The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Skinsinparadise]

22 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I still have yet to hear any decent explanation from sports media about how Wentz overall has such good TD:INT ratios (outside of 2020) when, according to them, he's easily one of the worst QBs in the entire NFL. They seem to mostly just ignore it.

 

Agree.  I am not saying this because he's our QB so to speak -- I geniuinely think the Wentz national punchline stuff is one of the nuttier things I've seen in my years following the sport.

 

If they say he's inconsistent -- I get that.  Or he hasn't lived up to his hype -- OK.  But the idea that he's a joke of a QB is nuts.  But as Peter Schrager from Good Morning Football said Wentz is the league's # 1 punch line right now.   and IMO its crazy and just flat out weird.

[mistertim]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  I am not saying this because he's our QB so to speak -- I geniuinely think the Wentz national punchline stuff is one of the nuttier things I've seen in my years following the sport.

 

If they say he's inconsistent -- I get that.  Or he hasn't lived up to his hype -- OK.  But the idea that he's a joke of a QB is nuts.  But as Peter Schrager from Good Morning Football said Wentz is the league's # 1 punch line right now.   and IMO its crazy and just flat out weird.

 

Yeah at this point I think the whole "Carson Wentz is so terrible" thing in sports media is basically a viral meme that they all just repeat as opposed to being based on any real analysis.

 

As you said, it's legit to say he's inconsistent or he has occasional WTF moments, etc. But that's not what's happening.

 

It doesn't even make me angry or anything necessarily. Like you, I just find it absolutely bizarre.

[TheShredder]

1 hour ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah at this point I think the whole "Carson Wentz is so terrible" thing in sports media is basically a viral meme that they all just repeat as opposed to being based on any real analysis.

 

As you said, it's legit to say he's inconsistent or he has occasional WTF moments, etc. But that's not what's happening.

 

It doesn't even make me angry or anything necessarily. Like you, I just find it absolutely bizarre.

It's not that bizarre, owners like Irsay have media teams that propagate false narratives ahead of public perception forecasts to help ease their paying customers resistance to moves like Wentz. They do it in all sports, MLB is notorious for it. It was discussed on Pat McAfee in an interview the other day with former President of the Marlins. Guy admits the lies they perpetuate ahead of the moves owners make:

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Agree.  I am not saying this because he's our QB so to speak -- I geniuinely think the Wentz national punchline stuff is one of the nuttier things I've seen in my years following the sport.

 

If they say he's inconsistent -- I get that.  Or he hasn't lived up to his hype -- OK.  But the idea that he's a joke of a QB is nuts.  But as Peter Schrager from Good Morning Football said Wentz is the league's # 1 punch line right now.   and IMO its crazy and just flat out weird.

1. The Eagles are a respected organization and they got rid of him.  Though, I think there is a lot more to that story than has been told, and I think it was somewhat mutual.  But that doesn't really factor in.  The league loves Lurie and Roseman.  

2. The media bought, hook, line and sinker, the garbage thrown at them by Irsay and Ballard.  The league loves (and I mean LOVES) Ballard, and to some extent Reich.  Irsay has a voice because for 20 years his organization won a lot of games because of Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Bill Polian and Tony Dungy.  People forget that Irsay is a spoiled rich kid, who is impulsive, abusive, and generally a bad person.

3. Wentz went TO the Commanders, and EVERYBODY hates Dan.  

4. And just to nudge the national guys, our local media  guys HATED the trade at the beginning also. There were multiple reasons every single one of them hated it, but they all did.  Some louder than others.   Every one of them went on for days about how terrible the trade was, they brought in all of the Philly and Indy reporters to say how awful it was. 

 

The national guys just took it and ran with it, because it's an easy target, and the local media paved the way. And the national media guys don't follow each story that closely, so when the DC media piled on, they picked up on that, and kept digging.  Also, they were being fed lines by Irsay.  

 

It was a win-win:  Trash Wentz which makes Dan look bad, and that's chum in the water. 

 

Our local media sucks ass.  It was ok, but it's getting worse and worse by the day. The only tolerable talk show host is Galdi, and he doesn't even have a job. (Outside his podcast)  The entire lineup everywhere else just absolutely sucks.  

 

There are a few beat reporters who are very good, Keim, Standig and Michael Phillips are the three which immediately come to mind.  Matthew Paris from the Times seems not to suck.  

 

That's it.  For God's Sake, we're stuck with Doc effing Walker as the color guy in the preseason games.  And he's been on just about every radio show and podcast this week.  Listening to Doc for more than 3 minutes makes you dumber, and may God have mercy on your soul.  

 

Anyway, that's why the national guys picked it up.  

[mistertim]

4 hours ago, TheShredder said:

It's not that bizarre, owners like Irsay have media teams that propagate false narratives ahead of public perception forecasts to help ease their paying customers resistance to moves like Wentz. They do it in all sports, MLB is notorious for it. It was discussed on Pat McAfee in an interview the other day with former President of the Marlins. Guy admits the lies they perpetuate ahead of the moves owners make:

 

 

Yeah fair point.

 

I also find that clip to be hilariously ironic. McAfee rips into Chris Simms for probably being a mouthpiece for the Niners' negative propaganda about Jimmy G. But he's literally been doing the exact same thing for Irsay and the Colts on Wentz throughout the entire offseason.

 

He's such a clown.

[philibusters]

13 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

Sure, having a guy on a rookie contract helps, but trying desperately to reach a SB while your QB is still a rookie isn't much of a long term strategy. If you find an elite QB you're eventually going to pay him, and pay him a lot. Because the teams with elite QBs are the ones that are perennial contenders.

 

That's why I don't get some peoples' obsession with the cap percentage of a QB. Who cares? If he's an elite QB he's a force multiplier and will likely make you a contender for years to come. You just pay him and don't look back.

 

I guess the problem is if he's good but not great. Then you have to decide if you want to pay him a huge market rate and then just hope that you can build the kind of great supporting cast he'll need to go all the way or if you just want to cut your losses and try the draft again.

 

I do think a franchise is going to be better off with a good QB whether on a rookie contract or not.   We certainly agree about that.   I listen to a few PFF podcasts and they talk about roster building all the time and how QB's particularly elite QB's are underpaid if you use wins above replacement as the measuring metric.  From the PFF podcasts discounting QB's on rookie deals, you are going to pay about 20 million per win above replace for a QB and about twice that for all other positions.  And then the discount is biggest with elite QB's.   Kyler Murray may be a 2 to  2.5 wins above replacement player, whereas Patrick Mahomes maybe a 4  wins above replacement guy which would make him worth 80 million at 20 million per wins above replacement and 140 to 160 million otherwise (if you use 35 million to 40 million for each wins above replacement which is the range for other positions--for example very good RT, but not quite elite, may be worth .5 wins above replacement and make 18 million meaning you are essentially paying 36 million per wins above replacement in that scenario).   In other words there is a major discount for elite QB's.  First you end up paying them similar to guys like Kyler Murray, Kirk Cousins and Derek Carr.   Second QB's generate more value per dollar spent.

 

That said it is easier to win with a QB on a rookie deal.   If Mahomes was on a rookie deal making 10 million a year, Kansas City keeps Tyreek Hill and probably signs Orlando Brown to a long term deal.  They traded Hill and probably let Brown walk this offseason and those things make it just a bit harder to win it all.  And Mahomes like Brady is essentially giving the Chiefs a pretty big discount.  I think the Cardinals made the right move to sign Kyler Murray but he didn't really give them a discount (he is getting paid about 20 million per win above replacement which is the going rates for QB's and is making more than Mahomes in the first couple years of his contract compared to teh first couple years of Mahomes contract) and probably is worth two less wins above replacement than Mahomes.

[philibusters]

Before Wentz came here I had a negative impression of him.   I will explain why I had a negative impression.  For me the negative impression started with the year the Eagles won the Super Bowl.  He got hype for playing at an MVP level yet, yet Nick Foles came in and lead the team to a Super Bowl win.  My thinking was that Wentz got too much credit for the Eagles success.  Then nothing really soured me on him for a couple years until 2020 came along.  He was pretty bad in 2020 and then requested a trade.  The way I interpreted at the time, largely through the national media is that when times got tough he refused to take responsibility and immediately tried to bail from a sinking ship.  Then the way 2021 finished made me think, he is just not very good.  Like a lot of people, I tended to think of the Colts has having a rock solid organization and a good roster.

 

Then we traded for him and I started looking at the other side and I changed my opinion.  But for me it is very easy to understand why a lot of people don't think he is all that because I had that opinion until 4 or 5 months ago or whenever we traded for him.  I feel like before the Wentz trade, the majority opinion on this board were that getting Matt Ryan or Jimmy G were preferably to Wentz if it took the same capital to get them and that not giving up any draft capital and getting a player like Marcus Mariotta for say 10 million a year was also preferable.

 

Right now the optimistic fan in me likes the Wentz trade.  He is a lot younger than Ryan.   Jimmy G has an injury history and its difficult to figure out how good he will out of Kyle Shanahan which is a bit of a cheat code because he has been able to generate some much run after the catch with shorter throws in his system.  I think Wentz is better than Mariotta and that the difference in their salaries is probably better spent at QB than another position.  But only time will tell.  Maybe Wentz will be successful here, maybe he won't.  Maybe Ryan is successful with the Colts maybe he is not.  Maybe Jimmy G. was a bigger part of the 49'ers success than he is credited and it wasn't as much Shanahan's offense as we thought.  But at this point there is no point in declaring victory or saying we were slighted, we have to let it play out and see who acted smartly.

[Skinsinparadise]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

1. The Eagles are a respected organization and they got rid of him.  Though, I think there is a lot more to that story than has been told, and I think it was somewhat mutual.  But that doesn't really factor in.  The league loves Lurie and Roseman.  

2. The media bought, hook, line and sinker, the garbage thrown at them by Irsay and Ballard.  The league loves (and I mean LOVES) Ballard, and to some extent Reich.  Irsay has a voice because for 20 years his organization won a lot of games because of Peyton Manning, Andrew Luck, Bill Polian and Tony Dungy.  People forget that Irsay is a spoiled rich kid, who is impulsive, abusive, and generally a bad person.

3. Wentz went TO the Commanders, and EVERYBODY hates Dan.  

4. And just to nudge the national guys, our local media  guys HATED the trade at the beginning also. There were multiple reasons every single one of them hated it, but they all did.  Some louder than others.   Every one of them went on for days about how terrible the trade was, they brought in all of the Philly and Indy reporters to say how awful it was. 

 

The national guys just took it and ran with it, because it's an easy target, and the local media paved the way. And the national media guys don't follow each story that closely, so when the DC media piled on, they picked up on that, and kept digging.  Also, they were being fed lines by Irsay.  

 

It was a win-win:  Trash Wentz which makes Dan look bad, and that's chum in the water. 

 

Our local media sucks ass.  It was ok, but it's getting worse and worse by the day. The only tolerable talk show host is Galdi, and he doesn't even have a job. (Outside his podcast)  The entire lineup everywhere else just absolutely sucks.  

 

There are a few beat reporters who are very good, Keim, Standig and Michael Phillips are the three which immediately come to mind.  Matthew Paris from the Times seems not to suck.  

 

That's it.  For God's Sake, we're stuck with Doc effing Walker as the color guy in the preseason games.  And he's been on just about every radio show and podcast this week.  Listening to Doc for more than 3 minutes makes you dumber, and may God have mercy on your soul.  

 

Anyway, that's why the national guys picked it up.  

 

Agreee with most of this.  I've made some of the exact same points on this thread months back about Roseman-Ballard, etc.

 

Disagree somewhat with your point #3.  Yes, they all hate Dan and deservedily so.  Yet, our QB moves aren't typically trashed.  They are actually typically lauded.  Dan was a douche last year too obviously, not just this year.  Yet, the Fitz signing was mostly lauded.  Ditto years back with all their other moves at QB, Alex Smith, McNabb, etc.  The RG3 trade.  On and on.   Also the national media liked the move of drafting Howell.  It's VERY Wentz specific.  The hate on Wentz existed before he got here. 

 

As I mentioned maybe the national media crapping on one of our Qb deals for once maybe is a good omen?

 

I think trashing Wentz doesn't make Dan look bad.  It makes Rivera looks bad.  Unless we later on hear that it was a Dan imposed move which I'd be surprised. 

 

I know you got a beef with the local media in part because you don't like them coming after Dan as aggressively as they do.  IMO Dan's earned all of that and double that really because he doesn't have the guts to talk publicly.  But as far as Wentz goes, I think the local media has been pretty balanced on Wentz.  Sheehan being a loud exception, hence I've taken him somewhat to task on it.  Heck even dudes like Finlay and Standig have made fun of the national media for their over the top trashing of Wentz.

 

It's the national media that's led the trashing of Wentz from what I observed.  You say its the reverse.  I find it distinctly the other way around.   National media also much more down on this team than the local media.  Phillips isn't the only one predicting a good season.  So has Keim, Weinstein to some extent.   The Finlay podcast crew were somewhat optimistic but seem a little more down on them post camp-preseason so far. 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Koolblue13]

9 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

EVERYBODY hates Dan.  

 

Can you not turn every thread into a Snyder bashing thread? 

[Skinsinparadise]

1 hour ago, philibusters said:

Before Wentz came here I had a negative impression of him.   I will explain why I had a negative impression.  For me the negative impression started with the year the Eagles won the Super Bowl.  He got hype for playing at an MVP level yet, yet Nick Foles came in and lead the team to a Super Bowl win.  My thinking was that Wentz got too much credit for the Eagles success.  Then nothing really soured me on him for a couple years until 2020 came along.  He was pretty bad in 2020 and then requested a trade.  The way I interpreted at the time, largely through the national media is that when times got tough he refused to take responsibility and immediately tried to bail from a sinking ship.  Then the way 2021 finished made me think, he is just not very good.  Like a lot of people, I tended to think of the Colts has having a rock solid organization and a good roster.

 

Then we traded for him and I started looking at the other side and I changed my opinion.  But for me it is very easy to understand why a lot of people don't think he is all that because I had that opinion until 4 or 5 months ago or whenever we traded for him.  I feel like before the Wentz trade, the majority opinion on this board were that getting Matt Ryan or Jimmy G were preferably to Wentz if it took the same capital to get them and that not giving up any draft capital and getting a player like Marcus Mariotta for say 10 million a year was also preferable.

 

Right now the optimistic fan in me likes the Wentz trade.  He is a lot younger than Ryan.   Jimmy G has an injury history and its difficult to figure out how good he will out of Kyle Shanahan which is a bit of a cheat code because he has been able to generate some much run after the catch with shorter throws in his system.  I think Wentz is better than Mariotta and that the difference in their salaries is probably better spent at QB than another position.  But only time will tell.  Maybe Wentz will be successful here, maybe he won't.  Maybe Ryan is successful with the Colts maybe he is not.  Maybe Jimmy G. was a bigger part of the 49'ers success than he is credited and it wasn't as much Shanahan's offense as we thought.  But at this point there is no point in declaring victory or saying we were slighted, we have to let it play out and see who acted smartly.

 

I had a negative impression months back mainly because I read that long ESPN article about him years ago that maybe him look like RG3 part 2 as far as being a headcase and not likeable in the locker room.  But then as the QB search went on during the off season, I softened on the idea of getting him.  I actually PM'd a regular on this thread and said you know i wouldn't mind Wentz if that's who they got.  Keim putting it in my head via his podcasts that Wentz is a possibility.

 

Getting Russell Wilson IMO would have been a game changer.  Elite QB.  And heck look at Denver now with 5 prime time games -- they've transformed from being a "meh" team as for national interest to now one of the real players at least perception wise.   But heck we got that and took a major shot at him and couldn't land him.  But we tried.  And according to Keim we had a lot of interest in Carr (he would have been my next choice) if the Raiders traded him.  So I dig their targets and mindset.  Last year I wanted Stafford.  Apparently, they did too. 

 

Keim said we poked around at Matt Ryan early in the process but Atlanta said he wasn't going to be traded.  Do I think Ryan > Wentz.  Heck, yes IMO.   Ryan is a slam dunk Hall of Famer IMO for a reason.  He wouldn't be the 2nd coming of Brunell or Alex Smith.  He's a clear peg better than that.  But three things about Ryan.  1.  He wasn't available timing wise for when they pulled the trigger.  2.  He might have said no to coming here.  3.  He's old.  We don't know if he's going to be the same dude.

 

I think shades of grey apply to Wentz.  I do buy some of the negatives because the evidence is clear:  he's not the belle of the ball in the locker room.  He is wildly inconsistent.  I've heard enough that he presses in big spots.  And that he doesn't like taking responsibility for losses-bad play.    But all QBs have flaws.  His assets IMO:  when he's great -- he's elite level great.  He's a nice guy.  He might be the most talented QB we've had sans RG3 forever.   Also, I think there is a good chance he's matured as a personality.   People can change. 

 

It's not like its easy to find elite-top 10 QBs.  Wentz IMO isn't a top 10 QB.  But he's certainly in the 12-20 conversation.  And what I like is they shot for a high end talent who is young versus an aging game manager type.

 

Edited August 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Warhead36]

Wentz is like Cousins. His personality type makes him easy to dislike. Then you factor in him coming here, one of the more easy to dislike teams in the league(because of our owner and before the past couple years allegedly racist name), and you have a recipe for hatred.

[Skinsinparadise]

A long dark tunnel, somehow I missed this in the mix of his comments in the past, wow.  Has there ever been an owner that has trashed a player like this?  Maybe Steinbrenner with Winfield eons back?

 

https://nypost.com/2022/08/18/colts-owner-jim-irsay-slams-carson-wentzs-inconsistency/?dicbo=v2-9bce888127fb434724aa6178cb1d50f7

Of course, this isn’t the first time that Irsay has taken a shot at Wentz. In March, he admitted that trading for the former Eagle was a mistake, that the quarterback had led the Colts into a “long, dark tunnel” and that it was “obvious” by the end of last season the team needed to move on from the former No. 2 overall pick.

 

5 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Wentz is like Cousins. His personality type makes him easy to dislike. Then you factor in him coming here, one of the more easy to dislike teams in the league(because of our owner and before the past couple years allegedly racist name), and you have a recipe for hatred.

 

I guess to each their own but I agree plenty don't like them.  Speaking for myself, I've met Cousins a few times.  My kids did his QB camp.  Super nice guy. 

 

I haven't met him but Wentz also comes off to me likewise -- super nice guy.  Signing autographs after camp nonstop.  Affable in his interviews.

 

I think they both perhaps suffer from being PG types, very midwestern, very religious -- different cups of tea compared to some other players.  And they both are a bit aloof.  And both accused by some teammates of being a phony -- whatever that means.

 

But yeah as I've said too on and off on this thread -- a lot of parallels to Kirk both on the field and off the field.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[TheShredder]

6 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

A long dark tunnel, somehow I missed this in the mix of his comments in the past, wow.  Has there ever been an owner that has trashed a player like this?  Maybe Steinbrenner with Winfield eons back?

Hard to be specific but I believe this is in every owner/GM handbook. Not all will use this tactic, but they are all aware of the court of public opinion. Sorry but I don't want to get into specifics or debate whether or not a narrative was orchestrated, like the Aaron Rogers fiasco(s) only recently. At the end of the day, it should be standard logic that media reports/reporting can be complete BS.

[Koolblue13]

Eagles trashed DJax pretty bad and that was completely untrue.

[Skinsinparadise]

31 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

Eagles trashed DJax pretty bad and that was completely untrue.

 

True but I don't recall them blaming their whole season on him or just kept at it for months like the Wentz situation. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

I know you got a beef with the local media in part because you don't like them coming after Dan as aggressively as they do.  IMO Dan's earned all of that and double that really because he doesn't have the guts to talk publicly.  But as far as Wentz goes, I think the local media has been pretty balanced on Wentz.  Sheehan being a loud exception, hence I've taken him somewhat to task on it.  Heck even dudes like Finlay and Standig have made fun of the national media for their over the top trashing of Wentz.

My beef with the local media is much more than Dan related. It's literally the cycle of negativity on EVERYTHING related with the team.  I think that stems from Dan, but isn't relegated to Dan.  The local media in general is just looking for reasons to be critical about everything.  Football related, non-football related.  We had the guy who covers the team for ABC7 act extremely inappropriately to Wentz in an interview granted by the team at the team facility.  We have Thom Lovero, who writes a column for the Washington something (examiner? Times? Not sure), does a spot on Sheehan's podcast and other podcasts OVERTLY say he's willing to lie about the team and everything about it to make the owner look bad, essentially just to stir the pot ON EVERYTHING.

 

Sheehan is obsessed with everything negative. He ties it back to Dan, but has he been positive about anything in years?  The McLaurin deal, he was negative about.  The off-season?  Negative about. He was even a wet blanket after the playoff win.  (I'll give him credit, he was right about that. Though I'm not sure he would have been as right if Fitz hadn't gotten hurt) He's negative about absolutely every aspect of the organization from top to bottom all the time.

 

The junkies couldn't find a coherent thought if it sat in front of them with a sign saying "coherent thought."  

 

Russell is such a caricature of himself even the guys in the media make fun of him for his past love of Haz, Barry and desire to run the ball on every play.  

 

BMitch and Doc (one to a MUCH MUCH MUCH greater degree) basically are tough-old-guy-results-blah blah blah guys.  Doc is the absolute worst. And he's the best they could find for the color guy on the preseason broadcast.  You get stupider listening to Doc.  Love the passion ... for 2 minutes. He was REALLY GOOD as the sideline guy.  Though all the folks "in the club" (ie: the local media) love him. BMitch isn't much better.  Since he's been paired with BMitch, JP has gotten stupider.  

 

The Washington Post's coverage is always slanted negative, which you would expect because they are the tip of the spear in the crusade against the team.  Which I'm actually fine with, they have an agenda, and they're going to stick to it.  They make no bones about it, and I'm ok with that.  

 

I heard recently that Grant and Danny were STILL doing the "Winning off the field" bit, which I grant was kindof funny for .. maybe a few weeks?  I haven't listened to them in ages (and never consistently because they are just bad.) 

 

Hell, for a while, 106.7 had a whole marketing campaign about bring "real" coverage and not "from the owners box."  Their whole purpose of existence was to be negative about the team.  And they even said it in their advertising. Granted, that was a while ago, but I don't think anything has really changed that much. 

 

It's all of them.  They are all negative about everything, and it's all the time. 

 

Now, I grant you, there HAS been a lot more negative than positive, on and off the field. And I'm absolutely NOT looking for a Larry Michael to blow propaganda sunshine up my ass.  That's also disingenuous and awful on the other extreme.  I get the negative coverage when there are negative things.  Bad decisions, Dan does stupid things, etc.  I'm just looking for "fair."  And intellectually honest. But I also realize that's probably not possible in today's media environment.  

 

Just some balanced reporting would be a nice change of pace.  I think you get that with Keim, Standig, Michael Phillips. I also think Logan Paulsen does a good job with the X's and O's.  I personally like Bram, and on his radio show, he is not afraid to be critical of the team, which is entirely different than Baghdad Larry and his Skintagables. But even with him, I always consider the source, because he IS the "Voice of the Commanders."  You sometimes get "fair" on JP's podcast. (Which I still really like because the three of them have really great chemistry, and it's entertaining.)

 

 

 

34 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

It's the national media that's led the trashing of Wentz from what I observed.  You say its the reverse.  I find it distinctly the other way around.   National media also much more down on this team than the local media.  Phillips isn't the only one predicting a good season.  So has Keim, Weinstein to some extent.   The Finlay podcast crew were somewhat optimistic but seem a little more down on them post camp-preseason so far. 

I think we're both right, in a way.  I think the local media absolutely led the "I HATE IT" charge early on, though there were a few national outlets, specifically Pat McAfee(who I wish I had never heard of) and the Athletic which were also leading the charge.  Irsay/Ballard pumped them full of lies, and they just ran with it. But the absolute minute the trade was announced, all of our local guys hated it.  Then they turned to the national media guys and the Indy and Philly local guys, and it just became a self perpetuating cycle.

 

And a lot of the national media guys are kindof "lazy" in a way, in that they just take what their brethren say, and either a) go ENTIRELY the opposite direction, or b) go FURTHER than the last guy.  So, they listen to the Athletic guy who's sitting in Irsay's suite at the combine (which he admitted to), and then reporting Irsay's side of the story as fact, they see the uproar in the local media, and they decide the best way to go is to double-down on how much Wentz sucks rather than go the other way and say, "eh, he's going to be ok."  Because honestly, that's boring.

I kindof think it was like a bomb that had 2 trails of gunpowder leading up to it, and both were lit at the same time, and then the whole thing exploded together.  I won't argue if you say the National Media started slightly ahead, but I even went back and looked at what Gladi tweeted after the trade, and HE was all "red flags."  2 days later he tweeted the play from the Cardinals game where Wentz evaded pressure and hit the go-ahead TD pass and said "I'm going to keep watching this until I like the trade."  

 

So, yeah, I think the two fed off of each other.  I also think the national guys like being booked on the local shows, and they knew they had chum in the water, so they kept going in that direction.

 

Ironically, the guys who I think were most un-changed were the PFF guys.  They never liked Wentz from an analytics perspective, and they continued to not like Wentz in about the same way.   They never came across as being influenced by the Irsay hit-job. As you know, I have MANY issues with PFF, (starting with their dear leader), but I don't question that they are trying to make sense of analytics, and providing an analytics based analysis, not a media-driven narrative. And while I think they get it wrong as much as they get it right, I appreciate the effort and intelligence that goes into it. Warren Sharp, when he was on with Galdi, I think was similar.  

 

Thank God Thor Nystrom didn't weigh in, though.    

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

My beef with the local media is much more than Dan related. It's literally the cycle of negativity on EVERYTHING related with the team.  I think that stems from Dan, but isn't relegated to Dan.  The local media in general is just looking for reasons to be critical about everything.  Football related, non-football related.  We had the guy who covers the team for ABC7 act extremely inappropriately to Wentz in an interview granted by the team at the team facility.  We have Thom Lovero, who writes a column for the Washington something (examiner? Times? Not sure), does a spot on Sheehan's podcast and other podcasts OVERTLY say he's willing to lie about the team and everything about it to make the owner look bad, essentially just to stir the pot ON EVERYTHING.

 

 

I'll answer this in the FO thread, off topic here.

 

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

 

 

I think we're both right, in a way.  I think the local media absolutely led the "I HATE IT" charge early on, though there were a few national outlets, specifically Pat McAfee(who I wish I had never heard of) and the Athletic which were also leading the charge.  Irsay/Ballard pumped them full of lies, and they just ran with it. But the absolute minute the trade was announced, all of our local guys hated it.  Then they turned to the national media guys and the Indy and Philly local guys, and it just became a self perpetuating cycle.

 

 

Couldn't disagree more that the local media led it.   I documented here many times how the national media led it. 

[mistertim]

3 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I had a negative impression months back mainly because I read that long ESPN article about him years ago that maybe him look like RG3 part 2 as far as being a headcase and not likeable in the locker room.  But then as the QB search went on during the off season, I softened on the idea of getting him.  I actually PM'd a regular on this thread and said you know i wouldn't mind Wentz if that's who they got.  Keim putting it in my head via his podcasts that Wentz is a possibility.

 

Getting Russell Wilson IMO would have been a game changer.  Elite QB.  And heck look at Denver now with 5 prime time games -- they've transformed from being a "meh" team as for national interest to now one of the real players at least perception wise.   But heck we got that and took a major shot at him and couldn't land him.  But we tried.  And according to Keim we had a lot of interest in Carr (he would have been my next choice) if the Raiders traded him.  So I dig their targets and mindset.  Last year I wanted Stafford.  Apparently, they did too. 

 

Keim said we poked around at Matt Ryan early in the process but Atlanta said he wasn't going to be traded.  Do I think Ryan > Wentz.  Heck, yes IMO.   Ryan is a slam dunk Hall of Famer IMO for a reason.  He wouldn't be the 2nd coming of Brunell or Alex Smith.  He's a clear peg better than that.  But three things about Ryan.  1.  He wasn't available timing wise for when they pulled the trigger.  2.  He might have said no to coming here.  3.  He's old.  We don't know if he's going to be the same dude.

 

I think shades of grey apply to Wentz.  I do buy some of the negatives because the evidence is clear:  he's not the belle of the ball in the locker room.  He is wildly inconsistent.  I've heard enough that he presses in big spots.  And that he doesn't like taking responsibility for losses-bad play.    But all QBs have flaws.  His assets IMO:  when he's great -- he's elite level great.  He's a nice guy.  He might be the most talented QB we've had sans RG3 forever.   Also, I think there is a good chance he's matured as a personality.   People can change. 

 

It's not like its easy to find elite-top 10 QBs.  Wentz IMO isn't a top 10 QB.  But he's certainly in the 12-20 conversation.  And what I like is they shot for a high end talent who is young versus an aging game manager type.

 

 

I had a negative view of Wentz as well for some of the offseason. Most of it wasn't related to his play; I thought he played well for the Colts last season overall, though he did have a couple of really bad games when they needed good ones.

 

My issues, like yours, were mostly about personality. There were reports from the Eagles a while back and it seemed to continue with the Colts that Wentz was a problem child. Hard to coach, didn't deal with criticism or adversity well, wasn't very well liked in the locker room. But then I started reading more and it sounded like some of that may be very overblown.

 

I still was wary and tended to think where there was smoke there was fire but then to be honest, the fact that the Colts went so hard in trying to trash him sort of made me think that the reports of all that stuff mostly being the Eagles and Colts trying to drive a negative narrative were quite possible. 

 

I think you're right that maybe he's just one of those guys who's got a particular personality that's not bad at all, but might not mesh with everyone in a football locker room. Super PG, super religious, sort of aloof. But it is what it is, and it sounds like the Commanders players have taken to him well, unless they're all just lying.

 

Only thing I think we'll probably continue to disagree a bit on is Ryan. I never really wanted him (unless it was for cheap) and I think he's a bit overrated and not Hall of Fame material. I think if there were a Hall of Rather Good he'd be in it, but IMO he's never been anything particularly "special". 

[Koolblue13]

I was always pretty high on Wentz. When the Colts gave up a 1rst and 3rd for him, I thought it would be a good mood, but the covid era was just weird for everybody. When they started bashing hi this offseason, I began to mention him here and everyone aid hell no. Then a bunch of funny Wentz memes came around. 

 

I didn't want to give up as much as teams did for Watson or Russel, I don't like Ryan and most of the scrubs are just that and Mayfield was the best of that bunch for me, but Wentz and what we paid for him, to me, was perfect and the best case scenario. 

[MisterPinstripe]

https://youtube.com/clip/UgkxepCvQBUTbTfBi_EhV5sO7TIyezqzmllK

 

So everyone was knocking Wentz that he can't take check downs and just is good at throwing deep. This segment they complain about him playing short in the first preseason game and want to see him take more shots. More evidence the national media is clueless and has no clue what they are talking about. 

 

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

We have a garbage franchise so we and our players will be considered garbage until we are no longer garbage. 
 

Let them talk until we shut them up. Hopefully soon. 

[Koolblue13]

I know it's preseason, but I'm watching the Colts Lions game right now and they really look like trash. Lions are just running it down their throat at like a 6.1 yard average and somehow I doubt the Lions have turned into some kind of powerhouse.

[TheShredder]

7 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

I know it's preseason, but I'm watching the Colts Lions game right now and they really look like trash. Lions are just running it down their throat at like a 6.1 yard average and somehow I doubt the Lions have turned into some kind of powerhouse.

2nd stringers...meh

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I had a negative view of Wentz as well for some of the offseason. Most of it wasn't related to his play; I thought he played well for the Colts last season overall, though he did have a couple of really bad games when they needed good ones.

 

My issues, like yours, were mostly about personality. There were reports from the Eagles a while back and it seemed to continue with the Colts that Wentz was a problem child. Hard to coach, didn't deal with criticism or adversity well, wasn't very well liked in the locker room. But then I started reading more and it sounded like some of that may be very overblown.

 

I still was wary and tended to think where there was smoke there was fire but then to be honest, the fact that the Colts went so hard in trying to trash him sort of made me think that the reports of all that stuff mostly being the Eagles and Colts trying to drive a negative narrative were quite possible. 

 

I think you're right that maybe he's just one of those guys who's got a particular personality that's not bad at all, but might not mesh with everyone in a football locker room. Super PG, super religious, sort of aloof. But it is what it is, and it sounds like the Commanders players have taken to him well, unless they're all just lying.

 

Only thing I think we'll probably continue to disagree a bit on is Ryan. I never really wanted him (unless it was for cheap) and I think he's a bit overrated and not Hall of Fame material. I think if there were a Hall of Rather Good he'd be in it, but IMO he's never been anything particularly "special". 

 

As for Ryan, he's had three seasons that were like Wentz 2017 season.  Elite level play.  Not very good.  Elite.   10 seasons with over 4000 yards, most of which were 4500 and up.  9 seasons of 25 plus TDs, including topping 30.  Almost a 95 career QB rating.  

 

The Alex Smith, Brunell comparisons that I've seen here by some months ago -- to each their own -- but IMO Ryan is on another planet from them.  Alex had statisitically a career game just about against the Lions a couple of years ago, with 300 yards plus, i think he has only a few like that in his career if I recall at the time.   Alex's borderline career game, Ryan has had a zillion of. Do you recall what happened when in 2018 it was Alex versus Ryan and it turned into a shoot out?  Alex with one season over 4000 and just barely.  One season over 25 Tds, that's it.

 

Not to pick on Alex.  But I recall some posts that it would be the same old, similar signing to the previous ones.  IMO not at all.  Except for the age part -- getting a player at their end of their career.  Ryan is not only a Hall of Famer IMO but I think its an easy call.  

 

I think he's suffering from some recency effect perception wise where in his later years, he's been more of a 12-16 type QB and that brush in turn is painted now for his full career.  But for most of his career, he's been considered a top 10 QB.

 

I do think the Colts are getting carried away acting like they are getting Tom Brady in the fold.  But as for a player, IMHO some people underestimate him.  He's no McNabb, Alex or Brunell to say he crushes all three of them statisitcally would be an understatement.

 

I do think the national media and the Colts are over the top about his prowess this late in his career.  But will see.  

 

 

https://bloggingdirty.com/2022/03/21/3-reasons-matt-ryan-headed-hall-fame/4/

 

3 Reasons Matt Ryan should be headed to the Hall-of-Fame

 

 

• 59,735 Career Passing Yards 
• 2016 MVP
• 367-Touchdowns Thrown 
• 2008 OROY 
• 2016 OPOY 
• 42-Game winning drives  
• Owns most passing yards through a player’s first 14-seasons in NFL history 
• Surpassed 4,000-passing yards from 2011-2020 only Drew Brees accomplished this as well 
• 10th QB in NFL history to surpass 50,000-passing yards 

 

When Ryan’s career is over how can you keep him out of the Hall with the company he will be in?

Matt Ryan is currently 8th on the all-time passing yardage chart trailing only Phillip Rivers, Dan Marino, Ben Roethlisberger, Brett Farve, Peyton Manning, Drew Brees, and Tom Brady. If he remains healthy over the next three seasons when all is said and done Ryan will end his career in the top five. If his career ended today he would be a top ten passer in nearly every major category.

He should pass Rivers and Marino in yardage this season and could pass Roethlisberger this year with a great season.  If not Ryan will easily pass him during the 2023 season and end his career as a top-five passer of all time.

Edited August 20, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Skinsinparadise]