The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Stihl89]

There’s not a single universe that some one would say Hurney is anything above a bottom 5 GM candidate. 

[Voice_of_Reason]

2 hours ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

All I’m saying is that I hope Harris doesn’t force Howell on whoever he hires and don’t expect him to.  I hope Howell dictates the decision himself with his play.

 

 

 

 

The nice thing is there is no benefit to releasing him.  
 

So the new GM comes in with a guy who clearly can start some games as a minimum  option, and then can decide whether they want to add to the mix with another rookie or veteran. 
 

Every option is on the table because there’s no benefit from cutting Howell.  You don’t save cap room. And he’s a 5th round pick so you don’t have to justify giving him opportunities because you spend a first or multiple firsts on him.  
 

This is different than forcing Griffin on Gruden or the Eagles moving Wentz, or the Giants deciding on Jones.  
 

This is a 5th round pick in his 3rd year with no cap benefiting of cutting.  He’s going to be here as an option.  New GM can choose to add to the options or not.  

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, KDawg said:

 

Your GM, if you were an owner of a team, would be strictly for finding a QB and keeping him and not for.... everything else?

QB is the most important position. On the field. 

 

We should not give up on it Willie Nillie. Dude is showing he can do it all, so yes I want a GM who will do all he can to keep him until he shows otherwise. 

 

We have other holes to fix. Lets now create one at QB. 

[Stihl89]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

QB is the most important position. On the field. 

 

We should not give up on it Willie Nillie. Dude is showing he can do it all, so yes I want a GM who will do all he can to keep him until he shows otherwise. 

 

We have other holes to fix. Lets now create one at QB. 

If a new GM wants to move on from Sam shouldn’t that tell you something about him? Hell if there’s an argument that should tell you something. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Stihl89

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, Thinking Skins said:

QB is the most important position. On the field. 

 

We should not give up on it Willie Nillie. Dude is showing he can do it all, so yes I want a GM who will do all he can to keep him until he shows otherwise. 

 

We have other holes to fix. Lets now create one at QB. 

I’m confused. 
 

You are seriously implying that the GM can stink at everything but as long as he keeps the QB he’s solid and you’d keep him? This is an odd hill to die on.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

QB is the most important position. On the field. 

 

We should not give up on it Willie Nillie. Dude is showing he can do it all, so yes I want a GM who will do all he can to keep him until he shows otherwise. 

 

We have other holes to fix. Lets now create one at QB. 

I think if you hire an executive to run personnel and then an uneducated person (Owner) forces a decision at the most important decision, you’re neutering him right out of the gate. 
 

This is a very Dan Snyder thing to do.  
 

You hire a guy and let them do their job.  If he thinks Howell is the guy, great.  If he wants to bring in others, that’s his decision.  
 

You give them the responsibility to built the roster, the authority to do so, and then hold them responsible for their decision.

 

That’s how executive leadership works.  Or at least how it should.  If you don’t do it that way you’re swimming up hill.

[Thinking Skins]

Just now, KDawg said:

I’m confused. 
 

You are seriously implying that the GM can stink at everything but as long as he keeps the QB he’s solid and you’d keep him? This is an odd hill to die on.

No I think you're confusing my words. 

 

That was more tongue in cheek. I'm not good at whats called sarcasm

 

But I was saying that basically like a first thing, first day on the job type thing. Of course I care. With my analytics mind I'm going analyzing the GM for not letting the QB win. 

[Skinsinparadise]

21 minutes ago, Thinking Skins said:

Define a high reputation GM though? Wouldn't that be Marty? Or is he too close to Ron? Honestly it doesn't matter to me? I wanted a GM to find a QB. Now I just want my GM to not lose my QB. 

 

Reputation around the league.  Hurney and Mayhew had previous stints.  Mayhew's didn't go well in Detroit.  Hurney's went so so.  Neither one in demand when they were hired.  When you see these stories whether from ESPN insiders, Standig etc where front office people are rated by other front office people -- these dudes are considered by their peer group close to the bottom.  Not average at what they do but bottom tier among the worst.  My point is Harris I gather will be talking to other owners and people in the league and its clear that the average person like that doesn't feel about the Martys the way you do.  

 

Ron talked up the Bills FO when he got here.  But it was the Giants who hired their hot shot, 2nd in command, not Ron.  Ron basically hired two retreads.   Not that a retread can't have a 2nd wind and do OK.  And I gave them some rope and let it play out.  But I've seen enough now.

 

If someone wants to make the case they've been so so.  Maybe so.  But what's special about the Marty's work here?  The best players on this roster are from Jay's era.

 

They skipped over Darrisaw for Jamin Davis.   I like Dotson but he's not exactly killing it this season.  Forbes looks bad compared to his peers at CB right now -- the rest of that draft is contributing nothing.  Their big FA signing William Jackson was a big bust.  Curtis Samuel is decent but overpaid for that contract.  FA hasn't been hot for this regime.

 

It's not a disaster, some good picks in the mix.  but on the aggregate -- maybe I'd give them a C plus.

 

Heck even before Ron in my eyes tanked this off season, when i was much friendlier to him, once Harris came on the scene i wanted Ron gone.  We can laud a high floor-low ceiling coach like Ron with Dan because heck I just didnt think we can win with Dan.  But Dan is gone, we can shoot higher than the Martys.

 

This isn't the Dan regime anymore where the dream was every 4 years going 9-7 and getting knocked out of the playoffs.  Look Ron and this regime can certainly pull that off.  But lets dream bigger -- 11-6.  12-5.  Do you really think the Martys will mastermind something like that?

 

The kicker for me about why I don't care for this FO is how stuck on neutral they are.  Not obsessed with the present or future -- just keep it at 60 MPH.   Pick a lane, slow down now to speed up later (Eagles style trade assets-picks now for more assets later) or step on the gas now.  Zorn was infamous for his stay medium line but its really this regime that walks and talks that approach.  Their approach screams 8-9.  And no I don't think its a coincidence that they find themselves in that lane every season -- they approach the off season with an 8-8 vibe and then the season plays out that way.

 

I had patience that they were building to something in year 4, I can deal with 3 mediocre seasons for a big climb, I expected them to do step on the gas.  And they did the same old, same old.     So I learned they just love it in this gear.  That's cool, I can deal with it the first three years but in year 4 it sucks IMO.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[wit33]

I enjoy it when this message board starts to resemble parents in the crowd at an AAU or high school basketball game, or those at a Pop Warner or high school football game. I think there might be a few coaches in here, and they’re doing the very thing they likely advise their own parents not to do, lol.
 

Everyone has their own perspective, but the extreme positions can be quite extreme. Labeling coaches as incompetent when they are just a game away from a playoff spot at the halfway point of the season is quite a stretch. It’s incredibly challenging, even with an elite QB, and some teams still struggle to maintain consistency.

[KDawg]

3 minutes ago, wit33 said:

I enjoy it when this message board starts to resemble parents in the crowd at an AAU or high school basketball game, or those at a Pop Warner or high school football game. I think there might be a few coaches in here, and they’re doing the very thing they likely advise their own parents not to do, lol.
 

Everyone has their own perspective, but the extreme positions can be quite extreme. Labeling coaches as incompetent when they are just a game away from a playoff spot at the halfway point of the season is quite a stretch. It’s incredibly challenging, even with an elite QB, and some teams still struggle to maintain consistency.

I’m curious… which coaches here are doing what you’re saying? 
 

Or are you making things up to prove a point?

[wit33]

3 minutes ago, KDawg said:

I’m curious… which coaches here are doing what you’re saying? 
 

Or are you making things up to prove a point?

Not really sure who the coaches are  just imagine there are some. I did preface by saying “I think there might be a few coaches”. Are you a coach?

Edited October 21, 2023 by wit33

[KDawg]

1 minute ago, wit33 said:

Not really sure who the coaches just imagine there are some. Are you a coach?

Yes. Are you?

[wit33]

Just now, KDawg said:

Yes. Are you?

Yes, sir. I coach basketball, though.

[KDawg]

Just now, wit33 said:

Yes, sir. I coach basketball, though.

Very different coaching experience. But I don’t see anyone who coaches doing what you describe. I actually don’t see anyone being the “angry parent” in the stands in non-game day threads. Game day threads are an entirely different animal though and people talk real wild

[Skinsinparadise]

It's year 4 for Ron's era.   Building up that mountain to a 3-3 record which is Ron's best start here is something that should be applauded.   We should chill and enjoy the ride. 

 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Some of the opinions on this regime changed so fast The Flash is jealous.

I assume I am included in this bit here. 😆

 

To be  fair, I said I would replace Ron because I thought we could do better. I just didn’t agree with the nitpicking of everything he ever says or does. For instance, I could give a **** what Ron says to his wife after a football game. I still don’t.

 

But the coaching this year (especially on defense), I think has ben Ron’s most disappointing season yet. The offense is about what I expected. Howell has played about as well as I expected overall.

 

The Bills and Bears games were enough for me. I expect they were enough for Harris as well. 

 

 

Edited October 21, 2023 by AlvinWaltonIsMyBoy

[Skinsinparadise]

45 minutes ago, wit33 said:

Yes, sir. I coach basketball, though.

 

At what level?  you talk about it every now and then but sorry I don't recall what it was. 

 

I've done small time stuff like help coach my son's youth soccer team but that's of course easy.  I don't think I'd have the patience or expertise to do anything even half serious as to coaching albiet i love sports.

Edited October 21, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Voice_of_Reason]

Once again, I’m going to make the plea not turn the QB thread into a Ron/GM thread.

 

Every thread doesn’t have to be a Ron/GM/What we should have done this off-season thread.

[Voice_of_Reason]

1 hour ago, KDawg said:

Game day threads are an entirely different animal though and people talk real wild

I’m always completely rational and make 100% sense in game day threads and emotion never plays into any of my extremely well thought out and justified posts.  

[Stihl89]

 

[Going Commando]

4 hours ago, Conn said:

Someday you’ll just have to accept that Haskins sucked, never had all the makings of a franchise guy, and was a poor pick influenced by a bad owner. And hey, I tried talking myself into him back then as well. But Rivera sucking at his own job and trading a 5th for Kyle Allen didn’t change Haskins sucking. If Snyder hadn’t forced that pick the prior year, maybe Rivera’s regime would have been forced to have an actual opinion on Herbert and Tua vs Young. But we’ll never know.

 

You’re so shell-shocked by life under Snyder that you think it’s impossible for a competent, new GM and coaching staff to come in and make their own decision on Howell without immediately being “married” to the decision for their entire tenure. 

 

Spare me the psychoanalysis.  The way Ron handled Haskins was a disaster and it made me think at the time that the way he handled his QB room was eventually going to get him fired.  And nobody around here at the time wanted to hear any criticism of Ron, and now I see most of you using a bunch of my criticisms of Ron two and three years later.  At any rate, Ron waited three years to pick a direction and QB and now it's too late for him to see his development project through.  Any fan who doesn't see how that exact same pattern of mistakes could play out again with the next guys if they don't act decisively at the beginning of their regime has their head up their ass.

 

Believe it or not, I can look beyond this team to understand how the game and the league work, and I understand that establishing the HC-QB marriage early in a regime's tenure is absolutely critical to long term success.  It is always hard to develop a QB, there are always points when the coach wants to jump off the ride, always grass is greener moments, always periods of uncertainty.  I don't think that it's some special case for this franchise that the regime needs to establish their long term direction at QB at the beginning of their tenure.  I think that's the case for every new regime without exception.  I am also getting tired of pointing out that the Eagles's situation isn't analogous to ours at all.  Jeff Lurie and Howie Roseman have been there forever.  They fired Doug Pederson in large part because he wouldn't get on board with Hurts.  Hurts was their guy and they did marry their regime and their next HC hire to him.  We've got a new owner whose going to bring in an entirely new front office.  We can not afford for them to finally get serious about QB three years in.  They can not afford to be indecisive about Howell.

[wit33]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

At what level?  you talk about it every now and then but sorry I don't recall what it was.

 

High school: I coached Freshman, JV, and Varsity at various points over a decade.

 

Stopped soon after I had when I had my son, now coaching his club basketball 9-10 year old team.  

 

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

I've done small time stuff like help coach my son's youth soccer team but that's of course easy.  I don't think I'd have the patience or expertise to do anything even half serious as to coaching albiet i love sports.

I hadn't coached for over 6 years or so and jumped back in with this 9-10-year-old team. Even though it's the same sport, coaching high school players for many years is quite different from coaching 9-10-year-olds lol, though they're a dedicated and competitive group, which helps. 

Edited October 21, 2023 by wit33

[Skinsinparadise]

I defended Rivera on somethings and I still stand by some of them and on others I guessed wrong about him.  

 

As far as Haskins (RIP) goes.  When even Haskins' mentor Shawn Springs mocks Haskins lack of work ethic, we know it was a problem and its not made up.  His old Ohio State teammate, Chase Young said Haskins was immature.  This is from his peer group. His pals. Two different regimes complained about it. 

 

When Kyle Smith is the top personnel guy and according to a story from a beat guy, Kyle actually mocked Dan on draft day (saying we are really doing this, sarcastically) for insisting on taking Haskins who Kyle graded as a third round talent, it presented an unusual problem.  And having an owner who is dumb as rocks about football overriding his team's scouting about that player -- created an odd dynamic in that building.  And the kicker was that same player developing a reputation for being a dude who wasn't hungry and didn't put in the work.  So Ron's own FO didn't believe in him but they also didn't see him put in the work to exceed their expectations. 

 

I admit I didn't believe in Haskins talent either.  I talked about it on the draft thread right before that draft happened.  Our old friend volsmet cued me up to it because previously I bought into the Reddick hype about him.  But I watched 5 games back to back one morning and saw a dude with crappy accuracy aside from first level throws between the numbers.  And then I saw the same when I watched him in camp.  So the idea that Ron saw enough, made sense to me for various reasons.    No one claimed Haskins on waivers and it took a few weeks for him to find another team and he never climbed above being the third QB on the Steelers depth chart.  Tragic though what happened to him.  Because I did defend Haskins as a dude.  He came off to me like a nice guy.

 

The other moves I defended Rivera was the Dunbar and Trent trades.  I thought a 5th round pick for Dunbar was fine.  Ironically it ended up IMO his best trade here.   Dunbar was soon basically out of the league.  I also defended the Trent trade.  Bruce squandered the trade capital not Ron.  And it came out later that Dan wanted him gone so Ron was boxed in.  Ron is a loyal miltary solider type and is willing to take bullets for Dan.   If they traded Trent when his stock was high during that season they could have gotten either a first or a 2nd and third according to beat guys.  But Trent's trade value diminished that off season because he had less time left on his contract and we were competiting with FA and the draft.  That whole debacle was a Bruce-Dan special -- not Ron.    We talked about it would transpire just like that on that Trent thread at the time where his trade value would diminish.  That wasn't hindsight.   And it played out like that.

 

As for O'Connell leaving, Craig Hoffman who was close to O'Connell and certainly not the biggest fan of Rivera.  Hoffman was a Panthers fan growing up and thought Rivera was a middiling head coach though good for the culture under Dan.  But overall, Hoffman was one of the earliest critics of Ron.  He said a reason in the mix for him wanting to leave was he didn't think Haskins has it as the future.  But where I've changed my mind some was there were other reasons in the mix too.  And now knowing Ron a bit better, he tends to value comfort over competence.  So I bet he'd have leaned toward Turner over O'Connell regardless albiet i don't know that but it seems to fit Ron's style for wanting to make this team Carolinaish.

 

Heck I don't even blame Ron on Scherff either.  He tried to get him back but Scherff wanted out.  What I blame Ron for is this.  If you are going to shed all that salary -- Trent, Moses, Scherff then replace it.  If you are going to talk up the trenches and tell the world when you are shopping for  QBs that this is a great desitnation because PFF ranked the O line 6th -- then back it up, don't dismantle that unit, brag about what your predecessor did essentially to make it good and then tear it apart and don't rebuild it.

 

Ron's mistakes with O line and QB leading up to now will likely cost him his job and should.   If I had to pick three things that I was wrong about Ron which I've changed my mind on over time.

 

A.  I thought his middiling roster but with some good young talent the first three years was about building up to something bigger.  He himself talked up year 3 (last season) as the big climb season.  And I actually forgave him for failing on that front because I thought watch out for year 4, he's a year behind, which I didn't love but I figured hey if he's stepping on the gas in year 4, I'll let it ride.  He in my book did nothing of the kind.  If anything this might have been his most uninspiring off seasons.  He didn't step on the gas even a little.

 

B.  I thought Ron meant it when it came to building the trenches.  But apparently he only meant the D line.  Only reasons why I am so pesky on this point is I am a big O line guy well before Ron did the crap work he did here on the unit.   I talked about it plenty on the draft thread for years. 

 

C.  Some of his statements are off putting.  I shrugged most of that off early.  On that point I agree with @Going Commando.   I didn't mind it with Haskins because Haskins IMO earned that.    But Ron has shown an odd arrogance this whole tenure where he blames the players and doesn't take IMO sufficient responsibility.   Even the "do your job" line that he's using feels like a shot at the players.  I can let that go for players Ron didn't select.  But most of what's left of this roster is Ron's players.  The send me a SB ring after he's fired line -- to me is so Ron.  So delusional and so arrogant.  For a dude who I do think genuinely is a nice guy, he has an ego like he's had a Belichick like track record versus the dude who has only had three winning seasons in 12 years.

 

I also hated his other comments where he alluded to the media being fixated on him winning in his 4th season as if they are wrong about that -- how entitled does Ron think he is?  He doesn't need to win in his 4th season?  How long is this rebuild?   10 years?

Edited October 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise

[Thinking Skins]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

I want to see the whole season play out for Howell before landing on a hard take but in short he's flashed more than Kirk at this stage.

 

Kirk has better size and was-is better at avoiding sacks.  But if you guys recall a lot of ups and downs with early Kirk -- good games but awful games, too.

 

Keim who has seen all the Qbs here for the last 30 years or so has said to his eyes in camp, Howell has the best arm talent since Kirk and their work ethics are also similar.  As a pure passer, Keim said Howell looks to him better than Alex Smith did.

 

I am not right now into fishing in the 2024 draft for another QB.  And if Howell's trajectory continues to climb i'd seriously doubt a new regime would want to start over.

 

But will see Howell still has more than half a season to play.

 

 

 

 

Edited October 22, 2023 by Skinsinparadise