It All Starts With Identity

[Stone Cold]

Go back over the years, all the way back to our last Super Bowl win.  We have tried coaches, free agents, retread qbs, qbs that were not good from jump, front office change and even the return of Joe Gibbs to establish an identity.  Someone, anyone that could come in and we could say “that’s redskins/WFT/commanders football.”  Thing is….we have had no identity for 30 years.  Then…something changed a few years ago.

 

For Starters…insert having draft picks and actually hitting on them.  

We slowly transitioned from being a team perpetually “close”, lol, that made horrible impulse roster decisions; using draft picks as trade bait for other teams garbage, getting middling to no result from fas that we acquired; swinging and missing on QB every single time.  All the while, we were plugging in holes with pieces that didn’t fit a puzzle.  We didn’t know that ahead of time bc we didn’t know what our puzzle looked like to begin with.  Then we started drafting.  

Jay couldn’t establish an identity…he was too busy scaring bees with the ol boobie twist.  But what happened while jay was here was this…we started drafting football players.  The nucleus or foundation of our team was drafted.  We hit on mclaurin, Allen, Payne for starters.  Unbeknownst to us, we were too busy sulking with jay as coach, we were slowly building a roster.  

Insert RR and the identity begins to take shape.

Without a true identity and a franchise in perpetual turmoil, RR came in and continued to build on what we had.  Without an established identity, our roster became littered with talented football players that were smart, hard working and versatile.  Take a quick look at our roster and you will see homegrown talent…guys we’ve drafted and developed.  But developed to do what?  What is it we do?  

We run the ball, play defense and don’t turnover the ball more than we take it away.  With that recipe, we have already won super bowls.  With that recipe, we, along with other teams, have proven that it can and does still work in todays nfl.  Now…we’re not close to a finished product.  We have holes.  Most teams do.  But what we’ve done is establish an identity with our own talent.  We now can make informed decisions based on what we do.  In finding our identity, we’ve narrowed a focus on what we actually need to move forward.   

 

I believe in knowing what theyre doing now works, the players have a new level of confidence going in each game.  A confidence knowing that if they do their job, they’ll be in position to win most games.  That’s all you can ask for in the nfl.  So what’s the next step?

 

The obvious answer is QB.  We all know it.  RR knows it.  4 knows it and he won’t run because of it.  Wentz can’t be the answer with the state of our ol.  He just can’t or he’ll be a sack magnet.  A QB that is mobile with the ability to hit on all throws is what we need.  Does this man have to be picked in a certain round?  Do we already have him on the roster in Sam Howell?…I think yea but I don’t want to overly simplify the answer.  

I do know this.  Soon as 4s leverage of knowing the playbook is out the window, RR will be ready to see what this team can really do and 4 will be back to being everyone’s favorite backup.  And that’s awesome because he’s a huge part of our identity.

[zCommander]

Oh great another QB thread disguised as identity. 🙄 

Better yet why didn't you just post this in the QB thread? 😑

[Stone Cold]

3 minutes ago, zCommander said:

Oh great another QB thread disguised as identity. 🙄 

Better yet why didn't you just post this in the QB thread? 😑

I rarely start posts.  There’s enough topics to add substance to.  I gave this topic careful consideration because i think the topic of identity has not been carefully dissected and frankly given its due.  If this isn’t your cup of tea, which it appears to have fallen on deaf ears in the forum regardless, just scroll on past brutha or provide some constructive input.
 

 All that said, I’ve been around football my entire life.  I know what I’m watching when it comes to putting a ball club together.  Im excited about us and what the future holds. I think we have something we can hang our hat on.  Something we can point at and say, this is what we do, now let’s continue building in said direction.  

[duffy]

11 minutes ago, zCommander said:

Oh great another QB thread disguised as identity. 🙄 

Better yet why didn't you just post this in the QB thread? 😑

@zCommanderout here like.... 

 

 

 

[Wyvern]

My concern is what's going to be the ceiling on Washington's team identity ... Is it something like Tennessee with a running game, but with a slightly better defense but maybe lower ceiling at QB and O-Line took take full advantage of a better receiving corps?  Or is it more like the Frank Reich Colts with Wentz at QB, relying on a great Taylor running game, but with O-Line and defenses not being able to control the game enough for playoff level contention?

 

Right now, some people are starting to believe more in a ground- control game-managing style of offense, whose low scoring is backed up by great defensive play.  But IMHO, the NFL still seems hell-bent on fostering games with offensive fireworks driven by megastar QB play and superstar WR performances, in order to attract better ratings. 

 

So I think we're still going to see the flashy teams like the Chiefs, Bills, Dolphins, etc in the final rounds of playoffs rather than teams like the Titans, Giants or Washington with more conservative "old-school' identities.  And no doubt the next round of NFL rule changes will continue to favor offensive fireworks, which will make having a dominating defense even more difficult to obtain.

 

Sorry, I think in the upcoming years, its going to be even more about the QB ....if a team wants a playoff winning team identity.

Edited December 8, 2022 by Wyvern

[88Comrade2000]

Identity smedentity.  Whatever we are for this year is this year and maybe next year.  The new owner’s people will dictate what our long term

identity will be.

[duffy]

I identify as a Washington Redskins fan. 

[TheBlueIndian]

10 hours ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

Identity smedentity.  Whatever we are for this year is this year and maybe next year.  The new owner’s people will dictate what our long term

identity will be.

You might be right on this, but I would hedge on the side of the new owner having enough business acumen to understand that things around here are trending upward. 

 

To blow it up right away would be Snyderish hubris.  

[Redwards]

11 hours ago, Wyvern said:

My concern is what's going to be the ceiling on Washington's team identity ... Is it something like Tennessee with a running game, but with a slightly better defense but maybe lower ceiling at QB and O-Line took take full advantage of a better receiving corps?  Or is it more like the Frank Reich Colts with Wentz at QB, relying on a great Taylor running game, but with O-Line and defenses not being able to control the game enough for playoff level contention?

 

Right now, some people are starting to believe more in a ground- control game-managing style of offense, whose low scoring is backed up by great defensive play.  But IMHO, the NFL still seems hell-bent on fostering games with offensive fireworks driven by megastar QB play and superstar WR performances, in order to attract better ratings. 

 

So I think we're still going to see the flashy teams like the Chiefs, Bills, Dolphins, etc in the final rounds of playoffs rather than teams like the Titans, Giants or Washington with more conservative "old-school' identities.  And no doubt the next round of NFL rule changes will continue to favor offensive fireworks, which will make having a dominating defense even more difficult to obtain.

 

Sorry, I think in the upcoming years, its going to be even more about the QB ....if a team wants a playoff winning team identity.

I agree 100%.

 

Washington is now running the ball as its focal point because of the QB fiasco we have going on.  We're extremely limited at QB.  It doesn't take an offensive genius to understand that Turner has (once again) under TH, turned us into a run-first team - not because of some epiphany that this brand of football can actually lead to big things post-season - because TH simply doesn't have the arm talent (and never will) necessary to be "the answer" at the position.  That's not a dig in any way, shape or form on TH, it's just the truth.

 

We've been down this road before with Ron.  He can't for the life of him get his teams to start the season strong, and then needs a run of wins later on to start to even things out.  By his own admission this offseason, you simply cannot be doing that on a routine basis and expect exemplary results.   Ron's teams have a ceiling of being mediocre or just above mediocre.  Fringe playoff teams. Mid-round Mavens.  Not good enough to truly be a threat to the better teams in the league and not bad enough to be picking high enough to get a blue-chip prospect at QB that can finally be the answer we need.

 

I'm basically yawning my way through this season because it's as old hat as it gets.  Been here.  Seen this a bunch of times over the last 30 years.  Our ceiling is very, very low.  A lot of fans get excited about what's happened this season (and that's awesome - good for them!) but in the big picture, the needle really hasn't moved much.  We're no closer to a SB than we were three years ago and we don't have any answer at QB on the horizon.  Our best players are getting older.   I'm hoping our new owner will actually want to draft a young guy HIGH in the draft and build a team around him instead of doing things ass backwards like Ron has.  Ron's given this team the most narrow path to sustained success that there is.  I'd be shocked with what he's done if he'd sacrifice a few years of the careers of guys like Jon Allen and Terry Mac in order to get a young stud prospect up to speed.  It's veteran or nothing for Ron now.  And you need a borderline miracle for that plan to work.  

[mistertim]

7 hours ago, duffy said:

I identify as a Washington Redskins fan. 

 

Were you born that way or did you transition? 

[88Comrade2000]

4 hours ago, TheBlueIndian said:

You might be right on this, but I would hedge on the side of the new owner having enough business acumen to understand that things around here are trending upward. 

 

To blow it up right away would be Snyderish hubris.  

They don’t have to blow things up but the first thing the new owner will do is hire a Gm. If it happens early enough, that Gm could be running the 23 draft.  Otherwise it will be after the draft. The GM will dictate the direction of the franchise and Ron’s future beyond 23.

 

So, that long term identity will be decided but what the Gm does.

[@DCGoldPants]

19 hours ago, Stone Cold said:

Go back over the years, all the way back to our....

 

Can you make your font bigger? I'm having trouble reading it on my Jitterbug phone.

 

Even thought the post wasn't really about identity. That's Doc Walker vague talk. 

 

 

We can't have a great a QB situation without a dominate OL, but we can't have great OL until we have better people picking and developing those players. But we can't have that without....... and that's why we need a great QB situation. 

 

Edited December 8, 2022 by @DCGoldPants

[wit33]

 

20 hours ago, Wyvern said:

My concern is what's going to be the ceiling on Washington's team identity ... Is it something like Tennessee with a running game, but with a slightly better defense but maybe lower ceiling at QB and O-Line took take full advantage of a better receiving corps?  Or is it more like the Frank Reich Colts with Wentz at QB, relying on a great Taylor running game, but with O-Line and defenses not being able to control the game enough for playoff level contention?

 

Simple, don’t pay overpay the middling QB and it allows you to keep your talent like AJ Brown. This is where all these teams have and continue to go wrong, over paying for competence. My belief is soon this is going to change and the middling QB will become less entitled and more grateful for the opportunity to be a franchise QB. 
 

Not paying premium dollars allows the team to continue to hunt for the elite QB, which every fan can agree is the best lottery ticket to win the SB.

 

20 hours ago, Wyvern said:

 

Right now, some people are starting to believe more in a ground- control game-managing style of offense, whose low scoring is backed up by great defensive play.  But IMHO, the NFL still seems hell-bent on fostering games with offensive fireworks driven by megastar QB play and superstar WR performances, in order to attract better ratings. 
 

 

Probably some truth here, no way game isn’t flag football in 50 years, right?
 

Where I disagree with the masses is that the lack of credit the ground and pound offense gets for the cool defensive numbers the defense gets to stick their chests out about. With the current style of play the Washington defense allowing more than 21 points or so is a below average day if combined with the offense possessing the ball at a near league leading high. 
 

Patrick Mahomes will never have a top ranked statistical defense. 

 

20 hours ago, Wyvern said:

 

So I think we're still going to see the flashy teams like the Chiefs, Bills, Dolphins, etc in the final rounds of playoffs rather than teams like the Titans, Giants or Washington with more conservative "old-school' identities.  And no doubt the next round of NFL rule changes will continue to favor offensive fireworks, which will make having a dominating defense even more difficult to obtain.

 

Sorry, I think in the upcoming years, it’s going to be even more about the QB ....if a team wants a playoff winning team identity.

No doubt the elite QB projects to provide most at bats in the playoffs and stronger chance to win a SB. I believe or maybe want to believe more outliers are in the future as teams begin to realize overpaying the average QB is a competitive disadvantage. 

[Wyvern]

Redward and Wit33 -- thank you for your quality comments on my post. I really appreciate them as great food for thought.

 

FYI -- I'd like to see conditions where it's a level playing field for all types of team identity.  Personally, I really enjoyed those hard-fought defensive games of the past.

 

Frankly, I'd like to see another Super Bowl where a team with a great defense and conservative offense Is able to trounce the team used to getting into the playoffs with a high-flying offense fueled by their megastar QB play, their superstar WR, and the ref calls in favor of the offense.

 

Because, from  what I see,  in 2021-2022, the rules are increasingly tilted in favor of the offense, and most games come down to more about whose offense gets to score last (usually assisted by some controversial pass interference penalty or personal foul against the QB)

 

Moreover, I'm concerned with the trend within the rules committee to further empower the QB with protections when he takes off running.  I keep remembering how Pickett used that "new mind-set" to juke some DBs into not tackling him, by fake sliding!  Heck, in the 90's, Pickett would have been smashed.  Are we getting to the point where a DB's finger better not even graze the QB's helmet?  And now they're discussing instant replay on ref calls that might have been missed?  ....SMH

 

Okay, I allowed myself some hyperbole, I know -- but I can't help but note how media ratings are really changing the NFL game, and worry that some of the previously sound approaches to a team identity might be undercut by where the NFL seem to want to take their football product.

Edited December 9, 2022 by Wyvern

[Riggo-toni]

What on earth does an obscure John Cusack movie have to do with football?

[NoCalMike]

The current identity is necessity due to the O-line.  Going into the season the offense we see now is not what the plan was, but things had to get modified.  Once the O-line is fixed (hopefully in the offseason) and the QB position is upgraded, we will see more of what the coaches were intending.  The best part is they can keep much of the running game the way it is, but the passing game will be more dynamic.

[Wyvern]

NoCalMike -- I share the same wishes.  IMHO, any running game /ground control approach needs to be supported by a decently dangerous

 passing threat.  Heinicke's passes weren't all that great in support of what Turner might have planned.  I guess it's live & learn.

[Koolblue13]

I haven't read any of this, but yes. That's exactly right. We need to prioritize our Offensive Line before anything else. Agreed.

 

If that's what this is about.

[Xameil]

[mistertim]

5 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I haven't read any of this, but yes. That's exactly right. We need to prioritize our Offensive Line before anything else. Agreed.

 

If that's what this is about.

 

What are you talking about? You really should read the OP in new threads. This was about spending our 2023 1st rounder on a kicker.

[Wildbunny]

17 hours ago, Riggo-toni said:

What on earth does an obscure John Cusack movie have to do with football?

Wait what? There's bright movies with John Cusack?

[Koolblue13]

10 minutes ago, Wildbunny said:

Wait what? There's bright movies with John Cusack?

Like with Will Smith Bright?

 

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

6 hours ago, Koolblue13 said:

I haven't read any of this, but yes. That's exactly right. We need to prioritize our Offensive Line before anything else. Agreed.

 

If that's what this is about.

Can't disagree with this. Awful quality depth on the O line.

[wit33]

 

8 hours ago, DJHJR86 said:

I think Wentz actually has a decent chance of a career resurgence somewhere, but it's going to have to be similar to Tannehill.  He's going to have to go somewhere as the backup and eventually earn his way back to the starting role.  Derek Carr might be able to do this as well.  I think they are very similar quarterbacks.  I think Rivera is going to do what he did last year: be very aggressive at getting a quarterback.  But I don't necessarily think he has to be.  We have Howell.  There's the draft.  I wouldn't mind taking the "safe" route if there was no QB in the draft that they loved: sign Gardner Minshew & Heinicke, and have them compete with Howell for the starting job in 2023.  I kind of wanted them to trade for Minshew back in 2021 to compete with Heinicke.

 

I’m with you, certainly believe Wentz is a competent QB and if everything is great around him can contribute to a winning team. 
 

His days of making 10 plus percent of the cap are done. Go make 3-5 % and be a financial asset and grateful to an organization. I’m all in for these type of situations, defund dudes who’ve reached consistent levels of competence in their careers that had a down year. The team Wentz goes to next year at $6mil or so is getting tremendous value. 

 

22 hours ago, NoCalMike said:

The current identity is necessity due to the O-line.  Going into the season the offense we see now is not what the plan was, but things had to get modified.  Once the O-line is fixed (hopefully in the offseason) and the QB position is upgraded, we will see more of what the coaches were intending.  The best part is they can keep much of the running game the way it is, but the passing game will be more dynamic.

Do you believe a middling QB can lead a dynamic passing attack that wins in the NFL? I know middling is a general term, how about a guy who’s not elite?

 

 

On 12/8/2022 at 6:37 AM, Redwards said:

I agree 100%.

 

Washington is now running the ball as its focal point because of the QB fiasco we have going on.  We're extremely limited at QB.  It doesn't take an offensive genius to understand that Turner has (once again) under TH, turned us into a run-first team - not because of some epiphany that this brand of football can actually lead to big things post-season - because TH simply doesn't have the arm talent (and never will) necessary to be "the answer" at the position.  That's not a dig in any way, shape or form on TH, it's just the truth.

M

 

Heineke is limited in throwing ability, no doubt about it— but, he may be getting unjustly crucified on these boards due to him being severely limited by the Oline. This isn’t something I picked up on my own, rather Chris Cooley pounded home this point in recent podcast with Sheehan. He shared the offense doesn’t provide many opportunities for Heineke to make throws due to max protecting in key situations. 
 

Cooley and Sheehan remain the best when together. Here’s a link to the interview if you haven’t already caught it yourself:

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-kevin-sheehan-show/id1435515037?i=1000588927359

 

On 12/8/2022 at 6:37 AM, Redwards said:

We've been down this road before with Ron.  He can't for the life of him get his teams to start the season strong, and then needs a run of wins later on to start to even things out.  By his own admission this offseason, you simply cannot be doing that on a routine basis and expect exemplary results.   Ron's teams have a ceiling of being mediocre or just above mediocre.  Fringe playoff teams. Mid-round Mavens.  Not good enough to truly be a threat to the better teams in the league and not bad enough to be picking high enough to get a blue-chip prospect at QB that can finally be the answer we need.

 

This doesn’t feel any different, really? Not saying you’re wrong, one of the most difficult things in all of sports is for an NFL franchise to escape mediocrity, so odds are Washington will revert to the mean. 
 

There are too many young pieces producing and development going behind the starters not to acknowledge. Obviously, QB is a glaring need and on its own is likely to prove you right if applying NFL history. 

 

Edited December 10, 2022 by wit33

[zCommander]

On 12/7/2022 at 7:57 PM, Stone Cold said:

I rarely start posts.  There’s enough topics to add substance to.  I gave this topic careful consideration because i think the topic of identity has not been carefully dissected and frankly given its due.  If this isn’t your cup of tea, which it appears to have fallen on deaf ears in the forum regardless, just scroll on past brutha or provide some constructive input.
 

 All that said, I’ve been around football my entire life.  I know what I’m watching when it comes to putting a ball club together.  Im excited about us and what the future holds. I think we have something we can hang our hat on.  Something we can point at and say, this is what we do, now let’s continue building in said direction.  

 

We did talk about identity...