2023 Offseason Mini Camp, OTA’s, Training Camp Discussion Thread: Hallelujah, Josh Harris & Co. Era Edition

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

 

13 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

I just can’t get over the fact the team was 8-8-1 with Wentz and TH, an old, slow, injured OL, and an idiot OC. 
 

Do I know Howell is better than Wentz/TH? No. Do I know the current OL is better than the previous one? No.  Do I know EB is a better OC than Scott Turner? Actually, on this I think yes.  
 

But at the same time, I find it hard to believe Howell will be worse, because Wentz and TH were so bad.  And I find it hard to believe the OL will be worse given how bad it was last year. I also think scheme is going to help the OL a lot.  
 

So if everything else is equal, they should be about what they were last year.  
 

If Howell plays well, they will be good.  If he plays really well, they can be really good.

 

if he plays like Wentz/TH last year, they’ll be average. 
 

For them to go from 8-8-1 to 5-12 would mean something which was working last year outside of QB/OL has to completely fall apart.  

Well, I hope you're happy. You screwed this team over with your jinx.

Edited July 5, 2023 by Professor_Nutter_Butter

[Koolblue13]

There is no reason to think this line will be better and I don't understand why anyone would think it will be. We released our best player due to injury concerns and replaced him with worse player with injury concerns. Gates is not a better center than Larson. Wylie not a better tackle than Lucas either. When Cosmi goes down and Wylie slides over to guard it might help. 

 

I hope Harris comes in and forces Rons hand to go get better players.

[zCommander]

9 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I hope Harris comes in and forces Rons hand to go get better players.

 

This year or next year? But then again it really doesn't matter as we don't want the owner to be hands on like Danny boy. Harris just needs to hire/install a competent GM who knows how to run a successful and competent football team.

[philibusters]

46 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As I mentioned I do think the scheme helps and Howell's mobility, too.  But eventually you are going to have to throw 3rd and longish at key moments in the game and if your O line gets blown up than you are in trouble.  I think the O line because of Bieiniemy and Howell ended up a tick better than last years O line.  But the unit is weak enough IMO to cost them games with the season on the line.  But will see.

 

 

I think that is the essence of scheme and the O-Line.   On 1st down or 2nd and short or 2nd and medium, you can definitely protect the O-Lineman more or less through the playcall  That said on 3rd and 12 there is no scheme that can protect the O-Line because the majority of the time you are going to have run routes with more vertical depth and that means pass blocking in a true pass set.

[Koolblue13]

24 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

This year or next year? But then again it really doesn't matter as we don't want the owner to be hands on like Danny boy. Harris just needs to hire/install a competent GM who knows how to run a successful and competent football team.

I mean July 22nd. There are FA Oline out there that are better than what we have and can help us win. It's Rons last year as HC and the rest of his dinosaurs in the FO will be out as well.

 

If he doesn't, I assume it's because of draft position, because everyone can see our Oline is crap and will absolute be a problem at best this year.

 

Harris is already looking into who will be his GM next year. Let's not kid ourselves. We're fighting to not be the 4rth best team in the East this year.

[MartinC]

13 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I mean July 22nd. There are FA Oline out there that are better than what we have and can help us win. It's Rons last year as HC and the rest of his dinosaurs in the FO will be out as well.

 

If he doesn't, I assume it's because of draft position, because everyone can see our Oline is crap and will absolute be a problem at best this year.

 

Harris is already looking into who will be his GM next year. Let's not kid ourselves. We're fighting to not be the 4rth best team in the East this year.

It’s quite possible the 4th best team in the NFC East gets a wild card spot this season. But I agree with your position overall. 

[Skinsinparadise]

I listened to the full podcast with Standig and Thon.  The one I mentioned yesterday.  Thon played O line and he prides himself on that being his niche.  Brugler among others quote him when they judge some college O lineman.

 

The ceiling for the O lineman to him is average but he said he definitely sees the unit as below average. The unit according to him are only average to below average players.

 

He's a bit all over the place on Wylie at different points he said he was average but then also said below average.  He said they provided him extra help at RT.  And thinks this team will need to do the same.  In other words don't leave him one on one with a good pass rusher.

 

Hes not high on the others on the unit.  He does think highly about Stromberg, he thinks he develops into an above average player.

 

He made a point that brings home the point I am fixated on which is you put a below average unit against a really good unit you are likely in trouble.  There is so much you can do to offset mismatches.   On that same plane, i think this unit will be more than fine against subpar D lines or even average ones.  But alas we face our share of really good D lines especially in our own division. 

 

But enough vetting for today from me.  Recovering from COVID, so maybe its making me even more cranky.   Onward to 2024.     

 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

39 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I mean July 22nd. There are FA Oline out there that are better than what we have and can help us win. It's Rons last year as HC and the rest of his dinosaurs in the FO will be out as well.

 

If he doesn't, I assume it's because of draft position, because everyone can see our Oline is crap and will absolute be a problem at best this year.

 

Harris is already looking into who will be his GM next year. Let's not kid ourselves. We're fighting to not be the 4rth best team in the East this year.

 

Yeah that's how I see it.

 

To me from Harris point of view, IMO its an odd place.

 

A.  This isn't an ordinary season.  They can get fans back.  I think the difference between a playoff season and another same old same old season is night and day as to sustaining momentum with the fan base. 

 

B.  They genuinely IMO can be really good if they just spent more resources at fixing the O line.

 

Having said that, it might not be the end of the world if the season falls apart if that results in a higher draft pick.  The excitement with the fan base would be ironically about firing Ron and the FO.  A bad season would make the fan base feel good that we will be in better hands with him gone.

 

I think though the results will be somewhere in the middle.   Ups and downs.  Like the other seasons. We end up picking around 16.  

Edited July 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

I'm not super optmistic about the OL either, but I do like Bieneimy and the combo of him, a mobile QB like Howell, and talented skill players can help alleviate things somewhat. We'll see more rollouts, effective screens, quick passes(slants etc.) until the OL starts to mesh and Howell picks up more of the offense and then we'll see aerial bombardments.

[zCommander]

33 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I mean July 22nd. There are FA Oline out there that are better than what we have and can help us win. It's Rons last year as HC and the rest of his dinosaurs in the FO will be out as well.

 

If he doesn't, I assume it's because of draft position, because everyone can see our Oline is crap and will absolute be a problem at best this year.

 

Harris is already looking into who will be his GM next year. Let's not kid ourselves. We're fighting to not be the 4rth best team in the East this year.

 

I am hoping he opens the wallet before training camp. Really want to see Howell succeed with a decent OL. I like Ron some, but if Harris sees his not a fit for what he wants to do so be it. 

[88Comrade2000]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

There is no reason to think this line will be better and I don't understand why anyone would think it will be. We released our best player due to injury concerns and replaced him with worse player with injury concerns. Gates is not a better center than Larson. Wylie not a better tackle than Lucas either. When Cosmi goes down and Wylie slides over to guard it might help. 

 

I hope Harris comes in and forces Rons hand to go get better players.

What players can we get to be better this season ?-

39 minutes ago, MartinC said:

It’s quite possible the 4th best team in the NFC East gets a wild card spot this season. But I agree with your position overall. 

Nah. Last year was a better chance and we choked.

 

I think the east only sends 2 teams this year .

[Koolblue13]

1 minute ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Yeah that's how I see it.

 

To me from Harris point of view, IMO its an odd place.

 

A.  This isn't an ordinary season.  They can get fans back.  I think the difference between a playoff season and another same old same old season is night and day as to sustaining momentum with the fan base. 

 

B.  They genuinely IMO can be really good if they just spent more resources at fixing the O line.

 

Having said that, it might not be the end of the world if the season falls apart if that results in a higher draft pick.  The excitment with the fan base would be ironically about firing Ron and the FO.  A bad season would make the fan base feel good that we will be in better hands with him gone.

 

I think though the results will be somewhere in the middle.   Ups and downs.  Like the other seasons. We end up picking around 16.  

I think that I'm so excited about this season, more than I have been about any since Gibbs II. I think our defense could really be special, even though we don't have that special pass rusher type like the Eagles and Cowboys. I think Howell will be really exciting. Explosive plays and head bangers constantly. I don't think EB is going to be a good #1 for an offense, but he's got monster balls and a ton to prove to the league so that'll be fun.

 

I think our two largest holes are the missing pass rusher and the Oline. That's going to lead to missed opportunities on defense and infuriating frustration on offense.

 

Same as last year, except with a QB that isn't a coward with a noodle sling.

 

I'm excited about our weapons on both sides.and how fun they'll be to watch grow together. It'll be fun.

 

I also think that we'll be around 2-6 by the trade deadline and if Harris brings in any kind of FO adviser type, we could see some fireworks with the roster.

 

If Harris plays it like he did with the 76ers, I expect a big youth infusion and heavy weight on the importance of the draft.

4 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

What players can we get to be better this season ?-

Nah. Last year was a better chance and we choked.

 

I think the east only sends 2 teams this year .

I think the Giants take the East, so that puts 3 teams in the playoffs.

 

We choked last year, because our antique HC stayed with Heinicke and Turner at the bye, instead of taking playcalling over and putting Howell in.

 

That happens and we make the playoffs last year.

[Koolblue13]

Lewan, Risner, Roullier are available FAs that are starters on our team.

[MartinC]

43 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Lewan, Risner, Roullier are available FAs that are starters on our team.

I remain confused as to why Risner has not been signed by someone by now.

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, MartinC said:

I remain confused as to why Risner has not been signed by someone by now.

These guys will all be on rosters by training camp. 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, Koolblue13 said:

I think that I'm so excited about this season, more than I have been about any since Gibbs II. I think our defense could really be special, even though we don't have that special pass rusher type like the Eagles and Cowboys. I think Howell will be really exciting. Explosive plays and head bangers constantly. I don't think EB is going to be a good #1 for an offense, but he's got monster balls and a ton to prove to the league so that'll be fun.

 

I think our two largest holes are the missing pass rusher and the Oline. That's going to lead to missed opportunities on defense and infuriating frustration on offense.

 

Same as last year, except with a QB that isn't a coward with a noodle sling.

 

I'm excited about our weapons on both sides.and how fun they'll be to watch grow together. It'll be fun.

 

I also think that we'll be around 2-6 by the trade deadline and if Harris brings in any kind of FO adviser type, we could see some fireworks with the roster.

 

 

The defense should be fire.  Agree we are missing the pass rushing LB type.  

 

I think Dotson emerges as a star.  I am high on Cole Turner if he can stay healthy.

 

I like Howell's potential.  I like the RBs.

 

Switching sports, in one sense it reminds my of favorite team aside from this one -- Liverpool.  There was a lot of talk that they needed to fix their midfield last off season.  They ended up doing just about nothing and let it ride.  The midfield indeed sucked and the season was dissappointing at least by their standards.  Now all hands are on deck to fix the midfield -- they signed two big players and are chasing a third.

 

I suspect next off season its all hands on deck to fix the O line and they go to town on it.  If they do that, the rest of the roster is more than ready to win.

 

I do think the O line will like last year make the RBs look like lesser talents than they are.    As PFF likes to say, O line blocking is critical to the run game and this team by their metrics has one of the worst run blocking units.  And the O line will likely limit Howell's ceiling this season.  But I do expect this to be fixed next off season. 

Edited July 5, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

7 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The defense should be fire.  Agree we are missing the pass rushing LB type.  

 

I think Dotson emerges as a star.  I am high on Cole Turner if he can stay healthy.

 

I like Howell's potential.  I like the RBs.

 

Switching sports, in one sense it reminds my of favorite team aside from this one -- Liverpool.  There was a lot of talk that they needed to fix their midfield last off season.  They ended up doing just about nothing and let it ride.  The midfield indeed sucked and the season was dissappointing at least by their standards.  Now all hands are on deck to fix the midfield -- they signed two big players and are chasing a third.

 

I suspect next off season its all hands on deck to fix the O line and they go to town on it.  If they do that, the rest of the roster is more than ready to win.

 

I do think the O line will like last year make the RBs look like lesser talents than they are.    As PFF likes to say, O line blocking is critical to the run game and this team by their metrics has one of the worst run blocking units.  And the O line will likely limit Howell's ceiling this season.  But I do expect this to be fixed next off season. 

Yeah, we agree that we have a pretty stacked roster, with a couple giant holes. We haven't proven to develop young Oline, so our pipeline isn't thrilling either. I don't think it's an issue that can be fixed in one offseason. Strom and Daniels might have a shot in a couple years, Paul might surprise, Cosmi get healthy. Who knows.

 

I'd look into Risner, but I'd definitely bring back Roullier. I don't know if Leno or Lewan can play on the right side, but if he's healed from his ACL, that's a huge upgrade for a team with one average starter at tackle.

[Skinsinparadise]

PFF

 

Projected win totals for all 32 NFL teams: Bengals on track for 11-plus wins, Ravens a good bet to go under 9.5 wins

 

https://www.pff.com/news/bet-projected-win-totals-for-all-32-nfl-teams

Last updated: Wednesday, July 5

WIN PROJECTIONS, PER PFF'S SIMULATION

 

Team	Simulated Win Total	DK Win Total	Over Price	Under Price	Draft Position
Cincinnati Bengals	11.36	11.5	+110	-130	32
Kansas City Chiefs	11.17	11.5	-140	+120	30
Philadelphia Eagles	10.37	11.5	-110	-110	31
San Francisco 49ers	10.31	10.5	-145	+125	29
Buffalo Bills	10.22	10.5	-150	+130	28
New Orleans Saints	9.36	9.5	+105	-125	27
Dallas Cowboys	9.24	9.5	-165	+140	26
Pittsburgh Steelers	9.19	8.5	-155	+135	25
Jacksonville Jaguars	9.09	9.5	-150	+130	24
Minnesota Vikings	8.89	8.5	-130	+110	23
Detroit Lions	8.79	9.5	-120	+100	22
New York Jets	8.71	9.5	-130	+110	21
Los Angeles Chargers	8.69	9.5	-115	-105	20
Miami Dolphins	8.68	9.5	+100	-120	19
Baltimore Ravens	8.57	9.5	-170	+150	18
Tennessee Titans	8.56	7.5	+110	-130	17
Carolina Panthers	8.24	7.5	-120	100	16
New England Patriots	8.17	7.5	+100	-120	15
Las Vegas Raiders	8.07	7.5	+160	-190	14
Atlanta Falcons	8.03	8.5	-120	+100	13
Denver Broncos	7.98	8.5	-110	-110	12
Cleveland Browns	7.96	9.5	+115	-135	11
Los Angeles Rams	7.95	6.5	-105	-115	10
Seattle Seahawks	7.93	8.5	-175	+150	9
Indianapolis Colts	7.77	6.5	-135	+115	8
New York Giants	7.73	7.5	+100	-120	7
Green Bay Packers	7.63	7.5	-110	-110	6
Tampa Bay Buccaneers	7.40	6.5	+120	-140	5
Washington Commanders	7.17	6.5	+100	-120	4
Chicago Bears	6.80	7.5	-130	+110	3
Arizona Cardinals	6.03	4.5	+100	-120	2
Houston Texans	5.93	6.5	+110	-130	1

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

Glad to see everyone covering a lot of new ground in here today. 😆

 

Love you guys. See y’all for TC. Feel better @Skinsinparadise!!

[ANONYMOUS SOURCE.]

2 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

Lewan, Risner, Roullier are available FAs that are starters on our team.

Looks like Roullier retired earlier today so that’s one gone 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 minutes ago, ANONYMOUS SOURCE. said:

Looks like Roullier retired earlier today so that’s one gone 

 

Keim months ago mentioned retirement was a possibility

 

 

 

[philibusters]

2 hours ago, MartinC said:

I remain confused as to why Risner has not been signed by someone by now.

 

Probably he wants a long term deal that nobody is willing to give him.  If he doesn't get the long term offer he wants, he probably just take the best one year offer he gets.

[philibusters]

Ben Jones is out there too.  If you are willing to play Nick Gates at LG, which we may not want to do, Jones would be a very experienced Center.

[Koolblue13]

23 minutes ago, ANONYMOUS SOURCE. said:

Looks like Roullier retired earlier today so that’s one gone 

No kidding. Oh well.

[Commander Chaaarmnder]

3 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

These guys will all be on rosters by training camp. 

Not

Roullier, off to greener pastures