The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[CobraCommander]

3 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

He was great last night.

I feel like we've known he was legit since week 1. Only problem is our QB can't get his receivers the ball consistently. 

[Koolblue13]

2 minutes ago, CobraCommander said:

I don't know why flounders get such a bad rap, they're delicious. Did you know some species lay on the bottom with their right side on top and other with their left side, and sometimes a species that's left side up will have one fish born that is right side up and vise versa. Fascinating and yummy.

 

 

catching them is great entertainment for kids at the jersey shore.

 

I don't know why people say mother****er as an insult either.

[zCommander]

1 minute ago, Ball Security said:

No, I don’t blame him for the 2020 draft.  Not at all.  It’d be awesome to have Herbert, but that’s revisionist history.

 

But what has he done in three years (or in his career) to show he can improve the position?

 

Do you think he’s done a good job building this line?

 

I was pushing hard to start TH this year and since this year draft was good to pickup guys to fix the lines on both sides. This is what should have been done and we would still have drafted Howell - but no Jahan though but at least the money and picks saved from the Wentz deal would have been a lot better than what it is now. This I blame on Dan. At least by getting a new owner who is not going to meddle should help any coach make the right decisions. 

[FLSkinz83]

13 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

As discussed here, alternating QBs.  If so Wentz in the red zone. 

 

..Inside the low red zone, Heinicke has completed just eight of his 24 attempts (33 percent). It is the lowest mark in the NFL by nearly 10 percent. Since 2000, out of 752 qualified quarterback seasons, Heinicke’s completion percentage this year is tied for 727th.

 

In the most critical situations, it’s even worse. On third and fourth down, Heinicke has completed one of 11 passes (9.1 percent). Since 2000, the only quarterback to attempt double-digit passes inside the low red zone and have a worse completion percentage was Chicago rookie Justin Fields in 2021 (0-for-10).

 

https://www.washingtonpost.com/sports/2022/12/19/commanders-red-zone/

 

What are Wentz's numbers in the red zone?     I think he was pretty good the first 2 weeks and then not so good the next 4 weeks.

[Ball Security]

8 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

I was pushing hard to start TH this year and since this year draft was good to pickup guys to fix the lines on both sides. This is what should have been done and we would still have drafted Howell - but no Jahan though but at least the money and picks saved from the Wentz deal would have been a lot better than what it is now. This I blame on Dan. At least by getting a new owner who is not going to meddle should help any coach make the right decisions. 

Is your position that Snyder is to blame for the offensive line construction and it’s not on Rivera?  Did Snyder also make him sign William Jackson III?

 

Hard to say if this team would be better off if we swapped Dotson for Kenyon Green or Zion Johnson.

[Skinsinparadise]

[Skinsinparadise]

20 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

What are Wentz's numbers in the red zone?     I think he was pretty good the first 2 weeks and then not so good the next 4 weeks.

 

Don't know but considering he has the same number of TDs in two less games including the game he played with a broken finger as part of the soup -- and the WP just showed, Heinicke as at the bottom of some of those metrics, I'd guess better??

Edited December 19, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[The Consigliere]

31 minutes ago, zCommander said:

 

If you really look at the history of this organization the only coach who lasted more than 5 years was Gruden. 

 

So yeah it would be easier to get a legit QB or if Howell is that guy. Our D is really good. We have great playmakers on offense as well. So yeah right now we are a QB away and a fortified OL and adding more to the D as well. 

This is what hurts so much about the turn around. If the team had just imploded after that 1-4 start, we're sitting pretty with a good and reasonably deep QB class (3-4 guys going top 5-10), but then we reel off a 6-1-1 half season and that is now a pipe dream. If we can tank our way to a 1-3 finish or 0-4 finish, there's still a possibility we pick top 8-12, and from there, taking the last of the blue chippers and/or trading up is possible. It also helps a ton that we now (I believe anyway) have only wasted a 3rd rather than a 2nd on Wentz. There's a lot that could go well or badly with how these last 3 play out. There's a huge batch of teams sitting in the 5-7 win area right now:

5 wins: 4 teams

6 wins: 5 teams

7 wins: 6 teams

4 wins and under (unreachables): 6

 

So a ton of this is is going to fluctuate in terms of draft slotting over the next few weeks. Unfortunately we'll lose most tie breakers (opponents win percentage) but there are a few teams we could hop ahead of on that. Also worth noting 2 of the 15 teams in that 5-7 zone are basically locks to make the playoffs due to the division being hot garbage (NFC and AFC South), so if we can lose 2 of 3 or 3 of 3, we have a chance to climb into the 8-12 zone probably and there are a ton of QB's that could go in round 1, seems like the floor right now is 4. 

 

I imagine the brass would rather trade for Carr or something, but please, for the love of all that is good stop the madness w/regards to stopgap QB trades. This has worked when exactly? The 1970's and Brad Johnson (which was a crazy overpay)? Since then it's been Boonell, McNabb, Alex Smith, and Wentz, and just spinning our wheels. One can only hope we actually draft one this year and use the 2nd on the best available OL I suppose? 

 

 

 

 

[FLSkinz83]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Don't know but considering he has the same number of TDs in two less games including the game he played with a broken finger as part of the soup -- and the WP just showed, Heinicke as at the bottom of some of those metrics, I'd guess better??

 

They scored 47 points in his last 4 starts...it can't be that much better.   7 of his 10 TD's were in the first two games, so it probably skews the stats.

 

 

[The Consigliere]

2 hours ago, KDawg said:

 

They absolutely can go with Howell. It just is a big cahone move. If it works, you find a franchise level QB, can be set at the position to worry about shoring up other important needs and you may be in the playoffs.

 

If it doesn't work Rivera's seat is a bit warmer, it puts an emphasis on QB in the offseason.

+10,000 

 

But I agree w/the general consensus that it isn't happening. I wish it was. It suits every interest: Find out what he has, to help figure out whether or not we should go QB in round 1 next year or not, and he probably gives us the best chance to win (Wentz theoretically does but we have more than enough evidence w/Wentz that he's an empty stats guy). 

 

[zCommander]

10 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Is your position that Snyder is to blame for the offensive line construction and it’s not on Rivera?  Did Snyder also make him sign William Jackson III?

 

Hard to say if this team would be better off if we swapped Dotson for Kenyon Green or Zion Johnson.

 

Dan was so giddy that we finally have ourselves a legit QB. That should tell you something. Also kinda of hard to buy or retain players when you don't have the money. 

[FLSkinz83]

@Skinsinparadise Based on those passing grades, would you be in favor of signing Andy Dalton?    

[Ball Security]

1 minute ago, zCommander said:

 

Dan was so giddy that we finally have ourselves a legit QB. That should tell you something. Also kinda of hard to buy or retain players when you don't have the money. 

Do you think the money that was spent on Jackson could have been used for something better?  Is that on Snyder or Rivera?

[wit33]

 

 

1 hour ago, ntotoro said:

 

Ironically, it was the two Heiney turnovers that lost the game. I know you find zero fault with him, though.

 

The Defense is basically responsible for one bad drive. If you give up 10-13 points in a game, you're going above and beyond what is expected from an NFL Defense, in terms of holding teams.

The defense was solid to good. A good enough effort to win. 
 

The defense is the lead act and they didn’t play at a high enough level with everything on the line. It’s not just about stats or points, it’s Daniel Jones and the offense managing to remain in their comfort zone for much of the day. No doubt, the offense failing to apply any pressure on the scoreboar

 

1 hour ago, BatteredFanSyndrome said:

The only reasons folks are railing on the defense is because of the expectation that they should dominate every opponent, force turnovers, and flip field position regularly.  This expectation is only there because it’s how we’ve won even though these folks are the ones telling us it’s because the guys play for Heinicke of whom is cerebral and crafty in the pocket and doesn’t take sacks.  🤔

The defense was solid, nothing great. With that said, the lack of Washington offense allowed for the Giants remain in comfort zone for much of the game. Stating the obvious, you can’t let that poor offense of Giants March it down 98 yards. 
 

Washington must have complimentary football to win and the offense didn’t do enough. Definitely more on the offense than defense. 

 

1 hour ago, TradeTheBeal! said:

Yes.  And then we give HineyHiney the credit.

Who really has given him the credit? It seems the debate is more level of contribution. Haven’t seen even on this board anyone giving him credit. I hope this isn’t the case lol 

[Skinsinparadise]

12 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

@Skinsinparadise Based on those passing grades, would you be in favor of signing Andy Dalton?    

 

I knew that one was coming.  But yeah small sample sizes has some crazy outliers always with PFF stuff, but not a ton.  It doesn't matter who and what outfit is grading Taylor, they all have him somewhere from bad to atrocious.  

[redskinss]

Hundreds of pages of debating whether our win streak was due to elite defense or moxie sprinkled with pixie dust layered with MOJO and all it took was one average performance from the defense to settle it.

[FLSkinz83]

2 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I knew that one was coming.  But yeah small sample sizes has some crazy outliers always with PFF stuff, but not a ton.  It doesn't matter who and what outfit is grading Taylor, they all have him somewhere from bad to atrocious.  

 

I actually don't mind Dalton.  I'd be perfectly fine with Dalton, TH and Howell going into next year.  

[CjSuAvE22]

What haop

Just now, redskinss said:

Hundreds of pages of debating whether our win streak was due to elite defense or moxie sprinkled with pixie dust layered with MOJO and all it took was one average performance from the defense to settle it.

Lol average defensive play is giving up 17-20 ptsn… they gave up 13 id say they had an above average game 

[Skinsinparadise]

23 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

They scored 47 points in his last 4 starts...it can't be that much better.   7 of his 10 TD's were in the first two games, so it probably skews the stats.

 

 

 

You used to be one of Wentz's biggest fans in the off season.   Now?     And this is coming from a dude who was out on Wentz pretty early this season.  So I got no love for Wentz. 

 

Early games count less than the later games?  And the game he played with a broken finger weighs as 25% for your generalization of his starts.

 

It doesn't come like you want an honest debate.  Feels more like defense firm:  Heinicke, Heinicke and Heinicke

 

And personally, I am not even sure what I'd do.  And i don't care much for either QB. 

 

Those pushing Wentz like to say

 

A.  Higher upside.  they can stretch the field better with him -- better for play action.

 

B.  He didn't have the defense on fire the way Heinicke did.  And the game that a defender called the one where the defense turned the tide, the Bears game, they won.  If it was Taylor winning, we know it would be credited to his moxie and his intangibles pulled them through, of course. 

 

C.  O line is bad but some say its not as bad as early in the season.   Tre Truner isn't as banged up and has played better and Nick Martin was a train wreck. It's what some beat guys have said they've heard from the team.  Some like Logan Paulsen who studies this offense has said the same.  Looking at average time to throw in the pocket, between Heinicke and Wentz, those numbers bear out.

 

D.  Running game better now, Brian Robinson is now a factor.

 

E.  More time to know the system.

 

So do I buy that Wentz has a better shot to succeed now versus then?  Yes.

 

But why do I think its not an easy call.

 

A.  Is it possible that Wentz can get destroyed in the pocket against the defenses coming up now?  Sure do.    Heinicke with better wiggle in the pocket and I liked that he ran for a change last night.

 

B.  I do trust Heinicke much more than Wentz in big moments and big moment games and at this point they are all big moment games thanks to last night.

 

 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[88Comrade2000]

2 hours ago, Zim489 said:

So how do we fix this mess moving forward.

We don't until 24.

[FLSkinz83]

14 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

You used to be one of Wentz's biggest fans in the off season.   Now?     And this is coming from a dude who was out on Wentz pretty early this season.  So I got no love for Wentz. 

 

Early games count less than the later games?  And the game he played with a broken finger weighs as 25% for your generalization of his starts.

 

It doesn't come like you want an honest debate.  Feels more like defense firm:  Heinicke, Heinicke and Heinicke

 

Whoa whoa whoa...hold on a sec....

 

I said this morning that this wasn't a debate about TH vs Wentz.   I like Wentz probably more than most.   I still like Wentz.    This has nothing to do with Wentz.

 

This is about Turner and the O-line and not really TH and Wentz.

[Zim489]

2 minutes ago, 88Comrade2000 said:

We don't until 24.

Well they better start preparing than. Cant finish with 7 wins in 2023 again and hope to get the QB spot fixed with the 3rd or 4th option in the draft yet again

[zCommander]

48 minutes ago, Ball Security said:

Do you think the money that was spent on Jackson could have been used for something better?  Is that on Snyder or Rivera?

 

If we had paid Wentz 13 mil for a year then we could have still had a OL to protect him. Jackson was a Ron move. .

[Skinsinparadise]

14 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

 

Whoa whoa whoa...hold on a sec....

 

I said this morning that this wasn't a debate about TH vs Wentz.   I like Wentz probably more than most.   I still like Wentz.    This has nothing to do with Wentz.

 

This is about Turner and the O-line and not really TH and Wentz.

 

In my specific posts:

 

A.  you questioned the premise of whether is Wentz is better than Heinicke in the RZ.   

 

B.  Then I've seen you in multiple posts talk about Wentz's stats by sticking to his last 4 games -- which seems odd considering:  A.  why not take the full sample?   B.  the Bears game, his last one, is a bit unfair to grade him considering he played that game hurt.  

 

So it didn't come off that you are trying to make Wentz look good at a minimum.  If I want a player to look worse, I'd also not take their full sample, and cherry pick the sample that makes them look worse and oversample the game when he wasn't right physically. 

 

Hence that's what I was wondering about.  But like I said i don't really care about Wentz or Heinicke.  And yes I do think they are the bigger problem over Scott Turner or the O line.  I am not sure what I think of Turner.   But I do trust my own eyes that Heinicke and Wentz are inaccurate whether under pressure or not and they are both lacking for multiple reasons.

 

I am optimitic about this roster.  I like the defense.  I like the Wrs.  I like the RBs.    And while I understand the correlation of O line play and QB play, I also don't think its that hard to isolate both as problems.  People like Paulsen, Jay Gruden, Cooley who are miles more smarter than me about offense to say the least -- echos these same points.

 

All I want for Christmas is Dan gone.  And the bonus would be a new Qb and serious O line upgrades. 

Edited December 19, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[88Comrade2000]

9 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

Well they better start preparing than. Cant finish with 7 wins in 2023 again and hope to get the QB spot fixed with the 3rd or 4th option in the draft yet again

23 will be a lost year.  Ron Will try another veteran, if he doesn't bring Wentz back with a reduced number. Ron will try to save his ass and get the new owner to give him an extension.   24 QB will be top priority and we likely give up picks and players to move up to draft that qb.

 

 

Nothing really happening in 23. Even if Dan sells,,expect him to slow walk the sale.