest rate of any age group.
• The pandemic forced children already in poverty even deeper into poverty. Almost half (47%) of all children living in poverty live in severe or extreme poverty, a number which rose from 4.5 million before the pandemic to 5.5 million in 2021.
• The South, home to 47% of children in our country who live in poverty, experiences the highest child poverty rates with 1 in 5 children living in poverty.
• 9 million children faced hunger and food insecurity.
• 4 million children lived without health insurance.

 

Arguably the most obese states in the country are either the south or midwest (depending on where you look).

 

Before you go trying to prove this, I have concerns you don't consider this part of the problem, I never said this was soul root cause.

 

Your meals don't make sense for a family with toddlers, what you describing as a "meal" sounds like grazing to me, honestly.

13 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

Because it taste good, sells, makes companies money, and we don't have the political will to make companies stop selling it.

 

We're going to need to.

[PeterMP]

21 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Please prove this before I have to believe it.

 

It is basic math.

 

Estimates are 42% of Americans are obese.

 

https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity

 

By the USDA only about 6% of Americans live in food deserts.  

 

https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-access-research-atlas/documentation/

 

Some sources will define food desert less stringently than the USDA, but they even only put the number at about 12% then.

 

So let's even say 12% and say that everybody that lives in a food desert is obese (which isn't going to be true) that still means there's another 30% of obese people that don't live in food deserts.

 

30% > 12% (and that 12% is being very generous).

 

Basic math.

 

And that what I call a meal sounds like graving is a large part of the problem.

Edited May 19 by PeterMP

[PeterMP]

Average adult needs between 2000-3000 calories a day.

 

2 apples: ~190 calories

serving of peas: ~80 calories

1 slice of whole wheat bread: ~80 calories

1 tbsp butter: ~14 calories

1 oz nuts: ~200 calories

__________

>550 calories

 

That's about a 1/4 of the calories a day and realistically then a meal.

 

A big mac alone is 563 calories.  That alone should be a meal.  No need to add a drink or fries.  A big mac, a cup of water mixed with some powder fiber, and a multivitamin should be a meal.

Edited May 19 by PeterMP

[Renegade7]

4 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

It is basic math.

 

Estimates are 42% of Americans are obese.

 

https://www.niddk.nih.gov/health-information/health-statistics/overweight-obesity

 

By the USDA only about 6% of Americans live in food deserts.  

 

https://www.ers.usda.gov/data-products/food-access-research-atlas/documentation/

 

Some sources will define food desert less stringently than the USDA, but they even only put the number at about 12% then.

 

So let's even say 12% and say that everybody that lives in a food desert is obese (which isn't going to be true) that still means there's another 30% of obese people that don't live in food deserts.

 

30% > 12%.

 

Basic math.

 

I see....

 

You used my own link against me to make my point USDA is saying too much versus clarifying scope of the problem:

 

Quote

Low-access census tracts

In the Food Access Research Atlas, low access to healthy food is defined as being far from a supermarket, supercenter, or large grocery store. A census tract is considered to have low access if a significant number or share of individuals in the tract is far from a supermarket.

Three measures of food access based on distance to a supermarket are provided in the Atlas:

• Low-income census tracts where a significant number (at least 500 people) or share (at least 33 percent) of the population is greater than one-half mile from the nearest supermarket, supercenter, or large grocery store for an urban area or greater than 10 miles for a rural area. Using this measure, an estimated 53.6 million people, or 17.4 percent of the U.S. population, live in tracts that are low-income and low access and are more than one-half mile or 10 miles from the nearest supermarket.
• Low-income census tracts where a significant number (at least 500 people) or share (at least 33 percent) of the population is greater than 1 mile from the nearest supermarket, supercenter, or large grocery store for an urban area or greater than 10 miles for a rural area. This measure shows that an estimated 18.8 million people, or 6.1 percent of the U.S. population, live in low-income and low access tracts and are more than 1 mile or 10 miles from a supermarket.
• Low-income census tracts where a significant number (at least 500 people) or share (at least 33 percent) of the population is greater than 1 mile from the nearest supermarket, supercenter, or large grocery store for an urban area or greater than 20 miles for a rural area. Under this measure, an estimated 17.1 million people, or 5.6 percent of the U.S. population, live in low-income and low access tracts and are more than 1 mile or 20 miles from a supermarket.

 

I get your point, Its almost too much math to be basic and case can be made a lot of it isnt helping.

 

4 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

And that what I call a meal sounds like graving is a large part of the problem.

 

Please explain.

 

I'm not an expert, but my Pediatrician said NOT to do that with my kids:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32060806/

 

Whats your definition and point then?

6 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Average adult needs between 2000-3000 calories a day.

 

2 apples: ~190 calories

serving of peas: ~80 calories

1 slice of whole wheat bread: ~80 calories

1 tbsp butter: ~14 calories

1 oz nuts: ~200 calories

__________

>550 calories

 

That's about a 1/4 of the calories a day and realistically then a meal.

 

A big mac alone is 563 calories.  That alone should be a meal.  No need to add a drink or fries.  A big mac, a cup of water mixed with some powder fiber, and a multivitamin should be a meal.

 

 

???

 

We don't live on calories alone, Peter.  I would die of hunger eating that for lunch.

[PeterMP]

2 minutes ago, Renegade7 said:

I'm not an expert, but my Pediatrician said NOT to do that with my kids:

 

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/32060806/

 

Whats your definition and point then?

 

I took your post to mean that my lunch sounds like not eating enough for a meal and so grazing when in fact given what I need to eat as an adult male in terms of not being obese, it is a completely reasonable meal.  If I get >550 calories for a lunch, then I'm eating what is a reasonable meal and not grazing.

 

For most kids, that's more than what they did for a meal (teenagers might be an exception).  One of the issues that we have is that many Americans are completely out of whack with how much food they actually need to eat.

 

(I even see this with my wife in packing our kids lunch.  She'll look at what is packed and be like, that's not enough.  And I'll be like, How much you are eating today?  And normally what we've packed is as much if not more than what she's eating.)

[CousinsCowgirl84]

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

yes and no. A huge problem, no pun intended, is portion sizes at almost all restaurants in this country. Cutting serving sizes would do far more than raising taxes on sugary stuff. 

Dang. We should have made a shorter cigarette.

[Renegade7]

7 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

 

I took your post to mean that my lunch sounds like not eating enough for a meal and so grazing when in fact given what I need to eat as an adult male in terms of not being obese, it is a completely reasonable meal.  If I get >550 calories for a lunch, then I'm eating what is a reasonable meal and not grazing.

 

For most kids, that's more than what they did for a meal (teenagers might be an exception).  One of the issues that we have is that many Americans are completely out of whack with how much food they actually need to eat.

 

(I even see this with my wife in packing our kids lunch.  She'll look at what is packed and be like, that's not enough.  And I'll be like, How much you are eating today?  And normally what we've packed is as much if not more than what she's eating.)

 

I can dig it.

 

It was pointed out earlier a couple times in this thread that more effort on education around eating and preparing meals needs to be done.

 

Its been trial and error adapting how much we feed our kids to keep from underfeeding or frankly overfeeding and them throwing it up (even if they like the food doesnt mean let them eat until that happens, that has happened with us before, not in a long time since).

 

Having two under four sometimes means they get different meals (aka two different leftovers to pick from) to avoid "fighting" and them becoming scared of mealtime. Read about this and asked about this.

 

Then they become teenagers and its hard to "make them" do anything....basically caged animals counting down days to legal adulthood.

 

Why I empathize with efforts to make this easier for people versus overemphasis on need for them to "try harder" in regards to eating healthier.  Call me compromised, I can only go so far there with a straight face.

2 minutes ago, CousinsCowgirl84 said:

Dang. We should have made a shorter cigarette.

 

Hopeless when cadillacs are same price as shorts...(least they were when I smoked pack a day)...

[Spaceman Spiff]

I like it when the Tailgate tries to solve America's problems.  I have thoughts on the matter but I'd just be pissing in the ocean at this point and I don't have the wherewithal to start going back and forth with anyone.

 

But, as I am apt to do, I just came in here to make a quick joke and leave.  You'll note that this thread is to ix as garlic is to a vampire.  

[tshile]

1 hour ago, Hersh said:

 

This gets into a much larger issues of how we build cities. It's not just "they don't care enough to prioritize it" when travel times to work can be long, there is a lot to get done at home with kids and neighborhoods are great for just going out and taking a walk. 
 

everyone’s got crap going on. Work school kids spouses. Spouses that are working and in school. I’ve been on both sides of it and the reality is that if you have to make time, and you either make time or you don’t. It isn’t a fun thing to do. It’s like brushing your teeth and making sure you eat meals. You also exercise because you’re not in elementary school anymore and no one is around to make you. 

 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Look at you being all redistribution of wealth : )

 

 

I genuinely care about poor people and problems we have as a society. I just disagree with some ideas on what to do 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

Just begs the question should more of our food be required to be healthier in how its produced with respect to it being so easy to get yet its killing us?  Why is so much of our food killing us?

 

 

The government should go after fraudulent/harmful (think prey on addiction) stuff. But that’s hard to prove and takes a while. Thinking beyond that requires entertaining the “but my freedoms” arguments. No thanks. 

 

1 hour ago, Renegade7 said:

 

I'm convinced through life experience its not that simple and gym deserts are a real ting, too:

 

https://www.menshealth.com/fitness/a34449599/fitness-deserts/

you can exercise many ways that don’t involve binging to a gym. We’re not talking about getting ripped or bulking up. We’re talking about investing in your body enough you don’t need your insurance to subsidize weight loss pills…

 

1 hour ago, PeterMP said:

 

I just want to point out that exercise isn't really a good thing in terms of losing weight.  Exercise just generally makes you hungrier and/or more tired so you end up eating more or doing less work later and cancelling out the effect of working out.

[Califan007 The Constipated]

30 minutes ago, PeterMP said:

Average adult needs between 2000-3000 calories a day.

 

2 apples: ~190 calories

serving of peas: ~80 calories

1 slice of whole wheat bread: ~80 calories

1 tbsp butter: ~14 calories

1 oz nuts: ~200 calories

__________

>550 calories

 

That's about a 1/4 of the calories a day and realistically then a meal.

 

A big mac alone is 563 calories.  That alone should be a meal.  No need to add a drink or fries.  A big mac, a cup of water mixed with some powder fiber, and a multivitamin should be a meal.

 

So...a handful of nuts, a serving of peas, a slice of bread, and two apples.

 

- What if you or your kids don't like apples?

- What if your kid has a nut allergy?

- What if you add a diet Coke to the Big Mac?...No calories added so it's ok?

- What is the size of the "serving of peas"?

 

Gonna calculate your meal up there lol...using cheapest prices listed on local store site:

 

For a family of 3

1 oz nuts:

$3.73 for 8 oz.

1 oz = $.47

x 3 people = $1.41

 

(just a quick aside: you can get Ramen noodles for like $0.25 a package...so 3 packages of Ramen Noodles can feed 3 people for $0.75, almost half the cost of eating nuts.)

 

2 apples (each), so 6 apples:

$0.75 each

x3 people = $4.50

 

(another aside: $5.91 so far for a family of three to eat the meal you're proposing...and $0.75 cents to eat Ramen noodles instead lol)

 

1 slice of whole wheat bread:

Loaf of generic wheat bread - $1.79

Average of 21 slices a loaf

1 slice = $0.09 per slice

x3 people = $0.27

 

1 tbsp of butter:

8 ounce tub of butter = $2.79

1 tbsp = 1/2 ounce, so 1 tbsp = $0.17

x3 people - $0.51

 

Serving of peas:

Frozen peas = $1.00 for 12 oz

4 servings per bag

1 serving = $0.25

x3 people - $0.75

 

Grand total spent on the apples, nuts, peas, and bread meal: $7.74

Grand total spent on the unhealthy Ramen Noodles meal: $0.75

 

You could toss in some generic "hot dogs" with the Ramen noodles--8 for $1.49. Let's say each family member gets two hot dogs...

 

Grand total spent on the apples, nuts, peas, and bread meal: $7.74

Grand total spent on the unhealthy Ramen Noodles and hot dogs meal: $1.50

 

That $7.74 could feed your family once...or it could feed your family 5 times. And that's the thing missing: parents who are struggling aren't asking themselves "Can I afford this?"...They are asking themselves "What's the best way to spend this money and make it go as far as humanly possible?" Stretching their dollar are priorities number 1-thru-A Billion on their list.

 

 

 

[PokerPacker]

6 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

It's largely a societal issue, which is why I think individualizing the solutions won't work ("you just need to make better decisions," etc). When I went to Australia, holy forkin' shirtballs lol...everyone was in shape, at least in Sydney.

That's just survivor-bias.  All the fat people were eaten by crocodiles.

[ixcuincle]

I'm aware people could lose weight by IF or exercising but in extreme cases you may need to use ozempic or some other weight loss drug

 

and those drugs shouldnt' cost a mortgage

 

that's all we are saying

[tshile]

13 minutes ago, ixcuincle said:

and those drugs shouldnt' cost a mortgage

What should they cost? And who gets to decide that?

 

how much did it take to discover/create it?

[Hersh]

7 minutes ago, tshile said:

What should they cost? And who gets to decide that?

 

how much did it take to discover/create it?

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/27/novo-nordisk-ozempic-can-be-made-for-less-than-5-a-month-study.html

[tshile]

2 minutes ago, Hersh said:

 

https://www.cnbc.com/2024/03/27/novo-nordisk-ozempic-can-be-made-for-less-than-5-a-month-study.html

Right. I’m aware. But if you actually read the articles they don’t actually tell you anything. I even went to read the research and it’s confusing as to what it’s saying. 
 

Quote

But the Danish drugmaker noted that it spent almost $5 billion on research and development last year, and will spend more than $6 billion on a recent deal to boost manufacturing to meet demand for GLP-1s.

It also said 75% of its gross earnings go to rebates and discounts to ensure patients have access to its products. 

The company also said out-of-pocket costs for Ozempic depend on a patient’s insurance coverage. Patients with private or commercial coverage for Ozempic can access a savings card and pay as little as $25 for a one-month, two-month or three-month supply of the treatment for up to 24 months. 

Separate research from the University of Liverpool and other researchers has found that Wegovy could be produced for $40 a month.

no ones saying how much the r&d was. This stuff didn’t pop out of no where. There’s decades of research into weight loss and these are just now hitting the market. 
 

Your own article posts results varying from <1$ to 40$ a month 

 

“production cost” is a creative way of looking at it. The “production cost” of a soda in a restaurant is like 5 cents but that’s not what they charge. 
 

I see a bunch of people throwing around half baked information but no one actually backing up any of it with anything that makes sense. Just a bunch of “it shouldn’t be expensive” commentary. No one seems to be able to say what it should cost, and why. 

[Hersh]

4 minutes ago, tshile said:

Right. I’m aware. But if you actually read the articles they don’t actually tell you anything. I even went to read the research and it’s confusing as to what it’s saying. 
 

no ones saying how much the r&d was. This stuff didn’t pop out of no where. There’s decades of research into weight loss and these are just now hitting the market. 
 

Your own article posts results varying from <1$ to 40$ a month 

 

“production cost” is a creative way of looking at it. The “production cost” of a soda in a restaurant is like 5 cents but that’s not what they charge. 
 

I see a bunch of people throwing around half baked information but no one actually backing up any of it with anything that makes sense. Just a bunch of “it shouldn’t be expensive” commentary. No one seems to be able to say what it should cost, and why. 

 

I read the article. You asked a question and the company gave the answer they gave. The article literally gets into what the cost could be while still having a profit. If you want to argue with the researchers, knock yourself out. 

8 hours ago, tshile said:

everyone’s got crap going on. Work school kids spouses. Spouses that are working and in school. I’ve been on both sides of it and the reality is that if you have to make time, and you either make time or you don’t. It isn’t a fun thing to do. It’s like brushing your teeth and making sure you eat meals. You also exercise because you’re not in elementary school anymore and no one is around to make you. 

 

I genuinely care about poor people and problems we have as a society. I just disagree with some ideas on what to do 

 

 

After arguing with researchers, you should go around and tell obese people that they all really do have time and they simply aren't prioritizing exercising. Let us know how that goes because it's clear that you have no idea of the struggle some people go through.