Welcome to the Commanders Emmanuel Forbes CB Mississippi State

[bowhunter]

54 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I used to run 100.  I was really good at short distance.   I don't know about 10-15 lower body mass helping his burst.   When I sprint my calves and ankles give me that initial push.   I don't think having more weight helps.  Then its just you ability to move your legs quickly -- twichiness.  It helps that i have long legs and a short torso.

 

It's not that easy at least it wasn't for me and some of my frends to fully control where the weight is going when we'd put weight on even if we were doing it with a muscle emphasis. 

 

I was thinking more of the builds/body types of Sprinters vs distance runners. While it is true that slow/fast muscle twitch contribute a lot to what type of sport fits us best. But world class sprinters do not seem to be hindered by having some serious quads either. Very few are as skinny as Forbes. I was a competitive powerlifter back on my day, so I have a limited knowledge base of the ability to add mass in certain regions.  Granted, genetics are hard to overcome. Like you, my glory days are far behind me. Although I do go to the gym on occasion, most of my limited athletic prowess is now limited to farm work and dragging bucks. My training table often involves a beer and cigarette at the end of the day lol

 

I was joking about the staff having a trainer on board.

[Conn]

1 hour ago, bowhunter said:

I was thinking more of the builds/body types of Sprinters vs distance runners. While it is true that slow/fast muscle twitch contribute a lot to what type of sport fits us best. But world class sprinters do not seem to be hindered by having some serious quads either. Very few are as skinny as Forbes. I was a competitive powerlifter back on my day, so I have a limited knowledge base of the ability to add mass in certain regions.  Granted, genetics are hard to overcome. Like you, my glory days are far behind me. Although I do go to the gym on occasion, most of my limited athletic prowess is now limited to farm work and dragging bucks. My training table often involves a beer and cigarette at the end of the day lol

 

I was joking about the staff having a trainer on board.

A lot of what you’re seeing is survivorship bias. The guys you’re seeing are studs who got where they are with the bodies they have. They already survived the gauntlet and came out the other side top sprinters. You didn’t see all the dudes who sucked with that body type lol. Forbes got where he is being skinny as ****. It’s not whatsoever a given that he can transform his entire body, and even if he did, it’s not a given that he could maintain the speed and fluidity that make him what he is. Looking at his build and his legs, I highly doubt he can pack on much weight in his legs. He’ll fill out, gain an NFL body—but if the dude was gonna develop monster calves and quads he would have. He’s not a college freshman with a growth spurt still to come, he’s essentially a grown man who can tweak what he’s got. He is skinny in the way that Devonta Smith is. If he’s going to be special, he’s going to have to figure out a way to do it as a scrawny beanpole with a little more meat added on. 

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Warhead36]

Again why does Ron have to say this stuff publicly. Just say something like "Manny's given us some great snaps and gets better every week and we like where he's at." 

[Koolblue13]

8 hours ago, Warhead36 said:

Again why does Ron have to say this stuff publicly. Just say something like "Manny's given us some great snaps and gets better every week and we like where he's at." 

Rickety Riverboats gaffes might be the most enjoyable part of the season.  

[DWinzit]

25 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Rickety Riverboats gaffes might be the most enjoyable part of the season.  

We get new ones every week. As the season plays out a book could be written with a compilation of all of them.

[zCommander]

 

[Redwards]

3 hours ago, DWinzit said:

We get new ones every week. As the season plays out a book could be written with a compilation of all of them.

I'd buy that book!  Put it alongside my Gary Larsen collection.   😛

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

 

I saw that but wonder where that's from?

 

PFF has Forbes with a 48.7 grade.  Ranked 134th among players in the secondary.  According to their metrics, teams are completing 75% of their passes against him, with a 82 QB rating.  And I know at least on one of their metrics another outfit agreed with their stats about Forbes from the last game because I posted that here. 

 

The PFF stuff and the other outfit (forgetting what that was maybe ESPN) seems to jive more with the narratives.  Cooley calling Forbes out on some plays.  Him only getting 40% of the snaps last week and Keim saying they see him right now as their third best corner and not a starter yet.   Ditto Gonzalez getting praise non-stop including from Belichick comparing him to Gilmore.  And Belichick is usually stingy with the praise.  And even Tyreek Hill went out of his way to praise his play against him.

 

 

 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, zCommander said:

 

 

PFF scores for those CBs.

 

1. Gonzlaez 84.4

2. Branch 74.2

3. Izien 68.1

4. Witherspoon 65.7

5. Forbes 48.7

 

Not saying the PFF is the be all and end all.  But they seem to fit much closer to the word of mouth then the site (forgetting which) that keeps having Forbes killing it and Gonzlaez having a bad season.

 

If Forbes is killing it, i'd presume he'd be getting more than 40% of the snaps and Keim wouldn't be saying things like he's not considered right now a starter and Rivera wouldn't be as measured in his comments about him. 

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[srtman04]

Why the **** did our FO/coaches pick this guy over Gonzalez again?   So far, this is shaping up to be an epic failure on gigantic proportions......

[Chris 44]

22 minutes ago, srtman04 said:

Why the **** did our FO/coaches pick this guy over Gonzalez again?   So far, this is shaping up to be an epic failure on gigantic proportions......

The entire 2023 draft isn't looking so hot, best of the bunch might be Rodriguez (unless Stromberg ends up starting by end of the season).

[Skinsinparadise]

 

 

[Warhead36]

I think Forbes will end up being a good player, but Gonzalez looks like an absolute stud.

 

We effed up. Period.

[skinny21]

Just now, Warhead36 said:

I think Forbes will end up being a good player, but Gonzalez looks like an absolute stud.

 

We effed up. Period.

Still early, but yeah, if you avoid the general consensus pick, you’re gonna look extra dumb if that pick works out a lot better than the one you bypassed him for.

[Warhead36]

1 minute ago, skinny21 said:

Still early, but yeah, if you avoid the general consensus pick, you’re gonna look extra dumb if that pick works out a lot better than the one you bypassed him for.

Typically the star players are great right away, and continue to get better. There are always exceptions of course, but right now Gonzalez looks like he's gonna be a perennial all pro lockdown CB. Forbes might make a couple Pro Bowls best case scenario in years where he racks up a bunch of picks but that's it.

[bowhunter]

23 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

I think Forbes will end up being a good player, but Gonzalez looks like an absolute stud.

 

We effed up. Period.

That's not how I remember things going down on the draft thread. Gonzo was dropping fast, many posters saying teams had a few red flags on him. I didn't have an opinion on either one, but I remember that seemed to be the buzz

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

41 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Data collection like this is always a bit inaccurate. This particular source is probably from SportRadar which Pro Football Reference uses for their advanced defensive stats. Nobody is going to know exactly what should have happened on a play. Who blew the coverage? Who was coached to do what? Maybe the players did what they were coached to do, but the opposing playcall was just perfect at putting each defender in assignment conflict.

 

One thing I've noticed in random stats posted to twitter for Gonzalez and Forbes, is that each data collection firm has wildly different stats for them. There's a lot of confusion for who is ultimately responsible for what target or catch. I kind of like that Pass Blocking chart that comes out every week that tries to combine PFF, SIS, and ESPN stats into one unified ranking for an attempt at a consensus. Averaging out all the data seems like a pretty fair way of doing things when there's so much conflict between each source.

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

Data collection like this is always a bit inaccurate. This particular source is probably from SportRadar which Pro Football Reference uses for their advanced defensive stats. Nobody is going to know exactly what should have happened on a play. Who blew the coverage? Who was coached to do what? Maybe the players did what they were coached to do, but the opposing playcall was just perfect at putting each defender in assignment conflict.

 

One thing I've noticed in random stats posted to twitter for Gonzalez and Forbes, is that each data collection firm has wildly different stats for them. There's a lot of confusion for who is ultimately responsible for what target or catch. I kind of like that Pass Blocking chart that comes out every week that tries to combine PFF, SIS, and ESPN stats into one unified ranking for an attempt at a consensus. Averaging out all the data seems like a pretty fair way of doing things when there's so much conflict between each source.

 

Splitting the difference meaning Forbes has been just as good as Gonzalez?

 

The PFF narratives and I gather the other is ESPN seem to match the narratives about both players thus far not PFR. 

 

If Pro Football Reference is killing it on stats, why do teams even bother subscribing to PFF?  

 

 

 

39 minutes ago, bowhunter said:

That's not how I remember things going down on the draft thread. Gonzo was dropping fast, many posters saying teams had a few red flags on him. I didn't have an opinion on either one, but I remember that seemed to be the buzz

 

Plenty on the draft thread me included pushed for Gonzalez when he dropped.  Heck I remember my quote on that thread at the time -- if they don't take Gonzalez I'll have a stroke.  Then when we took Forbes some asked me if I was OK.  😎   

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]

I just looked at Pro Football References Stats.  If they are right and the stats are meaningful than Ron Rivera and Del Rio are some of the biggest buffoons in the NFL.  In their defense I don't think they are but PFR has some odd stuff. 

 

A.  According to Keim, this team sees Forbes as a work in progress and is right now their third best corner and not a starter just yet.  Well, according to PFR this regime are idiots for thinking that considering according to their stats St. Juste has been beaten like a drum.  QBs have almost a 100 QB rating against St. Juste and are completing 73% of their passes.  Shouldn't St. Juste not Forbes be the dude on the bench, then?

 

B.  According to Keim, Forbes hasn't been good against the run.  I gather as always he got that from the team.  PFF has shown him also being awful against the run.  But no worries, PFR, has Forbes with 0 missed tackles.  Nada.  Nothing.   If you want missed tackles don't look at Forbes, look at just about everyone else in the secondary

 

C.  Curl based on their stats is atrocious in coverage.  i know based on past numbers from PFR they considered Curl somewhere between bad and atrocious for most of his career with 2 out of his three seasons with an AV of 4.  Apparently according to PFR his atrocious play continues. 

 

D.  As great of a season Fuller is having according to various narratives and stats.  Apparently according to PFR its not as good as Forbes.   So if Forbes  -- their best cover guy according to PFR and is no liability against the run -- wouldn't Rivera and Del Rio have to be fools with giving him 40% of the reps and he's  not right now a starter? 

 

I'll give PFR they really really love Forbes across the board and its funny how low they think of some others on this roster.  But i've never been much of a fan of their generalizations of players.  I do like to look at some of their stats though.    If I really did buy into their stats -- I'd think Belichick and Tryeek Hill among others are clowns for touting Gonzalez and Rivera-Del-Rio would be the biggest clowns for not starting a stud corner and instead starting one train wreck of a CB and another who is good but apparently is no Forbes

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Rogue Jedi]

If going by just 3 games so far, it seems some of you are basically saying Gonzales ceiling is Darrelle Revis and Forbes' ceiling is DeAngelo Hall.

 

By what I've seen, that's actually not far off.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Splitting the difference meaning Forbes has been just as good as Gonzalez?

 

I'm not sure what this is in reference to.

 

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

The PFF narratives and I gather the other is ESPN seem to match the narratives about both players thus far not PFR. 

 

If Pro Football Reference is killing it on stats, why do teams even bother subscribing to PFF?  

 

I would bet teams subscribe to multiple data collection outfits as a means to lower costs and avoid doing it in-house.

 

I don't believe PFR does narratives? It's a mostly publicly accessible database. I'm not sure where the conversation is going here...

 

33 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

Plenty on the draft thread me included pushed for Gonzalez when he dropped.  Heck I remember my quote on that thread at the time -- if they don't take Gonzalez I'll have a stroke.  Then when we took Forbes some asked me if I was OK.  😎   

 

Forbes had an asterisk for me and not really rankable. Gonzalez was still #3 on my board and a half tier below the top 2 guys. For reference, Porter was my #1.

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

 

I'm not sure what this is in reference to.

 

 

I would bet teams subscribe to multiple data collection outfits as a means to lower costs and avoid doing it in-house.

 

I don't believe PFR does narratives? It's a mostly publicly accessible database. I'm not sure where the conversation is going here...

 

 

Forbes had an asterisk for me and not really rankable. Gonzalez was still #3 on my board and a half tier below the top 2 guys. For reference, Porter was my #1.

 

There was a debate here about Gonzalez versus Forbes.  The narrative is Gonzalez has looked elite and Forbes not so much yet.  There were some numbers that showed the same.  Tyreek Hill went out of his way to complement Gonzalez's play.  Belichick compared him to Gilmore and raved. 

 

You posted here a few days back numbers that show lets not get ahead of ourselves with this Forbes-Gonzalez narrative, showing Forbes has the better numbers.

 

Today someone else posted basically the same ones.

 

Nick from PFF disputed the QB ratings from that tweet that showed Forbes QB ratings numbers are the best among these rookies.  That same tweet showed Gonzlaez's numbers hasn't been that hot.  Basically it was a variation of the same tweet you posted days back.

 

You responded by saying split the difference between PFF-ESPN versus PFR.  If we did wouldn't that create a narrative that Forbes and Gonzalez have been equals.  PFF shows Gonzalez by a mile has been better than Forbes.  PFR shows that Forbes has been a mile better than Gonzalez.  If we are splitting the difference wouldn't that mean that they played about the same so far?

 

I recall you loved Porter.  I liked Porter didn't love him.   I argued for Gonzalez over Porter because of his ball skills.  I think I had Porter #5 if I recall.  

Edited September 28, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

On 4/27/2023 at 8:57 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

I’d be surprised but guessing Gonzalez goes soon 

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:02 PM, KDawg said:

Gonna be Gonzo, thinking about it. The Raiders secondary is awful.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:06 PM, JamesMadisonSkins said:

My guess for the next few picks ...

 

Atlanta - Bijan

Chicago - Skoronski

Philly - Carter

Tennesse - Levis

Detroit - Gonzalez

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:14 PM, Spaceman Spiff said:

I want to see @KDawg take @Voice_of_Reasonto the draft as his little brother one year to announce a pick.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:15 PM, Riggo#44 said:

Guessing Gonzalez doesn't get past Philly. Dammit.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:22 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

Eagles take Jordan Davis last year Carter this year and already have the best D line in the league 

 

Dont they understand they should draft for need ? 😁

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:30 PM, KDawg said:

I didn’t even have Carter on my draft board, tbh. Character matters. Yes, I missed on Parsons because I removed him for character concerns. But I wouldn’t take Carter.

 

Looking at him look allegedly high as **** there reinforces that. If he can survive the NFL the Eagles DTs are the best in the League. Or at least among them. But I don’t know if he will.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:30 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

If Gonzalez or Skoronski end up at 16 am cool with not trading back but I probably still prefer a trade back if they can get a haul 

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:30 PM, Warhead36 said:

I think Lions take Gonzalez here. Would be great value. I had them taking him with their original pick. Being able to trade down and still get him would be a great move.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:31 PM, mhd24 said:

I figure the next picks are:

11). Tenn-Levis

12). Det-Gonzalez

13). GB-JSN

14). NE-B. Jones

15). NYJ-Kinkaid

16). Was-Skoronski

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:31 PM, markmills67 said:

O'cyrus Torrence is our pick in my opinion. 

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:32 PM, clskinsfan said:

Yean. But on draft night Hayensworths eyes didnt look like ****ing snow globes.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:37 PM, mhd24 said:

Does Gonzales make it to us?  I figure GB takes JSN, NE takes B. Jones, NYJ takes maybe TE, and we take Gonzalez.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:41 PM, JamesMadisonSkins said:

 

Blue chip? Gonzalez and Broderick Jones probably ...

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:42 PM, AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy said:

If Gonzalez is there I’m not trying to trade out. He’s a stud.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:42 PM, Warhead36 said:

I'd pass on Gonzalez. I don't trust our track record with injured guys.

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:42 PM, KDawg said:

Three edges (Smith, Van Ness, Murphy)

 

Gonzo.

 

Branch. 

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:46 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

Gonzalez  my top one right now

 

Then Branch, Kincaid

 

Then Harrison, Broderick Jones 

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:47 PM, Koolblue13 said:

Nolan Smith is so close

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:48 PM, Skinsinparadise said:

If they took Forbes over Gonzales I’ll have a stroke 

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:48 PM, bowhunter said:

Gonzo, B. Jones or Kincaid will be there for us. I'm hoping B. Jones

 

On 4/27/2023 at 9:49 PM, KDawg said:

Even with the injury, I agree. I wouldn’t take either if the injury is real and it looks like it is. But Forbes over even an injured Gonzo is… a move.

 

[KDawg]

Gonzo is a better corner than Forbes. Forbes is a better ballhawk. Gonzo isn’t bad there, though.

 

Wr made some interesting moves.