The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Tress Is The Way]

Howell has a lot of similarities to another QB that was drafted here. They were both 3 year starters at their respective colleges, both played in FBS (ACC vs Big Ten) and both were considered higher picks but both dropped considerably (4th round and 5th round). Also very similar in their build. Arguably the man I'm talking about is the only QB in the last 20 years that has put up over 4k yards for this franchise. If Howell can replicate and not be a choke artist in big time games, I'd be happy with that.

Edited August 14, 2023 by Tress Is The Way

[FootballZombie]

35 minutes ago, MartinC said:

First rounders get more opportunities as well - the Jets and 49ers are still giving reps and opportunities to Lance and Wilson eve after they have had to go with other options as starters (for different reasons).  If Lance or Wilson were 5th round picks both would have been released by now. Sam won’t get the rope those guys have simply because the investment in him is so much lower.

 

That's where I sit on this whole argument.

 

Fair or not, high draft picks get starting opportunities handed to them, plus they get a ton of leash and repeated opportunities handed to them in the event they suck.

Sam Darnold can come out and be Sam Darnold, and his team will keep running him back simply due to what was invested in him.

 

Low round guys rarely get that, if ever. If they come out and look like Sam Darnold, they don't get a year 2. They have to come outta the box at a certain level of quality, enough to fight off the intrigue of replacement. The bar they have to clear is so much higher, and they get less safety netting to do it.

.

If Sam Howell starts week 1 and wants to be our QB next year, he can't suck. That is not exactly the case for Young or Stroud. They are almost assured the opportunity to grow over the course of years, not games.

[Going Commando]

14 hours ago, Califan007 The Constipated said:

 

 

For the record, I'm not a huge fan of the stance of not giving coaches/GMs much credit for drafting a guy who ends up being a stud because drafting the player was seen as a "no-brainer"...That was used when drafting Jonathan Allen in 2017, didn't agree with it then, either. I don't think it requires an audacious or risky move or going out on a limb to give someone full credit for drafting someone who goes on to be a Pro Bowler, especially at QB. Parsing the level of credit given on a draft pick seems like a waste of time. If Howell turns into a legit top 10 QB and is here for the next 10 years, I'll be thanking Rivera for drafting him long after he hangs up his whistle.

 

Agreed.  And Ron absolutely has gone out on a very thin limb in committing to go with Howell for his make or break season.  It's a move that all of the outside observers think he is crazy for doing.  Also, drafting Howell was their hedge against Wentz not working out.  Not just that, one of the reasons they traded for Wentz in the first place is because they knew they wouldn't have to go all in on him because of his contract structure.  They also structured the trade to have an out on compensation, and they say him for Heinicke after it became clear he wouldn't work out in order to keep the second round pick.  They definitely didn't go all in on him.  I didn't mind the Wentz trade and experiment specifically because I thought the potential reward could be high and the risk was pretty well mitigated.

 

Ron has gone all in on Howell though.  If Howell bombs, there is no chance Ron keeps his job, short of some miracle like Jacoby Brissett winning a Superbowl.  Even that might now work.  A one off miracle Superbowl run with a back up QB didn't save Doug Pederson's job for long.

[Koolblue13]

5 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

Agreed.  And Ron absolutely has gone out on a very thin limb in committing to go with Howell for his make or break season.  It's a move that all of the outside observers think he is crazy for doing.  Also, drafting Howell was their hedge against Wentz not working out.  Not just that, one of the reasons they traded for Wentz in the first place is because they knew they wouldn't have to go all in on him because of his contract structure.  They also structured the trade to have an out on compensation, and they say him for Heinicke after it became clear he wouldn't work out in order to keep the second round pick.  They definitely didn't go all in on him.  I didn't mind the Wentz trade and experiment specifically because I thought the potential reward could be high and the risk was pretty well mitigated.

 

Ron has gone all in on Howell though.  If Howell bombs, there is no chance Ron keeps his job, short of some miracle like Jacoby Brissett winning a Superbowl.  Even that might now work.  A one off miracle Superbowl run with a back up QB didn't save Doug Pederson's job for long.

What were Rons options at QB this offseason that were clear upgrades to Sam, who the team was already standing up for?

[Chump Bailey]

56 minutes ago, DJHJR86 said:

It was one preseason game.  Nothing changed my mind either way about Howell.  He's still a huge wildcard.  But he is leaps and bounds better than this cringe ginger from last year.

I still will never understand the signing of Wentz despite all the red flags. The thumbs down was for Wentz - not your thoughts by the way

Edited August 14, 2023 by Chump Bailey

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

What were Rons options at QB this offseason that were clear upgrades to Sam, who the team was already standing up for?

 

I've asked this a couple of times and haven't really received an answer.

 

Wentz experiment was over. He Who Must Not Be Named was gone. No good FAs were going to come here. No trades were going to happen due to the ownership change. We weren't in a position to draft a QB in the 1st round. 

 

What were Ron's options?

[KDawg]

6 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I've asked this a couple of times and haven't really received an answer.

 

Wentz experiment was over. He Who Must Not Be Named was gone. No good FAs were going to come here. No trades were going to happen due to the ownership change. We weren't in a position to draft a QB in the 1st round. 

 

What were Ron's options?

 

The answer many will give is that they wanted Aaron Rodgers or some other high fantasy QB that wasn't going to come here. 

[Going Commando]

5 minutes ago, Koolblue13 said:

What were Rons options at QB this offseason that were clear upgrades to Sam, who the team was already standing up for?

 

He had plenty of different options.  He could have drafted Hendon Hooker or Will Levis.  He could have gone after any of the vet QBs who changed teams this winter.  He could have traded for somebody's back up. 

 

You say "that would have been a clear upgrade over Howell" as if Howell's value is some widely understood no brainier situation.  Let me tell you that nobody, and I truly mean nobody, outside of DC thinks sitting tight on Howell in a make or break year is a good move right now.  Howell is the reason everyone in the outside world currently thinks we suck, why Ron is sure to get fired, and why they are projecting us to finish last in the division and have a top six pick next year.  Look at all of the QB and roster assessments on ESPN this off-season.  All of them have Howell as the worst starting QB option in the league right now.   Our rankings and projections would probably go up on those just from benching him for Brissett.  Ron has shown discipline and long term vision with Howell that he hadn't previously shown with any of his other QB decisions.  It can not be taken for granted that this was the right or easy call to make.

[KDawg]

Just now, Going Commando said:

 

He had plenty of different options.  He could have drafted Hendon Hooker or Will Levis.  He could have gone after any of the vet QBs who changed teams this winter.  He could have traded for somebody's back up. 

 

You say "that would have been a clear upgrade over Howell" as if Howell's value is some widely understood no brainier situation.  Let me tell you that nobody, and I truly mean nobody, outside of DC thinks sitting tight on Howell in a make or break year is a good move right now.  Howell is the reason everyone in the outside world currently thinks we suck, why Ron is sure to get fired, and why they are projecting us to finish last in the division and have a top six pick next year.  Look at all of the QB and roster assessments on ESPN this off-season.  All of them have Howell as the worst starting QB option in the league right now.   Our rankings and projections would probably go up on those just from benching him for Brissett.  Ron has shown discipline and long term vision with Howell that he hadn't previously shown with any of his other QB decisions.  It can not be taken for granted that this was the right or easy call to make.

 

Hooker or Levis aren't seen as immediate upgrades, though. It's more kicking the can down the road and hoping.

 

I think signing Brissett was a better move than drafting Hooker or Levis.

 

And I think ditching Howell for one of them would have been disastrous if it didn't pan out. I think those guys were just as much risk as Howell. So why not play the guy you know?

 

It makes sense to me. 

[MartinC]

16 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

I've asked this a couple of times and haven't really received an answer.

 

Wentz experiment was over. He Who Must Not Be Named was gone. No good FAs were going to come here. No trades were going to happen due to the ownership change. We weren't in a position to draft a QB in the 1st round. 

 

What were Ron's options?

I don’t think he had many. Guys like Rogers or even Carr would not have agreed to come. 
 

It was guys like Brissett and/or roll with Sam. They did/do seem to think Sam had a chance and I think they are right. 

[RandyHolt]

I wonder if we were last in the league in practice scramble drills before EB was hired.

 

It's mind boggling to think teams wouldn't practice it significantly. Defensive guys get paid too. So on roughly half the plays, the defense wins. Its really short sighted to solely practice based on expected perfect offensive execution. We can call it the Mahomes factor but you know what, he may have gotten good at it from practicing it.

 

I am thrilled we have an OC smart enough to do scramble drills every day.  How often were they practiced last year? I may ask Keim but think I know the answer. Rarely.

Edited August 14, 2023 by RandyHolt

[Chris 44]

2 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I wonder if we were last in the league in practice scramble drills before EB was hired.

 

It's mind boggling to think teams wouldn't practice it significantly. Defensive guys get paid too. So on roughly half the plays, the defense wins. Its really short sighted to solely practice based on expected perfect offensive execution. We can call it the Mahomes factor but you know what, he may have gotten good at it from practicing it.

 

I am thrilled we have an OC smart enough to do scramble drills every day.  How often were they practiced last year? I may ask Keim.

That's a great point, not sure if it was EB or Howell who said recently that broken plays are still "plays" and should be practiced as such. The pass Howell made to Turner the other night was highlighted and an example of that (Turner adjusting and getting in a position for Howell to make the throw).

[Going Commando]

Just now, MartinC said:

I don’t think he had many. Guys like Rogers or even Carr would have agreed to come. 
 

It was guys like Brissett and/or roll with Sam. They did/do seem to think Sam had a chance and I think they are right. 

 

There were other paths.  Could have drafted a prospect in the first or second this year.  Could have traded for a current back up with starter upside like Davis Mills or Trey Lance.  They could have gotten into the Lamar Jackson trade discussions.  They could have traded for Tannehill.  They could have tried to court David Carr or Jimmy G.  They could have signed Baker Mayfield.  If they had done any of those things, the football world would rank our QB situation better than they do right now.  We here think the Sam Howell choice is a solid one because we see value in him that no one else does.  We think we got our own Dak Prescott or Jalen Hurts type situation, but nobody else sees that.  They think our FO is perplexing and incompetent.

[mistertim]

1 minute ago, Going Commando said:

 

There were other paths.  Could have drafted a prospect in the first or second this year.  Could have traded for a current back up with starter upside like Davis Mills or Trey Lance.  They could have gotten into the Lamar Jackson trade discussions.  They could have traded for Tannehill.  They could have tried to court David Carr or Jimmy G.  They could have signed Baker Mayfield.  If they had done any of those things, the football world would rank our QB situation better than they do right now.  We here think the Sam Howell choice is a solid one because we see value in him that no one else does.  We think we got our own Dak Prescott or Jalen Hurts type situation, but nobody else sees that.  They think our FO is perplexing and incompetent.

 

This is even more fantasy than actual fantasy football.

 

Absolutely no major trades were going to happen right in the middle of a change of ownership. None.

 

Absolutely no chance that big name FAs were going to come here. We were still known as the biggest dumpster fire in the league and we were in the middle of an ownership change which would bring potentially huge uncertainty for any QB. The idea of Carr coming here is especially hilarious, considering that the reason LV released him is because he refused to waive his no-trade clause. Which means he had a short list of places he wanted to go. And if you think we were on that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

[Koolblue13]

13 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

He had plenty of different options.  He could have drafted Hendon Hooker or Will Levis.  He could have gone after any of the vet QBs who changed teams this winter.  He could have traded for somebody's back up. 

 

You say "that would have been a clear upgrade over Howell" as if Howell's value is some widely understood no brainier situation.  Let me tell you that nobody, and I truly mean nobody, outside of DC thinks sitting tight on Howell in a make or break year is a good move right now.  Howell is the reason everyone in the outside world currently thinks we suck, why Ron is sure to get fired, and why they are projecting us to finish last in the division and have a top six pick next year.  Look at all of the QB and roster assessments on ESPN this off-season.  All of them have Howell as the worst starting QB option in the league right now.   Our rankings and projections would probably go up on those just from benching him for Brissett.  Ron has shown discipline and long term vision with Howell that he hadn't previously shown with any of his other QB decisions.  It can not be taken for granted that this was the right or easy call to make.

No prime vet was agreeing to come here. Howell may have been doubted by the league, but not in our lockerroom. 

 

 It was obvious that Howell was QB1 going into this season from the inside. That was his only real option.

 

He's had several years to address QB in the draft, even later round prospects, but we have Fromm who's never going to play. That could be a spot held by a developmental QB.

 

Poorly addressing OL and TE this offseason, not playing Howell or getting him starting reps at the end of last year, when we knew Heinicke wasn't the answer and either was Wentz, was a failure on Ron as well.

 

What we have is the best case scenario.

 

I don't know Ron for passing Herbert or Tua, but he did pass on Hurts. 

[Going Commando]

1 minute ago, mistertim said:

Absolutely no major trades were going to happen right in the middle of a change of ownership. None.

 

Absolutely no chance that big name FAs were going to come here. We were still known as the biggest dumpster fire in the league and we were in the middle of an ownership change which would bring potentially huge uncertainty for any QB. The idea of Carr coming here is especially hilarious, considering that the reason LV released him is because he refused to waive his no-trade clause. Which means he had a short list of places he wanted to go. And if you think we were on that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

 

You repeating this doesn't make it true.  You know what else people thought was impossible during the sale?  Extending Daron.  Signing free agents at other positions.  Why do you think the FO wasn't free to trade their draft picks and players just because the team was being sold?  Who exactly would have stopped them?  How many suitors did David Carr and Jimmy Garappolo have?  You really think there is no chance that a couple of mid-grade starters like them would have listened to a team with cap space and a starting job opening?

[FootballZombie]

5 minutes ago, RandyHolt said:

I wonder if we were last in the league in practice scramble drills before EB was hired.

 

It's mind boggling to think teams wouldn't practice it significantly

 

Ehhh

 

The only thing worse than the QBs we had last year were those QBs throwing on the run.

I have very little complaint in not practicing something that would result in coaches suffocating everyone around them from the strength of their inhale when they see it in game.

 

 

2 minutes ago, mistertim said:

Absolutely no chance that big name FAs were going to come here. We were still known as the biggest dumpster fire in the league and we were in the middle of an ownership change which would bring potentially huge uncertainty for any QB. The idea of Carr coming here is especially hilarious, considering that the reason LV released him is because he refused to waive his no-trade clause. Which means he had a short list of places he wanted to go. And if you think we were on that, I've got a bridge to sell you.

 

I'd have at least tried to chase Carr too.

 

From my standpoint just assuming someone won't come is just making the choice for other people.

Are we a desirable destination, no. But we are still a destination

Go out and sell some ice to an eskimo

Make him tell you no.

[KDawg]

So to those saying we should have chased some of these vets... Why do we think we didn't?

[mistertim]

8 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

You repeating this doesn't make it true.  You know what else people thought was impossible during the sale?  Extending Daron.  Signing free agents at other positions.  Why do you think the FO wasn't free to trade their draft picks and players just because the team was being sold?  Who exactly would have stopped them?  How many suitors did David Carr and Jimmy Garappolo have?  You really think there is no chance that a couple of mid-grade starters like them would have listened to a team with cap space and a starting job opening?

 

Who in ownership is going to sign off on some big trade? You think there's any way Dan was going to entertain any of that crap? And there's no way Dan would have had things set up to where his FO could trade picks without him giving the OK. If you think they could do anything like that without his explicit buy in, you're deluding yourself.

 

We don't know how many suitors Carr had. But we do know that he had a short list of places he would agree to go, hence why LV had to release him after he refused to waive his no-trade clause. And I'm guessing he probably had at least one or two teams other than NO trying to get him. The idea that we would have even gotten a return phone call from him is just silly.

 

Jimmy G, who knows how many suitors. But I'm guessing more than one or two, so he probably had choices. A guy that has choices isn't going to come to an organization that's been the league's dumpster fire for years and who is currently in the middle of a ton of uncertainty due to ownership change, which could easily bring overhauls in coaching, FO, and everything else.

 

So yeah, I think there's next to no chance that Carr or Jimmy G would have been interested.

Edited August 14, 2023 by mistertim

[Wildbunny]

4 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So to those saying we should have chased some of these vets... Why do we think we didn't?

I would guess the main reason we stayed out of it was because of The Sale.

[MartinC]

23 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

 

There were other paths.  Could have drafted a prospect in the first or second this year.  Could have traded for a current back up with starter upside like Davis Mills or Trey Lance.  They could have gotten into the Lamar Jackson trade discussions.  They could have traded for Tannehill.  They could have tried to court David Carr or Jimmy G.  They could have signed Baker Mayfield.  If they had done any of those things, the football world would rank our QB situation better than they do right now.  We here think the Sam Howell choice is a solid one because we see value in him that no one else does.  We think we got our own Dak Prescott or Jalen Hurts type situation, but nobody else sees that.  They think our FO is perplexing and incompetent.

Of those I think the draft or Baker Mayfield were the only realistic options. Maybe Jimmy G. 
 

I don’t think guys like Jackson etc with options would have considered coming here. 
 

I didn’t like draft options this year so agreed with not trading up. Levis as the guy who was the option and I 100% agreed with not going with him. 
 

Essentially the decision was Sam is a better option than Levis and Mayfield. Which I completely agree with personally. Now whether Sam becomes a Prescott let alone a Hurts remains to be seen. 

[Renegade7]

2 minutes ago, KDawg said:

So to those saying we should have chased some of these vets... Why do we think we didn't?

 

This question only matters if Howell doesn't work out. 

 

Plenty of names have come out of the years and debated with either speculation or tangible answers as to "why we didn't" for each of them.

 

The potential with Howell at least being servicable on rookie contract a lot of options even I've pushed for over the last 4 years, I don't want to see like I'm hiding from this one, just feels like going in circles when we're possibly in a good enough a lot where it worked out and any specific answers don't really matter except for healthy debate on them for this thread.

 

Speaking out loud...

[Going Commando]

The fact that so many of you think the decision to go with some 5th round second year QB with one start as his long term starter doesn't take vision and balls, that it is some kind of no-brainer choice for which Ron and company deserve no credit, tells me how out of touch this board has grown.  If Sam Howell actually works out, it would be a stunning feather in the cap for this regime.  They would be celebrated by the football world for making that call.  And if that happens, am I still going to be reading these awful "Ron deserves ZERO credit for Sam Howell" takes in two or three years?

[MartinC]

2 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

The fact that so many of you think the decision to go with some 5th round second year QB with one start as his long term starter doesn't take vision and balls, that it is some kind of no-brainer choice for which Ron and company deserve no credit, tells me how out of touch this board has grown.  If Sam Howell actually works out, it would be a stunning feather in the cap for this regime.  They would be celebrated by the football world for making that call.  And if that happens, am I still going to be reading these awful "Ron deserves ZERO credit for Sam Howell" takes in two or three years?

Completely agree with this. Even if it took luck we got him riding with him as the starter rather than drafting a Will Levis or bringing in Mayfield took balls. They have to like what they have seen in practice and meeting rooms.

[KDawg]

4 minutes ago, Going Commando said:

The fact that so many of you think the decision to go with some 5th round second year QB with one start as his long term starter doesn't take vision and balls, that it is some kind of no-brainer choice for which Ron and company deserve no credit, tells me how out of touch this board has grown.  If Sam Howell actually works out, it would be a stunning feather in the cap for this regime.  They would be celebrated by the football world for making that call.  And if that happens, am I still going to be reading these awful "Ron deserves ZERO credit for Sam Howell" takes in two or three years?

I never said it didn’t take some dedication to Howell and some risk.

 

it did.

 

But so did every other move.

 

I actually think he made the right move while simultaneously making the easiest move.