The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[mistertim]

@SkinsinparadiseIs that a report from someone who talked directly with the coaches about it or is it just an opinion piece?

[wit33]

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Your position on Kirk was hard to miss at the time because you were the lone wolf even among the Kirk detractors who thought Bruce played the trade compensation fine and a third comp pick was as good as it would get for him -- and you were very passionate about making that point too, just about any time I talked about reporters like Silvers who said otherwise, everyone else would nod but you'd tell me I am likely very wrong. I'll give that back then it wasn't 100% concrete but it has gotten plenty concrete since.

 

In my view, many were jaded by disdain for Bruce  and ignoring the unique variables to the Kirk situation. I hated the culture, but was ho hum on Bruce as team builder—mediocre like the other 80% in the NFL. 
 

I was factoring in Kirk and agent were demanding a never before done guaranteed contract into the trade compensation. You say the Niners were will to deal their top 5 pick and now potentially there other first round pick and give Kirk a guaranteed deal. Maybe, I’m not saying I know for certain, but remains a stretch for me. 
 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

I am not the only one who listened to Jay talk about this which he has multiple times and in detail, and if your takeaway is Jay had no idea what's going on -- lol, cool, i gather it means you are determined to double down on your take. 
 

 

From what I’ve heard from Jay, it’s been his opinion, not anything related to the actual process. Jay was last to know about the Smith trade, sounds like the Kirk situation was similar. 
 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

As for Mike Jones, nope his sources was Kyle himself both at the time when the offer was made and then later on afterwards.   
 

 

Would love to read or hear this. Can you share a link?

 

 

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

You can be cool with the compensation they got for Kirk.  I think along with everyone else I've seen comment on this that they blew it. 
 

 

I factor in a season of above average QB play into the compensation which gets ignored. A season of above QB play and chance at playoffs is borderline worth 1st or top of second round pick for me.

How about for you?

1 hour ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

But with the power of hindsight, i am super glad they blew it.  Ditto Bruce missing out on a better trade opporunity for Trent.  Well played, Bruce!    😀

 

If you listened to people on this board and a large contingent of the media Trent was a borderline top 5-10 LT and on the decline. I was on the other side in feeling like he’ll play until 40 and continue to be an All pro performer. My comparison was always a Jason Peters type freak. 
 

To your point, Bruce botched the Trent situation greatly. 
 

Last one for me on this topic. I felt this from you on your last post as well lol

Edited November 10, 2022 by wit33

[Renegade7]

 

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, mistertim said:

@SkinsinparadiseIs that a report from someone who talked directly with the coaches about it or is it just an opinion piece?

 

Thay was Standig speculating as to Wentz-Heinicke

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

In my view, many were jaded by disdain for Bruce  and ignoring the unique variables to the Kirk situation. I hated the culture, but was ho hum on Bruce as team builder—mediocre like the other 80% in the NFL. 
 

I was factoring in Kirk and agent were demanding a never before done guaranteed contract into the trade compensation. You say the Niners were will to deal their top 5 pick and now potentially there other first round pick and give Kirk a guaranteed deal. Maybe, I’m not saying I know for certain, but remains a stretch for me. 

 

You are acting like this is opinion still and you have a right to yours.   No one else is treating the topic as an opinion aside from yourself.  And you got me how you still see it this way.  I am guessing you don't want to be wrong on this.  but who cares?  We are all wrong on stuff. 

 

Yes back then at the time it initially was opinion-speculating and then that evolved from reporters saying this is what they heard and then this year it became super concrete.   From what i recall you were the only one who believed the compensation for Kirk made sense.  Even the straggler Bruce defenders thought while Bruce slayed other dragons in their minds well, he screwed up with the Kirk compensation.

 

I don't recall anyone agreeing with you then, whether it were the ones who were behind Kirk or Bruce.   And I recall you were very passionate about arguing that a third comp pick was well played by Bruce and he couldn't exceed that.  it was hard to miss your take because everytime I made the point otherwise, i'd have one person quickly arguing the opposite, and never letting my point rest on it and that person was you.  Just you.  

 

It's cool.  That's fine back then since there was at least some grey to the issue.  But to stick with your idea that its still opinion would be really more saying Mike Jones, Jay Gruden, and Kyle are liars.

 

Somehow you don't recall this being brought up previously where you are asking me about this as if the issue is fresh even though I brought this up directly to you months ago when both Jones and Jay talked about it.  Yet, you don't recall that at all.  Ditto other people talking about it here, you missed that too.  And you said you listened to Jay talk about it and your takeaway is Jay had no idea.    

 

To each their own, but lol i think you got a blind spot on this issue for whatever reason.   Its cool, if you still clinging to this belief, your mind isn't changing. 

 

2 hours ago, wit33 said:

 

 

 

Would love to read or hear this. Can you share a link?

 

 

 

No.  I am sure I can dig it up but it would be unfair to me to do the work.

 

It was awhile ago.  i shared it with you at the time.  In real time.   It surprises me that you forgot or lol or you just ignored the post considering it was more than one from me to you.  You were the first person I thought of when Jones talked about it and later Jay considering your position was so unique on the Kirk compensation.  The Kirk supporters and detractors united on one issue, just one, and that was the compensation was a screw up by Bruce -- you from what i recall were the lone exception who disagreed with both camps on that.

Edited November 10, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[mistertim]

I didn't even remember that there was someone who thought Bruce did fine in the compensation for Kirk deal. That's an...interesting take.

[Voice_of_Reason]

5 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

 

 

This must have been written by Dr. Sabah. 

 

"Savant in OC Scott Turner's scheme?"

 

Really?

 

I don't know the source, but whoever it is is pretty stupid.  

[Skinsinparadise]

5 minutes ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

This must have been written by Dr. Sabah. 

 

"Savant in OC Scott Turner's scheme?"

 

Really?

 

I don't know the source, but whoever it is is pretty stupid.  

 

Standig

[Voice_of_Reason]

37 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

Standig

I never knew Standig was also Dr. Sabah.  Wow.  Fascinating.  

[JSSkinz]

6 hours ago, mistertim said:

@SkinsinparadiseIs that a report from someone who talked directly with the coaches about it or is it just an opinion piece?

Ron was asked  at his presser today, "Would you return Carson to the lineup when he's ready",

Ron's answer "You're most certainly getting ahead of yourself I told you guys we'll play the game and I'll decide when its time to.

 

I think he's he's planning on going back to Wentz but he knows if Heinicke beats Philly it would be hard to bench him, just my opinion but why else would he say that unless he's thinking about playing Sam.

Edited November 11, 2022 by JSSkinz

[mistertim]

14 minutes ago, JSSkinz said:

Ron was asked  at his presser today, "Would you return Carson to the lineup when he's ready",

Ron's answer "You're most certainly getting ahead of yourself I told you guys we'll play the game and I'll decide when its time to.

 

I think he's he's planning on going back to Wentz but he knows if Heinicke beats Philly it would be hard to bench him, just my opinion but why else would he say that unless he's thinking about playing Sam.

 

I think for some time now Ron and the FO have been quite clear that they don't see Heinicke as a starter. IMO for him to stick with Heinicke past when Wentz is healthy, Heinicke would have to suddenly become dominant. Not improve a little bit, but just suddenly start taking over games with his arm. Which isn't going to happen.

 

I think once Wentz is healthy there's about a 95% chance we're going back to him, a 4% chance we're going with Howell, and 1% chance we're sticking with Heinicke.

[Est.1974]

I think we’d all agree, I think anyway, that going back to Wentz would be a very short sighted move by Rivera. The right move at this stage for the team heading into 2023 is to get Howell reps or at the very least fight on with Heinicke.

 

It will be a very telling decision IMO.

[Always A Commander Never A Captain]

Speaking of this, have we heard anything on Wentz's health? It was what a 4-6 week injury, and it's been 3.5 weeks?

[Professor_Nutter_Butter]

Just now, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Speaking of this, have we heard anything on Wentz's health? It was what a 4-6 week injury, and it's been 3.5 weeks?

I think Rivera's been pretty hit or miss on actual updates.

[RandyHolt]

4 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I think we’d all agree, I think anyway, that going back to Wentz would be a very short sighted move by Rivera. The right move at this stage for the team heading into 2023 is to get Howell reps or at the very least fight on with Heinicke.

 

It will be a very telling decision IMO.

I fully expect RR to go back to Wentz. We paid way too much and had way too many OL injuries to grade him under Turner for Ron to give up on him so soon. Playoffs aren't yet out of reach.  If Taylor had won every game I could see Wentz riding the pine. Dat INT didn't help your argument.

 

Howell - who is a starting NFL comp for him - maybe Ehlinger? That doesn't help your argument much either as he's the worst QB in the league. Or viable backup comp - Chase Daniel? Or even out of the game. Don't even mention Drew Brees. Dan never tanks and bet Ron doesn't either. 

 

There are plenty of games left to sit Carson at years end to make that 2nd a 3rd and get Howell graded in game action.

Edited November 11, 2022 by RandyHolt

[skinny21]

15 hours ago, mistertim said:

 

I think for some time now Ron and the FO have been quite clear that they don't see Heinicke as a starter. IMO for him to stick with Heinicke past when Wentz is healthy, Heinicke would have to suddenly become dominant. Not improve a little bit, but just suddenly start taking over games with his arm. Which isn't going to happen.

 

I think once Wentz is healthy there's about a 95% chance we're going back to him, a 4% chance we're going with Howell, and 1% chance we're sticking with Heinicke.

Prior to the game against the Vikes, there was (IMO) a question of whether

1) a part of the team’s success was a synergy element between the offense and defense (which is a bit difficult to qualify)

2) Heinicke’s movement skills made enough of a difference in regards to pass pro issues - sacks are often drive killers afterall

3) his late game “magic”, while not something that can be counted on game to game, was able to help put the team in the win column more often than not.

 

And there was a lot of context within that - the defense playing better (ie, the main reason we were in games at all), leaning on the ground game, the fact we’re comparing TH to Wentz, not other starting qbs around the league, etc.

 

Seeing how he played vs the Vikes though, and knowing/presuming he and the offense are almost certainly going to struggle, or even look completely woeful/inept vs the Eagles… I just can’t see him retaining the starting role.

 

Heinicke will be the sacrificial lamb to the Eagles, and the staff likely turns to Wentz after.  If he looks terrible, I’d hope the staff turns to Howell, similar to the Colts turning to Ehlinger - not blaming things on Carson per say, but realizing they haven’t put him in a position to succeed.

 

Of course, if by some miracle Heinicke has success vs the Eagles, they almost have to ride with him a bit longer.

 

[Warhead36]

Yeah I think we go back to Wentz after the Eagles game unless Heinicke is just amazing and we win and even then, it'd be a debate.

 

Howell won't see a snap barring injuries until we're mathematically eliminated and even then I'm not sure.

[skinny21]

3 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Yeah I think we go back to Wentz after the Eagles game unless Heinicke is just amazing and we win and even then, it'd be a debate.

 

Howell won't see a snap barring injuries until we're mathematically eliminated and even then I'm not sure.

Man, if we don’t see Howell after being mathematically eliminated, that would be a massive mistake by Ron, IMO.  Giving up our chance to get a sense of what we have in Howell and giving up our 2nd rd pick?  Shoot me.

 

I do have one caveat to this though.  If Wentz is playing some excellent football, I could see the staff (knowing at that point they’re planning on bringing him back) wanting to give him as many reps as possible.  I think the chances of that (especially given our pass pro problems) are about on par with Heinicke having a great game vs the Eagles and holding on to the starting gig - slightly above zero.

[Warhead36]

Just now, skinny21 said:

Man, if we don’t see Howell after being mathematically eliminated, that would be a massive mistake by Ron, IMO.  Giving up our chance to get a sense of what we have in Howell and giving up our 2nd rd pick?  Shoot me.

 

Which is exactly why I expect them to do that. That's how this franchise operates.

[mistertim]

4 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Which is exactly why I expect them to do that. That's how this franchise operates.

 

Yeah basically. Our team, playing ****ty, but managing to win a couple of squeakers and not yet being absolutely 100% eliminated from a wildcard spot at the halfway point of the season:

 

[PigskinRedskin]

39 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Yeah basically. Our team, playing ****ty, but managing to win a couple of squeakers and not yet being absolutely 100% eliminated from a wildcard spot at the halfway point of the season:

 

 

Reality:

 

[Voice_of_Reason]

7 hours ago, Est.1974 said:

I think we’d all agree, I think anyway, that going back to Wentz would be a very short sighted move by Rivera. The right move at this stage for the team heading into 2023 is to get Howell reps or at the very least fight on with Heinicke.

 

It will be a very telling decision IMO.

I don't agree.  First, who knows who is going to own the team next year and who is going to be making decisions.  So, for now, I'm going to put that aside.  All of this could be for nothing.  If the deal closes in enough time (doubtful, but possible), new owner could just wipe everybody out and an entirely new group could be making decisions.  But that's completely unknown, so I'm just setting that aside.

 

Ron wants to win.  And he should.  The fact is the team has enough talent to win.  There are 2 groups which are holding the team back, and they are related: The OL and the QB. 

 

Let's assume the most probably case: we get beat, probably somewhere between moderately badly to embarrassed, by the Eagles on Monday night and TH looks basically like he has his last 10 starts going back to the last 2 games of the winning streak last year, which is dreadful minus a few moxie-magic moments.  

 

You can not, and I mean CAN NOT trot TH out again against Houston and Atlanta if Wentz is healthy. 

 

The entire NFL minus maybe Ron and Scott, and a few completely brainwashed media idiots who like the guy because of his personality and moxie, know TH should be back on a couch somewhere (now it will be his own and a much nicer one) and entering the job market in whatever he was studying at ODU because the dude cannot play professional football.  He might be great in the XFL.  But, he really should be out of the NFL.  He can't do it.  

 

So given everybody with a brain knows that, they need to go back to Wentz with the season still in the balance.  The OL is slightly better than it was for the Detroit/Dallas/Eagles run, because at least Larsen is back, and Turner and Norwell have risen from just falling down to at least attempting to make a block before falling down.  This is a massive improvement for them. 

 

So, you have to give it a shot with Wentz to see what happens the next 2 games, assuming he's back for both the Houston and Atlanta games.  

 

I think the magic number is 8 losses.  Once you get to 8 losses, it's Howell time. 

 

 

4 hours ago, Always A Commander Never A Captain said:

Speaking of this, have we heard anything on Wentz's health? It was what a 4-6 week injury, and it's been 3.5 weeks?

He has started to toss the football, light throw/catch.  Ron said this in his weekly sit-down with WP.  

 

53 minutes ago, Warhead36 said:

Which is exactly why I expect them to do that. That's how this franchise operates.

I dunno.  I think Ron is smart enough to know if he's still here, he wants the second round pick and to see what Howell has to plan for next year.  There is nothing to be gained for him to start Wentz in meaningless games.  There's REALLY nothing to be gained from playing TH ever.  

[Skinsinparadise]

Heinicke leads the league among starters as to interceptable passes according to PFF, over 8% of his passes are up for grabs according to them.  It's the TWP% stat. 

 

I know @Koolblue13, @Voice of Reason among others think Heinicke is the future, but maybe we should pause?😀

 

 

Edited November 11, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[FLSkinz83]

QB's will have more bad passes when the pass protection is subpar.   

 

I'm not saying TH or Howell are the future, but it's a lot easier upgrading an O-Coordinator and O-line than it is finding a top notch QB.

[Voice_of_Reason]

51 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

Heinicke leads the league among starters as to interceptable passes according to PFF, over 8% of his passes are up for grabs according to them.  It's the TWP% stat. 

 

I know @Koolblue13, @Voice of Reason among others think Heinicke is the future, but maybe we should pause?😀

We need a new stat: murder balls.  I'd bet TH leads the league in those as well.  He got Turner killed in his second game, sent to the blue-tent and then into concussion protocol,  almost sent ... I can't remember who, to the ER with an inside-out chest on a screen to the outside which was thrown late and took 7 minutes to get there.  It might have been Samuel.

 

There are at least 2 more.  One was to Terry but he somehow managed to not get killed.  I don't remember the other one.

 

I put the over-under at 2.5 players send to the blue tent when he came in.  I think I'm at 2, though it's remarkable Samuel is alive after he got rocked for a 4 yard loss on that dead duck screen.  I'm pretty sure I get it on Monday night.  In fact, I'm pretty sure it will soar over.  I just hope he doesn't end McLaurin's season.  That would be unfortunate.  

 

God, his mere presence as an NFL player has started to offend me.  

46 minutes ago, FLSkinz83 said:

QB's will have more bad passes when the pass protection is subpar.   

 

I'm not saying TH or Howell are the future, but it's a lot easier upgrading an O-Coordinator and O-line than it is finding a top notch QB.

Howell might be able to play in the NFL.

 

TH cannot.  He could have played for the 1991 Redskins and they would have finished 7-9.  And if Gibbs wasn't the coach, they would have probably been 2-14.

 

Bill Walsh couldn't have created an offense which would have made TH a good QB.   Better than Turner?  Yes.  Anywhere approaching passable? No.