The Official QB Thread- JD5 taken #2. Randall 2.0 or Bayou Bob? Mariotta and Hartman forever. Fromm cut

[Zim489]

if they truly consider this they all need to be fired. Would show they are either unserious about winning or completely misunderstand the game 

[Riggo#44]

32 minutes ago, D’Pablo said:

I would rather draft a QB in the first round over the next three years than send those picks over to a team for a past-their-prime QB in their 30’s. The Rams had years of success before selling the farm for their QB. We’re not there yet.

I am not a "only the QB matters" person--Bills and Chiefs have 2 of the best, but their defenses faltered in each of their losses. It still takes a team. However, I patently disagree with this idea that we're not there yet. Neither were the Bucs before Brady:

 

The Bengals before Burrow:

 

I think we have a good enough team where we add a QB and we are a playoff lock.

[No Nonsense]

5 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

if they truly consider this they all need to be fired. Would show they are either unserious about winning or completely misunderstand the game 

No way is Jimmy G worth a 1st rounder. 

[Riggo#44]

8 minutes ago, Zim489 said:

if they truly consider this they all need to be fired. Would show they are either unserious about winning or completely misunderstand the game 

 

I believe we are a QB away. Just not THAT QB...

[Skinsinparadise]

My point isn't to abandon the draft.  You would be hard pressed to find too many more draft obsessed dudes on this board than me.  I live for the draft.  Heck I am toying with flying out to see this draft in person.   My family jokes that draft day is Christmas and my birthday all wrapped up in one.

 

My points are basically context is everything.  IMO there are very few specific you never do this and only do that way to build a roster.  It all depends.  

 

A.  If your team sucks, just ride that, hope to get the top pick in the draft or the next pick and hope its the right draft for a QB ala Cincy.

 

B.  You can do what the Chiefs did, have your eye on a QB for multiple years who isn't per se on everyone's radar and do the best to get said QB in the draft. 

 

C.  if you are sort of in no man's land, like us typically, where we've been picking something in that 9-18 range typically, if you love the upcoming draft and like what some perceive is the 3-5th best Qb and assume that dude falls to your pick -- like Dan did with Haskins alas it was the wrong dude to wait for -- then play that card.

 

D.  If these cards aren't in play and you have a rare shot to get a franchise QB and you have to pay big to get that QB, assuming you love that QB, go get them.  Yes, IMO you can survive the loss of capital if you get the right guy.   The bigger risk is actually to do what we did in 2012 which is spend big draft capital for an unproven QB, yeah RG3 didn't kill the cap, but because of the draft capital you expended you had to ride that ship for a few years (wasted time) and you didn't have the draft capital to find a new young guy for years. 

 

I think there are a bunch of creative ways to be aggressive and I am not stuck on any one of these approaches.  It all depends on context.  For example if I liked the depth of the 2023 QB class and liked a dude that isn't per that obvious like the Chiefs felt about Mahomes -- then its fine IMO to pick a guy this year and if he doesn't work swing high next year and pass on everything else.  If conversely, i didn't like the depth of the 2023 class, then I swing harder now for a veteran.

 

My point is I don't think there are many hard and fast rules to get bogged down in.  It all depends on context.  But the bottom line is either keep swinging often or swing really hard until you get that guy.  The days of winning a SB with a game manager are borderline gone -- I am sure every once inawhile it will happen.  There are always outliers.  But living in hope on an outlier isn't IMO a smart way to play this.  And its a rodeo we've already played many times and its failed.

 

I don't think ANY of the teams with top 10 QBs that are paying big money for said QBs are jealous about teams like us just because our cap isn't as consumed by that spot. 

 

Some personnel guys have said its actually harder to pay for a killer supporting cast and keep that going than the QB.  

 

Yes there is give and take in any move you make.  But the bottom line is teams with QBs like Daniel jones, Heinicke, Andy Dalton aren't hoisting any Lonbardi Trophies.  I don't think its a coincidence that if you look at the Vegas SB odds for next year its about the teams with QBs, only exception is Denver and I bet that's because Vegas expects them to land Rodgers.

Edited February 14, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Peregrine]

14 hours ago, NickyJ said:

The game tonight is why I'd trade the farm for Carr. I think he's very much in the Stafford territory. Not Rodgers/Brady/Manning level, but enough to take a team deep into the playoffs and give you a fighting chance.

 

That or get a 1st overall pick to draft someone named Joe. Swap the QBs and I'd say the game has the same result.

No no no, you arent understanding how to do it properly, stats, long term trends(3-4 year), variables and teamates are not important, making decisions purely based on the outcome of one playoff game and saying "See?  This is the easy formula and the only one that succeeds" is the only way

[Redskins 2021]

17 minutes ago, No Nonsense said:

No way is Jimmy G worth a 1st rounder. 

He is not, but they will probably get it.

[Dark Acre]

Ironic that some people are willing to trade 3 #1s, Payne, and Sweat for a guy who was drafted in the 3rd round.  For the selling team, that's an incredible return on investment.  If that trade goes through, imagine the amount of capital the Skimmanders would have given up to acquire *3* of the QBs in the 2012 draft and eventually get their "QB of the future" when they could've had him alone for just a 3rd (which we used, instead, on Josh Leribeus, spit).  Think about that.  Think about how the last 10 years of Washington football would've gone but for the fact that [insert epithet here].  Sickens me.

[Hitman#21]

Just now, Dark Acre said:

Ironic that some people are willing to trade 3 #1s, Payne, and Sweat for a guy who was drafted in the 3rd round.  For the selling team, that's an incredible return on investment.  If that trade goes through, imagine the amount of capital the Skimmanders would have given up to acquire *3* of the QBs in the 2012 draft and eventually get their "QB of the future" when they could've had him alone for just a 3rd (which we used, instead, on Josh Leribeus, spit).  Think about that.  Think about how the last 10 years of Washington football would've gone but for the fact that [insert epithet here].  Sickens me.

You do that deal 

[Peregrine]

Honestly, Im not sure how anyone can look at the Rams and see us just a QB away from that.  Look at Donald.  Look at their CBs.  Their D in general.  Look at their WR core.

 

The Rams were 10-6 in a tough division and 4 straight winning seasons before they got their QB.  Rivera hasnt built a shadow of that team, and he cant win in a horrid division.  If you want a QB just to get you to the playoffs for an early exit, sure.  But a QB is not going to transform us to a contender, its just going to take us from a bad team to a team that can probably make the playoffs.

[Chris 44]

2 hours ago, Skinsinparadise said:

If we get Jimmy G, top 10?  😀

 

 

I initially looked through the list and didnt see us...then realized I should have been looking for "Commanders". This might take a while to get used to.

[Skinsinparadise]

2 hours ago, Voice_of_Reason said:

Totally agree.  The Rams and Broncos are examples of "attacking success" and both got SBs out of it.  Manning was way past his prime, but the Broncos team that won the SB was L-0-A-D-E-D elsewhere, especially on defense.  And they were mostly FAs. 

 

The common denominator is if you use all of your assets, draft picks, players and cap, aggressively, AND you are right, you can have huge success.  But you have to be right, otherwise it's going to be painful, because you won't have the assets to re-build.  

 

The Rams haven't picked in the first round since they selected Goff with the #1 overall in 2016.  And I don't think they will again until 2024.  They've traded picks and signed FAs at an alarming rate.  And it paid off.

 

What Danny did in 2000 was the predecessor to this philosophy.  The problem was, he chose poorly.  (insert knight from Indiana Jones and the Last Crusade here).  Being aggressive is fine.  But he went out and signed the 1995 pro-bowl team in 2000.  That's an oops.  

 

Other teams have tried to do it also, and have failed.  

 

But if you're smart about it, and you have a plan, it CAN work.  

 

The Rams will, eventually, have to pay the piper, because you can't keep putting cap hits off indefinitely.  But at this point, it's worth it.  They have a SB. 

 

 

I am not a big fan of some of what the Rams do.  For example trading two first rounders for Ramsey.  Yuck. Ditto a 2nd for Sammy Watkins a 1st for Brandin Cooks, etc.   But its different when it comes to the QB spot.  

 

My point is squarely on the QB spot.  Just that spot.   I don't care how loaded a roster you got, see current Denver, current Browns, etc -- you are very unlikely to be winning a SB or become a consistent winner with just a guy at QB.  And the rare times that teams have pulled it off, they tended to move on from said QBs and tried up upgrade.

 

Danny has never tried the route of getting an elite QB.  I like to compare Dan to Steinbrenner.  It reminds me of how the Yankess would overspend for 2nd tier starting pitchers in the 1980s, and they shockingly could in turn never find an ace.  In the 1990s they aimed higher for guys like David Cone who were actually genuine aces and surprise they found a real ace.

 

Mark Brunell, Alex Smiith, Donovan McNabb weren't top 10 QBs.  They weren't the equivalent of landing an ace pitcher.  Instead if was the Yankees 80s approach, aging 2nd tier starters.

 

Same say Russell Wilson is the same old same old.  Far from it.  Russell Wilson is a novelty.  New terrain.  Apples to oranges.  Seattle doesn't IMO have a roster as good as ours.  Yet they have much better SB odds with Vegas.  the reason why is obvious. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Skinsinparadise

[Riggo#44]

4 minutes ago, Peregrine said:

Honestly, Im not sure how anyone can look at the Rams and see us just a QB away from that.  Look at Donald.  Look at their CBs.  Their D in general.  Look at their WR core.

 

The Rams were 10-6 in a tough division and 4 straight winning seasons before they got their QB.  Rivera hasnt built a shadow of that team, and he cant win in a horrid division.  If you want a QB just to get you to the playoffs for an early exit, sure.  But a QB is not going to transform us to a contender, its just going to take us from a bad team to a team that can probably make the playoffs.

You do realize we win 7 games this past year with the hardest schedule in the league per DVOA, with a litany of injuries, Taylor Heinicke at QB, and were STILL in line for the playoffs before we got ravaged by COVID at the worst possible point, right?

[Skinsinparadise]

15 minutes ago, Riggo#44 said:

You do realize we win 7 games this past year with the hardest schedule in the league per DVOA, with a litany of injuries, Taylor Heinicke at QB, and were STILL in line for the playoffs before we got ravaged by COVID at the worst possible point, right?

 

No Thomas, McKissic, Samuel, Young, Sweat for a chunk of the season.  I don't think we are a mile away.  A QB, MLB, WR would take things a long way, IMO. 

 

 

[Mrshadow008]

23 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

No Thomas, McKissic, Samuel, Young, Sweat for a chunk of the season.  I don't think we are a mile away.  A QB, MLB, WR would take things a long way, IMO. 

 

 

QB and mlb being the most important out of the three you mentioned. The WR group probably looks a lot different with elite qb play. Mcclaurin for example. Mcclaurin is the same type of meticulous worker Kupp is except mcclaurin has more natural ability. I fully believe Terry would make a Kupp level jump with good to elite qb level play. The point being that some of these guys that we look at as average could look a lot better than what they look presently. Not saying I wouldn’t want another WR cause I do just that it might not be as big a need as it looks at present. 

[Redskins 2021]

28 minutes ago, Skinsinparadise said:

 

No Thomas, McKissic, Samuel, Young, Sweat for a chunk of the season.  I don't think we are a mile away.  A QB, MLB, WR would take things a long way, IMO. 

 

 

 We are closer then we think

 

Add a Qb Marrota,Trubisky,Winston,Wentz, or Bridgewater and add a rookie.

 

Add a Wr FA or rookie easiest position to fill this year.

 

Add a MLB best one we could get if we can't get elite QB.

 

Add an OG to replace the one leaving 

 

Should be 10 win playoff team.

 

[Est.1974]

31 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

 We are closer then we think

Disagree

 

we are a .500 team that will go nowhere without a QB.

[Redskins 2021]

1 minute ago, Est.1974 said:

Disagree

 

we are a .500 team that will go nowhere without a QB.

If we add those 3 positions we will go to a ten game winner. We need to get better Qb play but this team could get a playoff spot. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[Est.1974]

3 minutes ago, Redskins 2021 said:

If we add those 3 positions we will go to a ten game winner. We need to get better Qb play but this team could get a playoff spot. 

Half the league get into the playoffs. We need a QB or the rest is noise.

[Redskins 2021]

5 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Half the league get into the playoffs. We need a QB or the rest is noise.

 We need a Qb to play at a Carr, Stafford, and Ryan level we can make some noise. I think playoffs and 10 wins is this year's goal. After this year if things don't work out we will have go all in on Qb. 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Redskins 2021

[DWinzit]

3 minutes ago, Est.1974 said:

Half the league get into the playoffs. We need a QB or the rest is noise.

Well, he did say "Add a Qb Marrota,Trubisky,Winston,Wentz, or Bridgewater and add a rookie." We may not be able to obtain a better QB option.

When you are going this route the hopes are the rookie becomes a top 10 starter plus you have a vet>TH to lead the way until the rookie is set to grab the torch. TH as QB3

That and making the other suggested roster moves does make this team much more viable to make a playoff run. Plus, you keep your future draft picks in tact. It isn't the worst situation. 

[mistertim]

15 hours ago, RWJ said:

 

 

Um...didn't the Bears offer 3 1sts + Khalil Mack for Wilson?

 

If that's not a blockbuster offer, I shudder to think how the Seahawks define "blockbuster"

[Dark Acre]

1 hour ago, Riggo#44 said:

You do realize we win 7 games this past year with the hardest schedule in the league per DVOA, with a litany of injuries, Taylor Heinicke at QB, and were STILL in line for the playoffs before we got ravaged by COVID at the worst possible point, right?

You make that trade and you're not getting Sweat back from injury (b/c he's traded), you have to replace Payne, and you're not getting 1st round (and 1st round contracts) for 3 years.  Ok.  (Disclosure, I'm a die-hard Skinmannders draft simulator junkie, so I *h8* the idea of giving up 1st round picks.)

[Hitman#21]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Um...didn't the Bears offer 3 1sts + Khalil Mack for Wilson?

 

If that's not a blockbuster offer, I shudder to think how the Seahawks define "blockbuster"

That was last season. A lot has changed. 

[Redskins 2021]

4 minutes ago, mistertim said:

 

Um...didn't the Bears offer 3 1sts + Khalil Mack for Wilson?

 

If that's not a blockbuster offer, I shudder to think how the Seahawks define "blockbuster"

That is one of the problems you can't make a trade like that without gutting your team now and in future.

 

I think I would be ok trading a draft pick as in 1 for Baker Mayfield if none of the rookie are considered good enough. 

 

 

 

Edited February 14, 2022 by Redskins 2021