The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[The Consigliere]

18 hours ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

 

Poor Mahomes man. Andy Reid and that organization are so utterly god awful at drafting playmakers. They hit on Hill (a miracle hit, the profile was comically absurd coming in, check out his college production, think he was juco or some weird kind of transfer), and hit on Kelce, and hit on RB's, and then the last several years they've drafted nothing but bust WR's over and over and over again (MeCole Hardman and Skyy Moore probably the biggest misses) and horrendous CEH (at least they hit on Pacheco against much larger odds). They probably should have just signed a quality FA WR for him since they can't seem to draft them to save their lives. On the positive side, for Mahomes, Rice, and Pacheco look solid, so they may finally have some decent options, but those guys definitely aren't Tyreek Hill and Kareem Hunt level talents at all. 

15 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

The Giants issue is being warped unintentionally in this debate.

 

I'll say it again i am never taking a player because some other team would take them.  I'd be a moron.   And I've never advocated something that stupid.

 

My point is if they take or don't take a QB  -- lets say they don't and that QB shines with the Giants and whatever decision this GM makes doesn't work out --- it will make his decision look worse.

 

Heck Giants fans crow about they got Andrew Thomas and we got Chase.  Deonte Banks is pissy that we took Forbes and not him.  If the Giants and not us get the next Lamar Jackson when we pass over him. Again i am not saying Jayden is Lamar, I don't know but lets say worse case scenaro.  then heck year its going to be part of that dude's narrative as to his career.  And our new Gm will have to own it. 

 

I hear you, I just don't think it matters and I'd be disappointed in an owner that cares about that. Win the long game. The giants can crow all they want, or we could about Scherrf forcing them to take Flowers etc, its funny, but we both suck/sucked, so it doesn't really matter. I get that maybe you're onto something, job security is more tenuous when you make big loud mistakes, rather than small, quiet ones, but I also think all of this takes care of itself if we just focus on building right and smart and we get a little luck along the way. 30 years down the road from NFL relevance, nobody anywhere cares or even thinks about us. We live in a world where the Giants, Eagles, and Cowboys are our rivals in different ways, but none of them consider us their biggest rival in the division because its been 30 years since we mattered, we're the Cardinals of the 1980's/1990's NFC basically and we've been that way for 30 years. 

[Skinsinparadise]

11 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I think the record will show we regret letting most of our assistants walk.

 

Teams have been plucking future stud coaches from under our noses for 10+ years. I am sure some GM is interested in how EB would look with an offensive line, or run game, some fine tuning of his play calling that I think is obvious Ron is NOT diving him. Lets just call it working in a functional organization that isn't led by guys walking the plank arms crossed.  Now that they have him not Andy Reid on record the curtain has been pulled back. He looks raw (anyone really truly surprised??) but anyone expecting otherwise may have set too high an expectation. ALL knew our OL sucked. Did all adjust expectations on EB accordingly? Play calling all starts up front.

I'll be the salmon betting $10 to win $100000 that one day EB will be a respected OC and people here will be complaining about our OC of the day, en route to stardom in his next stop.

 

 

 

That's true of the Shanahan tree.  O'Connell from the Jay tree.  

 

Not sure that Ron has that type of staff.  I'd be more than happy to see Bieineimy go.  I was good with the hire but i am not impressed with his work here. 

[The Consigliere]

15 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Great summary.

 

I am not arguing for or against Howell in this context.  I've more than earned my stripes backing and defending Howell on this thread and elsewhere.  I am a fan of him.  If you read my posts on this thread I'd have to be at least top 5 as to having Howell's back even when it wasn't cool. 

 

But I am not emotionally tied to any player.  I am emotionally tied to the success of this team. 

 

If we end up picking in the top 5.   Just by chance we might have the chance to get the Heisman Trophy winner who had a sick season.  i am not saying we take him.  But the idea of just shrugging it off and ignoring that dynamic seems crazy to me.  

 

Can the GM digest this dynamic and decide Howell is the dude let Daniels go to New York or whomever, cool with me.  But I think this needs to be digested and considered.  And everyone that I noticed that covers this team agrees.  it's worth giving some thought, that's all.  My argument is its not a no brainer to just ignore this dynamic if they pick top 5.

 

 

 

  

I should add this for clarity's sake since we've had some real back and forth's over the years with outlier's like McLaurin, or busts like Rosen I liked. I don't know ---- about Daniels. He's the least researched QB I've had to think about in eons. I paid zero attention to him this year, didn't even know what college he played for or that he was a transfer until last week, so my trepidation with him is entirely knee jerk RGIII PTSD. I have to dig under the hood to get a clue this offseason, watch his bowl game (first game I will have seen him play, if he plays) etc. I have no idea, he just scares me because in a couple of clips I saw, he's thin as the proverbial rail, and has gotten smashed with bad instinct running (Howell is similar except great running intuition for slipping tackles, bad running intuition for avoiding hits). So I have a lot of work to do. I know Caleb pretty well, Drake Maye not that well at all. I just never thought we were gonna draft high enough to even consider either of those guys, I assumed Sanders, Ewers, Penix, and a few others might be under consideration. It's been a weird year. 

[zCommander]

48 minutes ago, skinny21 said:

Poor internal clock

 

 

My internal clock is set for exactly 6 hours. It doesn't matter when I go to bed my body wakes up exactly 6 hours later. Can't vouch for Howell though. Not sure how you know he has a poor internal clock. 

[Koolblue13]

If the Bear make EB the HC, do we get a pick for that?

[The Consigliere]

16 hours ago, zCommander said:

It is quite interesting that the idea here is that what if we don't take a QB in 2024, say at the #3 or #4 spot then we won't have a chance like this again in 2025. This type of thinking is that somehow Howell will not be good enough to get us into the playoffs next year but will have a 8-9 season and therefore not be able to pick higher in 2025.

 

But we already know pretty much what Howell has been able to do with our current OL. So building the OL and other players around him will make this team a deep playoff team. Why would I care who the top QB is in 2025 at that point? 

 

If you stand back and look at all the games that we have lost so far this year, how many we could have won if had a legit or even a semi-legit D? Is a QB allowed to have a bad day at the office, of course he does. You are not going to win them all. Just like last year when the Eagles were unbeaten and we beat them. It happens to even the best of the best. Hell we almost beat them twice this year but apparently couldn't do so but still went toe to toe with them but ironically we lose twice to the lowly Giants (something is so weird about this NY team like a hex or something lol).

 

My point, the idea of let's run this guy out of town because he has already been here 2 years instead of let's build something so this guy can possibly be the future for the next 10 years instead. I like to set long term goals as in the past these short term goals haven't worked for the last 25+ years and if a GM is smart he will see that as well. The plus on this is that if Howell in year 4 falters all you have to do is get a vet (like the Rams) and win it all since you will already have a great supporting cast in place. 

It's the class. The '25 QB class is pretty weak. Even if we suck in '24 w/Howell proving to be a Frerotte/Campbell or worse next year, the following class will be like those classes back then as well, the horrid '96 and '97 classes (those Kerry Collins top pick, Jim Druckenmiller type classes), or the Campbell years where in '07 when Campbell was clearly a bust, the flagship QB was JaMarcus Russell. If the '25 class was loaded, I'd be more open to it, but it looks like 2nd tier guys right now, maybe one top of class guy.

 

Additionally, the entire roster is basically crap, so whatever we do this offseason isn't suddenly gonna make us into the Rams going Stafford hunting. It's going to be a bad team just like it was in '23, '22, '21, '20 and '19. 

 

The problem is, we're here right now. What do we think Howell is and can be? I think most outsiders see him as a Baker ceiling, with a "good backup" floor. If that's it, it aint good enough because a Baker ceiling does not make you a consistent contender ever, it might give you a playoff run here or there, but thats only if everything is perfect around him. Personally, I think he might have a higher ceiling than Baker and definitely a lower floor than healthy Baker. We'll see. The only saving grace to this season so far, is that much like '19, we've turned a bad, derailed season into nearly a max performance crap year, only the Patriots have been more effective at tanking than us in a lot of ways. Good for that, if this continues to play out, we should be able to take a generational TE, a #1 ranked high end OT, a generational WR, a high end Edge, or trade down, or a good prospect QB. That's what I like. Seasons like '20-'22 were the nightmare. When we were bottom 5-10 caliber, but fought like a middle of the road team and earned middle of the road draft capital for those crap rosters. Now, finally, we're imploding. Thank God. There's hope in these ashes. 

 

[Skinsinparadise]

8 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I should add this for clarity's sake since we've had some real back and forth's over the years with outlier's like McLaurin, or busts like Rosen I liked. I don't know ---- about Daniels. He's the least researched QB I've had to think about in eons. I paid zero attention to him this year, didn't even know what college he played for or that he was a transfer until last week, so my trepidation with him is entirely knee jerk RGIII PTSD. I have to dig under the hood to get a clue this offseason, watch his bowl game (first game I will have seen him play, if he plays) etc. I have no idea, he just scares me because in a couple of clips I saw, he's thin as the proverbial rail, and has gotten smashed with bad instinct running (Howell is similar except great running intuition for slipping tackles, bad running intuition for avoiding hits). So I have a lot of work to do. I know Caleb pretty well, Drake Maye not that well at all. I just never thought we were gonna draft high enough to even consider either of those guys, I assumed Sanders, Ewers, Penix, and a few others might be under consideration. It's been a weird year. 

 

No doubt Daniels build is the concern.  I've said the same.  It's the obvious x factor.  It's also not over on that front, let say what he weighs in during the combine.  I doubt its lost on Daniels agent, etc that he needs to bulk up will see.

 

Again my point is not lets take Daniels.  The only point i am hardcore on is Harrison Jr over Fashanu or Alt.    I don't have an opinion yet on Daniels.  I am playing some devils advocate on the point and my point I wouldn't take the idea off the table.  IMO its a player they should dissect.

2 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

If the Bear make EB the HC, do we get a pick for that?

 

No because he hasn't been here two years

[The Consigliere]

15 hours ago, KDawg said:

I think it’s pretty easy. We need to upgrade the OL or the QB means squat. Does that mean you have to draft OL? Not necessarily. Though I don’t see a great path to upgrade without that but there are some opportunities.

 

My bigger issue with going QB is that I don’t believe in either of the two big prospects.

 

I’m most intrigued by Daniels upside. I think Rattler is an interesting mid round option that, if he develops, has really high upside but also a mediocre at best case of making that improvement.

 

So, I can’t argue that we have to keep Howell or have to draft OL. But I can argue that I think the OL FA options are meh, the QB draft options are iffy and the OL draft class is deep and solid. And therefore, I think improving the OL via draft is our biggest upgrade.

 

But who knows.

I tend to think you guys are too low on Williams, maybe a little too high on Maye, sounds like you're not high on either of them. 

 

I don't think a good OL means anything if you don't have a legit QB, and honestly, I think both are negated by bad versions of their opposite, but I think you can get by far more easily with an average OL, and a great QB, than an average QB and a great OL and I think modern NFL history backs that argument 1000%. If you can have both, have it, but if you can only have one, get the QB. 

 

For me, we are already guaranteed to have 3 picks between around 40ish and 70th. You can do a lot for an OL grabbing multiple OL's at the top of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. That window is fine. OL has a much higher hit rate than any other position historically (supposedly) for day 2 through around pick 120, probably in no small part because there's so much more opportunity at the position (5 gigs is larger than any other position, and OL depth nearly always is used during a season giving players opportunity to get reps seasons to season and grow if they have talent. That's not really true typically at most of the other positions). 

 

So to me anyway, get some FA help, draft at least 2 OL's with our top 6 picks, especially if we trade down on day one or day 2, and we don't have to take an OL, we can be flexible. 

 

Theoretically, before any picks our made, our draft class of picks could easily be:

4th

36th

38th

68th

100th

104th

 

There's a lot you can do there that doesn't have to involve 4 that is seriously addressing the problem. 

 

We'll see what they do. My bet, right now?

 

We spend FA money on either the best OL, or multiple guys for depth. We use 2 picks in the first 100 of the draft on the OL, possibly 3 if we trade down w/one of our top 68 picks. 

[Skinsinparadise]

That's my point in a nutshell

 

 

 

[The Consigliere]

14 hours ago, kingdaddy said:

How would you feel about going with Bowers (TE) at 4 or 5 and then going O-line with the next two picks or grabbing the best available early in round 2 if a great prospect falls that far? 

I guess it depends on how Bowers grades out but he could be a game changer for Howell. If it's that deep of an O-line class then maybe we can get two good ones in round 2? Or is that too risky given our needs?

It's a long, long rebuild from Snyder Crater, so honestly, I would just take or trade down for Bowers in that kind of scenario (figure out which teams will take Bowers, usually you can figure it out and if he's slipping due to injury or team needs, move down a bit, and take him or an OL). I'd be fine with that. Bowers definitely looks like an elite, top 4-5 TE going forward, maybe better, and if he does become that, it will be huge for us by 2025/2026, not so much in '24. In some ways a pick like that actually helps the rebuild because it is so "niche" that it will not have a transformative effect on anything until the roster around him is better and QB is solved, either in house, or via a draft pick or trade. 

 

For me anyway, I really want to come out of round one with Fashanu, a QB, Harrison Jr, or Bowers via trade down, with Alt via trade down as another option. Any of those, and we have building block pieces, or a legit chance to finally have a solution at QB. All of that works for me, though QB scares me the most. 

[srtman04]

3 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

That's my point in a nutshell

 

 

 

 

This is all subjective.   There's been so many 1st round busts that this makes it a complete gamble.  I don't think you can say for sure, 100% that all these prospects will be better than what we already have now......

[KDawg]

8 minutes ago, The Consigliere said:

I tend to think you guys are too low on Williams, maybe a little too high on Maye, sounds like you're not high on either of them. 

 

I don't think a good OL means anything if you don't have a legit QB, and honestly, I think both are negated by bad versions of their opposite, but I think you can get by far more easily with an average OL, and a great QB, than an average QB and a great OL and I think modern NFL history backs that argument 1000%. If you can have both, have it, but if you can only have one, get the QB. 

 

For me, we are already guaranteed to have 3 picks between around 40ish and 70th. You can do a lot for an OL grabbing multiple OL's at the top of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th. That window is fine. OL has a much higher hit rate than any other position historically (supposedly) for day 2 through around pick 120, probably in no small part because there's so much more opportunity at the position (5 gigs is larger than any other position, and OL depth nearly always is used during a season giving players opportunity to get reps seasons to season and grow if they have talent. That's not really true typically at most of the other positions). 

 

So to me anyway, get some FA help, draft at least 2 OL's with our top 6 picks, especially if we trade down on day one or day 2, and we don't have to take an OL, we can be flexible. 

 

Theoretically, before any picks our made, our draft class of picks could easily be:

4th

36th

38th

68th

100th

104th

 

There's a lot you can do there that doesn't have to involve 4 that is seriously addressing the problem. 

 

We'll see what they do. My bet, right now?

 

We spend FA money on either the best OL, or multiple guys for depth. We use 2 picks in the first 100 of the draft on the OL, possibly 3 if we trade down w/one of our top 68 picks. 

 

I am not all that high on either Williams or Maye, no.

 

Maye reminds me of a taller Howell.

 

Williams, to me, isn't as good as advertised. But I've never thought so. I think he could be good. Ditto for Maye. Ditto for Howell.

 

Circumstance will dictate that.

 

But Williams is the same size as Howell and people had a conniption about his size. So what's different about Williams?

 

He had a tremendous year last year... This year has been good, too. He'll very likely be a good pro. But great? I don't know.

 

Like I've said numerous times now, I'm not against going QB as long as the line is addressed.

 

A mediocre OL is quite the upgrade from what we have now, by the way.

 

[Redskins 2021]

 To many other holes on this team to worry about Qb right now. Howell may or may not be the longterm Qb but has played well enough to get another year with better talent. This team needs players at pretty much every position.

 

Edited December 5, 2023 by Redskins 2021

[Sacks 'n' Stuff]

15 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

That's my point in a nutshell

 

 

 

Yeah, but there isn’t so…

[oraphus]

1 minute ago, Redskins 2021 said:

 To many other holes on this team to worry about Qb right now. Howell may or may not be the longterm Qb but has played well enough to get another year with better talent. This team needs players at pretty much every position.

That's the kind of thinking that got us where we are now. If you're picking in the top 5 pics and you don't have a set franchise QB, and one with that potential is available.. you take that  QB and build a team around him. With proper coaching and some FAs this team can be rebuild pretty quick.. at least on the O side. 

[Koolblue13]

Daniels is incredibly intriguing at 4, especially with Howell. We could end up with a Brees/Rivers situation.

[The Consigliere]

9 hours ago, BrentMeisterGeneral said:

Something I see banded around frequently is that Sam Howell is 'Kirk Cousins / Derek Carr' level. The disrespect to those two guys is wild, reality is Howell has not shown that level of talent yet, whether you think the O Line is to blame, or the WR's, or Bienemy, or anyone but Sam, he still hasn't shown that level yet.

As SIP said, Kirk Cousins is basically a production machine who just ----'s the bed consistently in big games. If you look at his raw production #'s, for the past 8 seasons he was basically 6th-10th four times, and 11th-15th four times. He's incredibly reliable in terms of pure production, a consistend above average to good starter, with a floor of top 15, and a ceiling of just outside elite (except those big games). 

 

Carr is nothing at all like that, the Raiders went back and forth about trading him or replacing him for years and years for a reason. He's basically the next tier down, and hit the wall much sooner.  Look at his career as a starter: 10 seasons, zero top 10 seasons, 4 in that 11 to 15 zone, 4 in that 16-19 zone, and 2 in that 20th or worse zone.

 

He's basically the dictionary definition of an average QB with a floor of below average, and a ceiling of slightly above average. 

 

He's EXACTLY what you do not want. Borderline competence. Good enough to be 8-9 a billion years in a row, which isn't surprising when you realize that's kind of what his career has been. 63-83 with the Raiders. 

 

I don't know what Howell is, but I do think his ceiling is better than Carr and his floor is worse. We'd love that ceiling or floor, what we don't want is Carr, perpetual uncertainty, and then 10 years later, you realize you finished on average every year with a .400-.450 winning percentage, nothing but on average, 7-10 to 9-8 type seasons. That's purgatory and we've been living a kind of inferior version of that for 30 years already. No thank you. 

[Warhead36]

I won't lie a combo of Ben Johnson and Jaden Daniels would be exciting at the very least.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, oraphus said:

That's the kind of thinking that got us where we are now. If you're picking in the top 5 pics and you don't have a set franchise QB, and one with that potential is available.. you take that  QB and build a team around him. With proper coaching and some FAs this team can be rebuild pretty quick.. at least on the O side. 

I keep seeing people say this and no one explains why Williams or Maye are considered franchise level QBs. What do they do that makes them so good you can’t pass on them?

 

I am not saying they aren’t good. I want to make sure my take is transparent: they are both good QBs that could have a bright future. However, this years QB class has been overhyped for 2.5 years now. 

[skinny21]

Just now, Koolblue13 said:

Daniels is incredibly intriguing at 4, especially with Howell. We could end up with a Brees/Rivers situation.

AKA waiting for our Herbert…

 

 

 

(and then a staff that can help him succeed…)

 

 

😁

42 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

My internal clock is set for exactly 6 hours. It doesn't matter when I go to bed my body wakes up exactly 6 hours later. Can't vouch for Howell though. Not sure how you know he has a poor internal clock. 

Just to be clear, that was just a general (non-comprehensive) list of factors for good qbing…

[Redskins 2021]

13 minutes ago, oraphus said:

That's the kind of thinking that got us where we are now. If you're picking in the top 5 pics and you don't have a set franchise QB, and one with that potential is available.. you take that  QB and build a team around him. With proper coaching and some FAs this team can be rebuild pretty quick.. at least on the O side. 

 Qb bust at a very very high rate. Howell probably proven enough that he could easily be a game manager with enough talent. It's going to cost draft capital to move up to get one of top two Qb. See what Howell does next year then move up for a qb. Next season is going to be bad again. A couple FA will not turn us around very quickly.

 

There are alot more teams that have one superbowl championship with non franchise Qb in the last 10 years.  He is not Brady or Mahomes but he could be as good as Foles, Flacco, Wilson, Staford and Eli Manning who have all won in last ten years.

Edited December 5, 2023 by Redskins 2021

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As you know i am VERY vocal as a critic of their efforts on the O line, its been the lead dance of why i've bailed on Ron.

 

I know there are a few stragglers here who think the o line issues are hyperbole and its not that bad.  But most here, i think feel about it the way we do.

 

I think the O line debate is simple the way its presented by some.  Can you improve the O line without using their first pick in the draft on it?  That seems to be the whole discussion more or less.   Ditto I notice with fans on twitter.

 

My feeling is yes.  But, I am also good with using the first pick in the draft on O line which clearly be the most ideal to fix that spot.  And I got no problem with those pushing that narrative.   

 

I don't know for sure if I'd pull the trigger on Daniels.  I am not just ruling it out as some ridiculous get out of here, its not on the table idea which i get the vibe from some -- not you.   The one thing I know with 100% certainty as to what I'd do is i am not taking Fashanu and Alt over Marvin Harrison Jr., if that opportunity arises.  And I am one of the bigger fans here of both tackles.  But Harrison to me is too special to pass over it.  So in that context, yeah i am using those 2 2nd round picks and FA to attack the O line.

 

Am I good with heck using the first rounder and two 2nd rounders on the o line?  Yes.   But I am not married to that.   i am not married to the first rounder must be an O lineman.  To me there are 3 things that would put me away from using the first rounder on O line.

 

A. trading down

B.  Marvin Harrison Jr.

C.  If the new GM thinks a QB at their spot is potentially elite with a higher ceiling than Sam

 

 

 

 

I will say with regards to Leno, are some of these problems sometimes a domino effect of just having crap around you? Leno's graded out pretty well over the years, is he playing horrible, or is LG part of the problem? Not sure. Regardless, no doubt we need to fix OL, over the next two years (too big of a job for one year). 

[Skinsinparadise]

9 minutes ago, Sacks 'n' Stuff said:

Yeah, but there isn’t so…

 

If you get hired as the top evaulator for the organization and that's your professional evaluation, I'll back your take.  Will see, we are about a month before the GM hire.  I am cool if it ends up you running the team or anyone here from extremeskins.  I trust Josh Harris.  But if its not you, I am deferring to whomever is calling the shots.

[BrentMeisterGeneral]

2 hours ago, skinsfan66 said:

Draft Jayden Daniels and I would be fine with it. Or whoever the Person in charge feels it makes the team better but make the right pick. No need to discredit Howell because Carr and Kirk would have been destroyed by this OL too this year. So glad we did not sign another castoff like Carr this last season. Kirk has Top WR's has had a dominate RB and way better OL these last few years and won nothing too.  At this stage Howell has been equal to Kirk who had a better OL at the time here.   

I’m not sure it’s discrediting Howell to say he’s not reached the heights that Kirk or Carr have reached in their careers, he hasn’t.

 

I think Sam has been ok to fairly good, he’s been dealt a bad hand but at times hasn’t really

helped himself.

In fairness to the kid it’s a compliment to say I doubt we would be back in the top 5 any time soon if he had a better O Line. But if the GM loved Daniels then I’m all about it.

[KDawg]

5 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

If you get hired as the top evaulator for the organization and that's your professional evaluation, I'll back your take.  Will see, we are about a month before the GM hire.  I am cool if it ends up you running the team or anyone here from extremeskins.  I trust Josh Harris.  But if its not you, I am deferring to whomever is calling the shots.

What if they hire Bruce Allen?

 

I mean that semi tongue in cheek and as a joke, but it’s also a serious thought. All of this support around here from the fanbase for “whoever they hire” without even knowing who they hire is new.